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Scenario - Captain Janeway's diplomatic efforts with Species 8472 in the Voyager episode "In the Flesh" ultimately fails. Species 8472, now immune to the Voyager nanites, launches a second invasion through the space-time fissure in the Delta Quadrant, this time to completely wipe the galaxy clean of all sentient life, whether they be Borg, Federation, Dominion or otherwise.

What could happen next? Could the Star Trek galaxy stand up to them? What are the chances of victory, or even survival, of the whole galaxy?

Bonus points if anyone could propose an effective strategy to defeat Species 8472.

Unless they can come up with another superweapon against them like the nanoprobes, none of the non-superbeing factions could do much, I think. The only possible exception being the Dominion, which I think could at least bloody them a bit. Well, possibly the Hirrogen as well, since they were able to hunt down and at least temporarily capture one, but they seem too disorganized to put up a serious concerted resistance.

These things smashed the Borg easily. They'll role over the Federation in a matter of days. Ditto the Klingons (though the Klingons may take some out via suicide ramming attacks) and the Romulans. The Cardassians? Exterminated with ease. The Dominion's vast waves of canon fodder willing to engage in ramming attacks (which the Borg used to take out a bioship in Scorpion as I recall) and the shear formidability of the Changelings themselves may allow them to last a while.

Much as the 8472 wankers like to forget, the Borg were losing their war, but it wasn't a complete curb stomp. 8472 ships can be destroyed by conventional weapons. They're just hella tough and hella numerous.

The Milky Way powers have a few major advantages they can exploit in this situation.

1) Everyone's in this together. When 8472 declared their intent to purge the galaxy of all life last time, we got the first Federation/Borg alliance. The petty differences between folks like the Cardasians, Romulans or Dominion are nothing in the face of that.

2) When you make it your business to purge all life, that doesn't just include the non-omnipotents, so it isn't a question of if 8472 will step on that beehive like it is with the likes of the Empire, but when. Won't be much help to the trillions who'll die before that point, but it does mean that any end-game will not see the Milky Way purged of all life, and the best thing for 8472 is to give up their genocidal mission.

3) They're being attacked from another universe, which means that universe-destroying superweapons can actually be deployed. Even better, 8472 has already gone on all the necessary genocidal purges in their own universe making it extremely likely that moralizing superbeings aren't present in their universe for us to piss off. We still need to worry about the judgement of our native ones, but it's worth holding as a bluff at the very least. As often as they've nearly destroyed the universe on accident, it would be nice to see that be useful in at least one situation.

4) The Borg are tactical idiots who rely on their overwhelming industrial advantages to roll over less developed powers. In any alliance, the Borg can and will call for help, and will be given a seat at the "we're trying to save the universe" table alongside the likes of the Federation, Cardasians, Klingons, Hirogen and whoever else. Most of them might not be happy to see the Borg there, but the Borg will continue the alliance so long as they percieve it to be to their advantage. Borg cubes being directed by tactically competent captains and admirals from the other races will do much better against 8472 bioships.

5) It took less time for one stranded ship in the Delta Quadrant to devise the original bioweapon than it took Harry Kim to die. With the combined research capacity of the entire UFP, not to mention the other powers, a similar weapon ought to be ready by the time they even start considering opening talks with the other powers about this latest threat.

Seems to me there are several avenues to victory for the home team in this. The only differences between them are going to be how much of a mess we have to clean up after we win.

Memory Alpha article wrote:The bioships used by Species 8472 are very advanced and share their unique genetic makeup. They are living organic vessels capable of warp speed, and are very heavily armed and shielded. Inside, the walls and floor appear to be flesh; spider web-like material is used in place of an EPS system. The structural supports are made of bone. The ship's computer is similar to a nervous system and uses neuropeptides. The ships are native to fluidic space and are able to function as well in the organic matter of fluid space as they are in the vacuum of normal space. They are also equipped to detect the pressure wave created when a vessel crosses into fluidic space from normal space.
A bioship carries only one crew member, who acts as the pilot. Its hull is resistant to conventional weaponry, including Borg assimilation, and also reflects sensor scans and tractor beams. The bioships are armed with energy beam weapons. Although the beam appears less coherent than either Starfleet or Borg weapons, it is able to inflict greater damage; Voyager was knocked off course by a beam that just missed it. Nine bioships can combine their firepower using an energy focusing ship, forming a planet killer.

It is unknown whether the ships evolved naturally or if they were engineered to fit their task by Species 8472.

1) Everyone might have a common enemy but that doesn't mean they'll want to work together. The Cardassians and Romulans are too xenophobic, the Borg will want to assimilate everyone and numerous other races will be resistant for various reasons. Eventually, yes, there may be an alliance, but it won't be very stable.

2) Why would Species 8472 need to deal with omnipotent beings? I don't know if they have them in their own universe, but unless Q or other similar beings make it their business, Species 8472 honestly has no reason to give a damn.

3) Forgive me, but what weapons does Starfleet have to destroy an entire universe? I'm unaware of anything beyond planetary superweapons. Those might be potentially devestating, especially in the thicker fluid space. Protomatter might ignite a star or cause fluid space to reorganize itself, but that would be on a local basis. Unless they specifically targetted a dense concentration of Species 8472, it'll only throw a bit of chaos into their perfect little universe.

4) The Borg may call for help, but it may come at a cost. The Federation may demand that all humans assimilated be returned to Starfleet, along with any other allied personnel. The Borg may not like that, but they also know that even with their industrial might, they won't have the resources to fight Species 8472 and launch a major assault against the Alpha Quadrant. They know that if the Federation, Klingons and Romulans can work together once, they may do so again. The Borg may be strong, but they're not invincible. Any attack will only drain resources.

5) The original Voyager solution may have been a threat, but it also showed new capabilities of Species 8472. The ability to cross the galaxy and collect data means that every point in the galaxy is in danger. How do you fight an enemy that can go anywhere and even infiltrate your most secure locations? They had a hell of enough time trying to secure against the Changling threat, but now they're facing an enemy that can send ships anywhere at any time. The Dominion War was bad enough with conventional travel, but trying to be strong everywhere will only strain resources until they're broken.

There are a number of highly advanced cultures out there, such as the Voth, who are superior to the Borg and S8472.

2) Like I said. When you declare war on all of creation, that includes declaring war on the omnipotents who happen to be a part of that creation. Their stated objective in the OP includes blowing up the Organian homeworld and exterminating the Dowd.

3) The antitime erruption is potentially universe-destroying, and all the tools to start another one are still in the hands of any starfleet captain with the knowhow.

Subspace damaging weapons like Omega can potentially be of use. Even if 8472 doesn't use subspace, the results such breaches are known to have in realspace are problematic enough.

Consider the event responsible for the warp speed limit. Cause a series of Warp Core breaches to rip a hole in subspace, then you can make the thing expand to multi-lightyear scales just by running a warp drive inside the anomoly.

5) I see no evidence that 8472 can be everywhere. If they could, there would be no reason for the "Northwest passage" phenomenon Voyager encountered. If they could just arbitrarily open singularities wherever the fuck they felt like it, they would have been everywhere in Borg territory and not concentrated inside what looks for all the world like a territorial border.

This suggests that there are some requirements in terms of local conditions for opening singularities into Fluidic space, at least from their side. This would explain handily the territorial structure Voyager saw. The bioships in our universe were expanding their territory by adjusting local conditions to be more amenable to opening singularities from their side.

Species 8472, now immune to the Voyager nanites

How are they now immune to the nanites?

which the Borg used to take out a bioship in Scorpion as I recall

A full cube ramming it at warp didn't destroy it, only damaged it enough that we see it later being the ship chased down by the Hirogen. I think it’s safe to say their pretty tough cookies.

Much as the 8472 wankers like to forget, the Borg were losing their war, but it wasn't a complete curb stomp.

Wasn't it? We don't see any Species 8472 ships getting destroyed, even in big battles in which hundreds of Borg ships and planets are lost. Borg weapons appear to have no effect on them at all.

Eventually, yes, there may be an alliance, but it won't be very stable.

The bigger problem with any alliance is the lack of speed and communication capabilities between the powers. By the time the Federation even knew of the threat the Borg could be annihilated to the last drone and most of the delta and gamma quadrants put to the torch. Let alone the inability of anyone but the Borg and perhaps the Dominion to mass their fleets in sufficient time to put up a fight.

There are a number of highly advanced cultures out there, such as the Voth, who are superior to the Borg and S8472.

How are the Voth superior to either? Their only displayed ability was to transport Voyager inside their ship. As far as we know they only have the one ship and are running like shit from the Borg.

Overall unless a new nanite magic weapon can be developed the abilities shown by 8472 overwhelm any of the conventional powers in the ST galaxy.

Darth Tanner wrote:

Species 8472, now immune to the Voyager nanites

How are they now immune to the nanites?

At the end of the episode "In the Flesh" in Voyager, Captain Janeway gave away a sample of the modified Species 8472-killing Borg nanomachines to members of Species 8472 in a gesture of goodwill after they negotiated and convinced the insanely xenophobic extradimensional beings the Federation had no intention of attacking them.

Of course, them being insanely xenophobic, I personally think this action by Janeway would produce... complications. Suppose if the reports filed by those members of Species 8472 that were swayed by Janeway's good intentions did not convince the rest of the Species in Fluidic Space of the Federation's intentions, if they invade again, with immunity against the nanoprobes, then the Federation, if not the entire galaxy, would be utterly screwed.

Also, does anyone here have a good nickname for Species 8472?

SpaceMarine93 wrote:Of course, them being insanely xenophobic, I personally think this action by Janeway would produce... complications. Suppose if the reports filed by those members of Species 8472 that were swayed by Janeway's good intentions did not convince the rest of the Species in Fluidic Space of the Federation's intentions, if they invade again, with immunity against the nanoprobes, then the Federation, if not the entire galaxy, would be utterly screwed.

While their ships were tough, wasn't their main advantage that they could appear almost anywhere within that passage of space? Are they limited to entering our universe from there?

Also, does anyone here have a good nickname for Species 8472?

Star Trek Online calls them "Undine." But I don't know about "good" nick-names. Though I suppose 2 syllables is preferable to 6.

S8472 or Undine if you go with the MMO name for them would decimate the galaxy quite easily.

They can apparantly enter and leave their realm anywhere in the galaxy. We saw them building a Terradome recreation of Earth down to insane detail levels and they had more of them elsewhere across the galaxy. The lesser species in the ST galaxy would be screwed, Kazon, Ocampa etc. fully expect them to be wiped out without even a pause from S8472.

S8472 vs. The Borg: The Borg didnt get the nanoprobes which leaves them completely defenceless against an invasion and the other powers arent going to do jack to help the Borg. Even if they did... it would take 70 years for the help to arrive.
What ? The Borg are going to hand over transwarp technology to the Feds so they can charge across the galaxy to reinforce Borg territory ?
The Federation barely had the capacity to resist the Dominion on their homefront, stretching out their forces across an entire galaxy even with a grand alliance would leave them thin beyond belief.

The only way the other quadrants would find out about the invasion would be the Borg asking for assistance. The Borg didnt go doing that the last time, Voyager had to come to them so I find it quite plausible the entire Delta Quadrant could be purged before the Feds knew what was going on. With the only weapon that works against S8472 gone and the folks who MAKE that weapon exterminated, the rest of the galaxy is left using conventional means.

The idea of a 'grand alliance' is equally stupid since S8472 are more than likely going to employ changelings to undermine attempts to organise resistance. Telepaths become vunerable around S8472 as we saw Kes being used as a spy and a sufficient wound can kill you like poor Harry Kim. Between the ability to pop out anywhere they like, the firepower to obliterate entire planets and the sheer numbers that were deployed against the Borg the individual powers are going to be cubrstomped and even a unified alliance cannot defend EVERYTHING at once.

Launching an attack into S8472 realm itself - The means to get there are only known by the Borg and logic dictates they will be the first target S8472 exterminate in the campaign
Seven of Nine - She might be able to give the Feds the ability but they still dont have a weapon that can work OR what to do when they get there. We have no information how big Fluidic space is, how it works or the extent S8472 inhabit it. Fighting in Fluidic space would logically be harder for non-fluidic space residents. Their ships would not be configured for this while S8472 are and a hullbreach would cause your ship to flood.

Detonating nukes in Fluidic space ? - If it was that easy the Borg had the means to do so before Voyager showed up and thus should have been able to deploy them. It was only after Voyager offered the Nano-weapons they brought up the super-nukes for deployment.
If the Borg had the means to obliterate multiple systems in massive explosions one would have expected them to use it against S8472 long before now unless the Borg had already tried it and failed or the explosion wouldnt be enough do damage S8472 ships. Afterall, the Borg had a big corridor through their space and S8472 were crawling around inside it. A big concentration of targets in a single area and you have the means to deploy a space nuke ? - Sounds like a perfect target regardless of nano-weapons or not.

Barring the intervention of Q or equally powerful beings the galaxy is going to be eradicated without some serious ass-pull DEMs or one-shot wonders.

S8472 or Undine if you go with the MMO name for them would decimate the galaxy quite easily.

Perhaps, the question is would they have a harder time with the other 90% of the galaxy after that? [/pedantry mode]

Darth Tanner wrote: A full cube ramming it at warp didn't destroy it, only damaged it enough that we see it later being the ship chased down by the Hirogen. I think it’s safe to say their pretty tough cookies.

Mr. Tanner,

The collision did destroy that bioship, no question about it. From the script:

Scorpion Pt. II wrote: 42 JANEWAY (OPTICAL)
The ENERGY TENDRIL HITS a WALL next to her-BLOWING OUT a piece of the
WALL and sending her FALLING violently to the deck.

43 EXT. SPACE-THE BORG CUBE (OPTICAL)
COLLIDES with the bio-ship and the two EXPLODE in a devastating effect!

44 INT. VOYAGER BRIDGE
SHAKING HARD! A hair-raising moment... and then the shaking subsides.
Chakotay gets to his feet...

CHAKOTAY: The Cube?

PARIS: Destroyed... and they took the bio-ship with them.

Emphasis mine

The Hirogen hunted another ship which, if I recall, was explicitly stated as too beat up by the Borg to return to Fluidic Space with the rest of its kind.

Ah, yes! Here's the relevant quote:

Tuvok wrote: Its ship was damaged during the conflict with the Borg. When the other members of its species retreated into fluidic space it was left behind. It has been trapped in the Delta quadrant ever since, alone, pursued by Hirogen hunting parties. It has no desire for further conflict. It only wants to return to its domain. It is dying, Captain.

Again, emphasis mine

It's clear Borg ships do have the muscle to deal severe damage to bioships, but since the Collective can't really adapt to the bioships' beam weapons, cubes are killed before they can land many lethal blows.

Much as the 8472 wankers like to forget, the Borg were losing their war, but it wasn't a complete curb stomp.

Wasn't it? We don't see any Species 8472 ships getting destroyed, even in big battles in which hundreds of Borg ships and planets are lost. Borg weapons appear to have no effect on them at all.

The first bioship VGR encounters was "regenerating" from damage sustained in combat with the Borg. As Tuvok noted, the wounds in the bioship had a Borg disruptor signature. The Borg definitely hurt it, even if another bioship could sustain multiple torpedo hits without flinching.

But this ...

How are the Voth superior to either? Their only displayed ability was to transport Voyager inside their ship. As far as we know they only have the one ship and are running like shit from the Borg.

I fully agree with They might not be running from the Borg, per se, but we only saw the one City Ship. Impressive as it was, I imagine it would fall to a swarm of cubes -- something the Borg have no qualms about concerning high-priority targets close to their own space (e.g., Arcturis' species, which relied on "tricks" and "outsmarting" the Borg until that went to shit and the Collective sent "hundreds of cubes" to assimilate their culture).

Besides, chances are good the Voth and Borg never even met. Space is big

Alternately, the Borg weren't trying to destroy the Voth. The Borg could have just been farming them as we've seen them do with other species in the past. Give them just enough of a poke from time to time to get them to think that they need to improve their tech to face this latest threat, and the Borg get research done for them that they can harvest later, either in whole or through taking smaller ships and personel.

It also handily explains the "one cube" problem of them targeting the Federation. They never wanted to assimilate earth. They just wanted Earth to know how outclassed they were so that Earth would work on improving its tech so that later on down the line, the Borg would get something worth assimilating out of them.

Heck, we can even explain their utterly out of character "assimilate the past" plan in that context. They left that "temporal wake" open deliberately so that a Starfleet ship could follow them. They wanted to fail at assimilating Earth's past, so Starfleet would work on technology to safeguard their own history, which the Borg could then assimilate.

That's a great idea, except it's obvious no-one on the writing staff of TNG or VOY ever thought of it.

Which means you'd be a great writer of Star Trek. Alas, what might have been...

That would have been a really fun premise, and it adds a double meaning to that "you will adapt to service us" line.

It still doesn't get rid of the Borg Queen or the assimilation fetish that came out of nowhere, but man, thinking back to when the Borg were faceless monoliths, that's an extra layer of scary competence.

Another possibility occurs to me regarding 8472. The Borg's stated objectives aren't advanced by destroying enemy ships. What if part of the reason they were performing so poorly against the 8472 invasion was that they were still effectively "shooting to wound"?

We know that the Borg consider capturing and assimilating 8472 and their ships to be the superior end result to just destroying them all. Is it possible that the losses they were suffering were a result of them getting greedy, like with the lone drone continually trying and failing to assimilate the bioship wall?

That would also go a long way towards explaining 8472's retreat in the face of Voyager's attack on them. If their experience in this universe was that the inhabitents want to kidnap you, and will go out of their way to keep you alive in the attempt, then this random ship breaks that pattern and instead just blows the crap out of a small fleet with not even a token attempt to abduct anyone, they might've been freaked out by the percieved change in behavior more than by the weapon itself.

If they thought the Borg were going to suddenly get on a serious war footing, when they'd previously been fixated on assimilation to the point of crippling their ability to actually fight, I'd run like hell if it looked like they were going to pull that STEU "eat pluto" shit on me too.

The Borg use a rather interesting strategy to deal with threats, that is by taking elements of the threat itself and analyzing them for ways to neutralize the threat. Species 8472 defies this standard tactic, so the hardwired command to assimilate all biological targets simply doesn't work. The Borg would then need to analyze the threat in a new way, and it just so happens that Voyager presents a solution. No doubt the trillions of drones are all working through the computations trying to analyze the problem, but they'll take an easy solution when presented to them.

I'm not a Computer Science major, but I am an engineering major. When you sit down to a problem like this, you have to look at what works and what doesn't. Phasers and torpedoes are working, but can they work BETTER? Are there certain frequencies or intensities on the phaser emitters that work better? Are there better, more optimized ways to use your torpedoes? The Borg have the numbers to experiment and still attack, so they might be using the Cubes as laboratories, trying to analyze the situation. There may not be an optimized solution, but they've adapted so far, no reason for them to believe they can't do so again.

You just have to stop and think about things from the Borg point of view. They're out of their element and fighting a war in which they might even lose. Since Species 8472 can travel anywhere, the Borg are suddenly on the defensive, which is something I don't think has happened to them in a long time. If anything, I'd say this is similar to most militaries, training to fight the last war and getting your ass handed to you at first when the rules of war change. By far the best chance the galaxy has is with the Borg, because no one, and I mean no one, can stand up to Species 8472 like they can. If they don't adapt, the galaxy dies. End of story.

Demonstration of S8472 vs. Cubes

Damaged S8472 ship 'powering up' vs. Voyager

S8472 Obliterate a planet

Direct quote from the Borg about the state of the losses they are taking:

"Species 8472 has penetrated matrix 010 grid 19; eight planets destroyed, 312 vessels disabled, four million 621 Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel and take it into the alien realm."
- The Borg Collective, to Seven of Nine and the other drones aboard Voyager

Rather consistent theme of S8472 dominating the Borg and their extermination methods make it abundantly clear the Borg are on the way out with a projected defeat within 6 months if I recall.

S8472 demonstrate the ability to open their portals anywhere they please and deploy a superweapon strike against a planet. Unless you have a massive defence fleet around a world that can respond within miniutes, S8472 have ample time to roast a planet or sufficiently stationary target. Not even the Federation has demonstrated a response time that quick.
In Endgame the Feds were still in a clusterfuck with a Transwarp hub opening over Earth and didnt do jack to the Sphere that arrived. Watch from 5.45 Onwards
They have 18 ships and barely 3 of them actually shoot: You would expect the Feds to realise the a massive alpha strike would be a pretty good idea when the Borg first show up.

S8472 had a massive corridor through Borg space that apparantly went from one end to the other which Voyager intended to run through. That corridor was packed with bioships and Borg space is vast. The implications are S8472 have an massive armada the likes of which would completely rape lesser powers as S8472 can focus their fleet even more.

The collision did destroy that bioship, no question about it. From the script:

Script is secondary to the episode itself and the episode in which the Hirogen are hunting species 8472 reused the footage of the cube ramming the 8472 ship to give the back-story for how the ship was damaged enough to prevent it fleeing back to fluidic space.

It's clear Borg ships do have the muscle to deal severe damage to bioships

Severe damage? A fleet of cubes engages perhaps just the one bioship and there was no visible damage to it and it quickly jumps to full activity to chase Voyager off. The sole crew member didn’t even bother taking part in the repair process rather going off to mutilate the survivors on the Borg ships. Whatever damage all those cubes must have inflicted must have been pretty minor to the point of being irrelevant.

S8472 had a massive corridor through Borg space that apparantly went from one end to the other which Voyager intended to run through. That corridor was packed with bioships and Borg space is vast.

I got the impression that the corridor was more a region 8472 had already wiped clean than it was actually full of their ships, the fact 8472 strike from fluidic space would not make sense if their garrisoning a vast track of space right through Borg space as well.

Darth Tanner wrote:

The collision did destroy that bioship, no question about it. From the script:

Script is secondary to the episode itself and the episode in which the Hirogen are hunting species 8472 reused the footage of the cube ramming the 8472 ship to give the back-story for how the ship was damaged enough to prevent it fleeing back to fluidic space.

Don't try to bullshit me. I just watched that episode; while they do reuse footage from "Scorpion," we NEVER see any collision in that flashback.

Besides, I also rewatched the relevant part of "Scorpion."

15:46. KABOOM! Adios, bioship. Ten seconds later: "The cube?" "Destroyed. And it took the bioship with it."

As I remembered, the script and show agree.

It's clear Borg ships do have the muscle to deal severe damage to bioships

Severe damage? A fleet of cubes engages perhaps just the one bioship and there was no visible damage to it and it quickly jumps to full activity to chase Voyager off. The sole crew member didn’t even bother taking part in the repair process rather going off to mutilate the survivors on the Borg ships. Whatever damage all those cubes must have inflicted must have been pretty minor to the point of being irrelevant.

Scorpion wrote: KIM: Something strange is going on...

TUVOK: The power signatures of those Borg vessels have terminated.

CHAKOTAY: All of them?

KIM: (nods) They're dead in the water... about five point two light
years from here.

JANEWAY: Cause?

TUVOK: Unknown.

A mystifying beat. Janeway makes a decision.

JANEWAY: (to Paris) Mister Paris, set a course for their position. Warp
two.

PARIS: Aye.

Warp 2 is so fucking slow, I don't even recall a figure for it. I do remember that warp 3 is about 40c, which will serve as an absurdly generous upper-limit.

At that rate, they'd make it to the warzone in no less than 52 days.

Let's assume Janeway changed her mind and ordered maximum warp offscreen. In the second half of "Scorpion," Chatokay said traversing 40 ly would be a five-day trip "in the wrong direction." That's ~3,000c.

At that rate, over 15 hours transpired between detecting the debris and the Voyager actually seeing it first-hand. And when they do finally board the bioship, Tuvok tells us a scorched wall, the result of a Borg disruptor beam, is regenerating itself.

Seems to me that more than fifteen HOURS (or, going strictly by Janeway's warp two order, probably over two months) is a mighty long time to regenerate from minor, almost "irrelevant" damage

Further, given that the bioship is alive and obviously capable of fixing itself, I'm uncertain why you think its pilot could necessarily hasten the repair process. Is he supposed to holler at the ceiling, "FIX YOURSELF FASTER, GODDAMNIT!" Seriously, though, whether or not he/she/it could speed things along is unknown.

Speaking of unknowns, I also see no reason to assume the 15 cubes only engaged one bioship. We know the one we saw was damaged. What do you do when you're sick or hurt? Rest. Preferably, sleep. That thing had good reason to stick around after the fight, especially if the damage is severe, like I said. While the ship repaired itself, the pilot, enraged that the "weak" Borg had bloodied his nose -- in front of his buddies, no less! -- decided to go play Tetris with drone bodyparts.

But why would other, if admittedly conjectural, bioships decide to sit around, thumbs up their asses, lollygagging about a fucking graveyard for 15 hours or 2+ months (take your pick)? They're pretty aggressive and upset about this whole Borg thing; it's highly likely healthy bioships would waste little time looking for more shit to go blow up.

I think that answers your objections.

seanrobertson wrote: At that rate, over 15 hours transpired between detecting the debris and the Voyager actually seeing it first-hand. And when they do finally board the bioship, Tuvok tells us a scorched wall, the result of a Borg disruptor beam, is regenerating itself.

Seems to me that more than fifteen HOURS (or, going strictly by Janeway's warp two order, probably over two months) is a mighty long time to regenerate from minor, almost "irrelevant" damage

That disruptor beam damage was caused on the inside of the vessel... the drone that caused it got royally fucked in exchange. Yes, the Borg have arm mounted disruptors they use off-screen.
Seven of Nine points her arm right at Chakotay in part 2 when they come in guns blazing - Additionally we have seen Seven Of Nine use directed weapons before. Survival when she fucks those other drones that got stranded or Descent when Lore's drones are seen using them.

It is far more reasonable to conclude S8472 boarded remains of the Borg ship, the Borg drone(s) tried to board and shoot the pilot. The resulting damage is getting fixed while the rest Pilot goes slaughtering drones. There is no information how long the battle actually took, when the damage to the inside of the ship occured and how severe that damage actually was beyond: Hey, the wall was hit by a Borg Disruptor.
All this demonstrates is S8472 bioships arent as tough on the inside as the outside. Hardly a surprise and completely bullshit comparison at trying to claim the Borg Cubes are able to inflict massive damage on Bioships let alone ANY damage.

S8472 sent 10 ships to attack the world Voyager was around. Only one of them is actually seen engaging while the other nine just blitz the planet.
3 cubes vs 1 initial ship and they get creamed within 1 miniute: Somehow I fail to see how this demonstrates the Borg are getting anything but decimated in exchanges
Even the initial trailer shows S8472 curbstomping two cubes between 2 - 3 shots each and the suicide cube got slammed just from a glancing blast from one of the things.
If a cube can actually engage S8472 and damage them the cube wouldnt need to go suicidal, just move in the way and then slam it with more weapons fire.

It sure seems like S8472 have much consideration for Borg firepower when they send a single ship to obliterate Voyager that completely brushes the cube aside to the point the only recourse is suicide to take it out.

Why did the bioship sit and pause on the Borg wreckage ?
- In the Flesh makes it abundantly clear some / all of the recreation they made came from BORG intelligence they gathered. Seems farily logical that intelligence would have to come from their computers, communication intercepts and ripping drones apart for info just like Picard did in First Contact.
I.E The straggler could easily be ripping through the ships drones to discover intelligence on Borg activities to improve their campaign
The thing was hardly caring much to leave defences on the ship when a poor drone is sitting trying to assimilate it over and over and over and we get a full list of all the shit that CANT be done to S8472.

Can we detect S8472 ships - Nope
Can we use a tractor beam on it - Nope
Can we detect S8472 pilots - Nope
Can scan S8472 ships or pilots - Nope
Can we beam up our crew around S8472 - Nope
Can we assimilate them - Nope
Do Borg torpedoes work against them - Nope

The direct statement from the Borg makes it abundantly clear they were getting shafted, 312 vessels disabled and 8 planets destroyed. We get a first hand look at how quickly it takes for them to destroy a planet. Based on the performance of S8472 on screen that Borg quote could be referencing just a SINGLE battle.

Don't try to bullshit me. I just watched that episode; while they do reuse footage from "Scorpion," we NEVER see any collision in that flashback.

So you admit that we see it is the exact same bioship that was rammed by the cube but must be different because of dialogue that it was destroyed earlier! Did it occur to you that Voyager assumed it was destroyed or that Tom Paris was flat out wrong, for all we know it was simply damaged and lodged inside a destroyed Borg cube. Voyager was heavily damaged prior to the ships apparent destruction and they reported the 8472 vessels was practically immune to their technology, including sensors on their first contact with them.

We see that it was the very same ship that was chasing after Voyager, there can be no doubt as there was just the one ship and in the flash back we see the exact same scene of it chasing Voyager right up until the cube starts to ram it.

Was there an argument here that you forgot to type? I'm waiting on you to show how a burned wall (Thanks for that Predator) was 'severe damage' or how a severely damaged ship was able to instantly power up and chase Voyager off.

Also its still a ship, its crew member still controls it, that likely includes damage control.

But why would other, if admittedly conjectural, bioships decide to sit around, thumbs up their asses,

I thought you said their comrade was severely damaged; leaving your friend behind in enemy space might not be a good idea? Either way from what we see of 8472s effectiveness in destroying Borg ships why would there need to be more than the one, they slaughter Borg ships at will throughout their conflict.

PREDATOR490 wrote: That disruptor beam damage was caused on the inside of the vessel... the drone that caused it got royally fucked in exchange. Yes, the Borg have arm mounted disruptors they use off-screen.
Seven of Nine points her arm right at Chakotay in part 2 when they come in guns blazing - Additionally we have seen Seven Of Nine use directed weapons before. Survival when she fucks those other drones that got stranded or Descent when Lore's drones are seen using them.

I know all about the wrist-mounted disruptors. (I won't comment on the fact that they fire pulses. Tuvok said the damage was caused by a disruptor beam.)

How do you know that's what caused the damage? If a cube's disruptor breached the hull, the inside would be messed up, too.

It is far more reasonable to conclude S8472 boarded remains of the Borg ship, the Borg drone(s) tried to board and shoot the pilot. The resulting damage is getting fixed while the rest Pilot goes slaughtering drones. There is no information how long the battle actually took, when the damage to the inside of the ship occured and how severe that damage actually was beyond: Hey, the wall was hit by a Borg Disruptor.
All this demonstrates is S8472 bioships arent as tough on the inside as the outside. Hardly a surprise and completely bullshit comparison at trying to claim the Borg Cubes are able to inflict massive damage on Bioships let alone ANY damage.

Why bother boarding the cube fragment? Intel gathering? Ah, we'll cover that later.

If, as I said, the bioship had a hole blown in it, when that happened is absolutely relevant. It could not have been before the Borg ship was destroyed; therefore, the bioship's still healing after many hours. To me, that suggests it was hurt. Badly.

You are also either misrepresenting or ignoring part of my argument. I didn't simply claim "Scorpion" proves bioships can be severely damaged. In fact, when I entered the thread, I said:

Sean pointed out "Prey," in which Tuvok said/ wrote::
Its ship was damaged during the conflict with the Borg. When the other members of its species retreated into fluidic space it was left behind. It has been trapped in the Delta quadrant ever since, alone, pursued by Hirogen hunting parties. It has no desire for further conflict. It only wants to return to its domain. It is dying, Captain.

I went on to conclude:

It's clear Borg ships do have the muscle to deal severe damage to bioships, but since the Collective can't really adapt to the bioships' beam weapons, cubes are killed before they can land many lethal blows.

Only when Tanner tried to dismiss the "Prey" quote did I start in on "Scorpion." And the former quote is gold. We see what happens when a cube rams a bioship. The bioship goes ... how did I put it? KABOOM?

Yes, that's it: KABOOM! So let's not have any of that "Oh, the Borg rammed it but it didn't die" stuff, please.

The most logical conclusion is that the Borg crippled the bioship to the point it could never restore itself back to optimal performance. Sort of like if you severed my right leg at the knee. I'd stop bleeding and "regenerate" with some timely medical intervention, but I'd never be able to grow my lower leg back.

Then, after a long time of running from Borg space, it stumbled into the Hirogen. They found it was enormously powerful, but not strong enough to wipe out many hunting parties before word got around the hunting ground, "For a good time, chase this squid-looking bastard." By that point, it lacked the punch to even knock out Tony Todd's ship -- or, at least, the little pack he hung out with. He pursued it for 50 light years before it made its last stand.

S8472 sent 10 ships to attack the world Voyager was around. Only one of them is actually seen engaging while the other nine just blitz the planet.
3 cubes vs 1 initial ship and they get creamed within 1 miniute: Somehow I fail to see how this demonstrates the Borg are getting anything but decimated in exchanges

You're changing the subject. I said the Borg had the might to cause severe damage to a bioship. I never said they weren't getting their asses kicked six ways from Sunday, dude.

Even the initial trailer shows S8472 curbstomping two cubes between 2 - 3 shots each and the suicide cube got slammed just from a glancing blast from one of the things.
If a cube can actually engage S8472 and damage them the cube wouldnt need to go suicidal, just move in the way and then slam it with more weapons fire.

False dichotomy. It could be that the lone cube could damage the bioship, but it would be destroyed before it could deliver such damage ... kind of like I said in my first post in the thread

By the way, I never said ONE Borg Cube could dish out said severe damage. I just said the Borg SHIPS, plural, obviously had the might to do so, as demonstrated by the very appearance of a bioship in "Prey."

It sure seems like S8472 have much consideration for Borg firepower when they send a single ship to obliterate Voyager that completely brushes the cube aside to the point the only recourse is suicide to take it out.

Correction: they aren't worried about one cube's firepower. After five months of fighting the Collective, I think they'd figured out their bioships were superior on a per-unit basis

Why did the bioship sit and pause on the Borg wreckage ?
- In the Flesh makes it abundantly clear some / all of the recreation they made came from BORG intelligence they gathered. Seems farily logical that intelligence would have to come from their computers, communication intercepts and ripping drones apart for info just like Picard did in First Contact.
I.E The straggler could easily be ripping through the ships drones to discover intelligence on Borg activities to improve their campaign
The thing was hardly caring much to leave defences on the ship when a poor drone is sitting trying to assimilate it over and over and over and we get a full list of all the shit that CANT be done to S8472.

The Borg couldn't assimilate the ship. And why bother turning on some active defense system to fend off drones?

A. The Borg weren't trying to destroy it from the inside. That would kind of fuck up the efforts of the drone trying to assimilate it, no?
B. Who says the Eights have active defense systems in their ships anyway? They'd be among a precious few in Trek who did!

For that matter, why would that lone pilot spend hours upon hours fucking about with intelligence-gathering when, according to you, 8472's campaign saw them stomping around Borg space with the GOD mode turned on? How can they improve upon complete domination?

I also sincerely doubt their facsimile of Starfleet HQ comes from largely from information they gathered from the Borg. For one, why would they go mucking about old data records about the far-distant Starfleet -- assuming, of course, the Eights can tell a data node from a toilet in the first place.

In the end, we can forget all about "Scorpion" and focus on "Prey." A bioship was damaged in combat with the Borg. If y'all wold have me believe that means very minor damage, and the Hirogen's little two-man hunting ships are almost totally responsible for the state of that bioship when Tony Todd forces it into a last stand ...

All I could say is, would you be taking the piss out of me, or what?

Can we detect S8472 ships - Nope
Can we use a tractor beam on it - Nope
Can we detect S8472 pilots - Nope
Can scan S8472 ships or pilots - Nope
Can we beam up our crew around S8472 - Nope
Can we assimilate them - Nope
Do Borg torpedoes work against them - Nope

Sure. A couple or handful of torpedoes didn't destroy a bioship. Therefore, no amount of Borg torpedoes can hurt them. You know as well as I, that's practically THE definition of a No-Limits Fallacy.

The direct statement from the Borg makes it abundantly clear they were getting shafted, 312 vessels disabled and 8 planets destroyed. We get a first hand look at how quickly it takes for them to destroy a planet. Based on the performance of S8472 on screen that Borg quote could be referencing just a SINGLE battle.

I was tempted to agree, but I doubt the Borg would have eight habitable planets in one system; thus, I figure we're probably looking at a couple or few engagements. (All we know for sure is that shit went down in Matrix 010, Grid 19. Sometimes Grid numbers do seem to refer to single systems, like Species 10026 at Grid 532. We have heard more precise units, such as Species 6339's origin -- Grid 124, Octant 22 Theta.)

In any case, you are certainly on the right track. That sit-rep was certainly not about the Collective's cumulative losses; Seven states that the Eights destroyed hundreds of Borg planets in "Prey."

Spread out over five months of fighting ... hmm. I'm not yet sure what to make of that. They can blow up a planet in less than a minute. If we assume they destroyed 500 planets, they had almost 13 million minutes to do so. At that rate, they averaged one planet per 26,000 minutes, equal to 433 hours or ~18 days if my math's correct. Subjectively, that seems a little slow to me for someone meeting next to no resistance

Since folks are splitting hairs finer than since Bill Clinton argued about the meaning of "is," I leave you with this bit of semantics:

Prey wrote: CHAKOTAY: Six months ago, this species invaded our galaxy with thousands of ships. We were barely able to fight them off.
JANEWAY: Your prey could indicate another invasion. If it does, we're all in trouble. How many ships have you seen?
ALPHA: Only one. Damaged. We tracked it across fifty light-years. We thought that we had killed the creature but this prey is unlike any other. It has many lives. Lower the force field and I will finish the hunt.
SEVEN: Your attempt to destroy it will fail. Species 8472 is highly resistant to all technology. All but one. Borg nanoprobes.

Highly resistant, not invulnerable. Also note that, FWIW, the bioship was already damaged when Tony Todd first encountered it.

The TL;DR version is simple enough: a bioship was damaged badly enough by the Borg that it couldn't go home. The Voyager, a practical joke next to the might of a bioship, could open a conduit to Fluidic Space. That tells me the Borg DID inflict severe damage on that bioship. Whether it was dealt by some monster-cube we've never seen or multiple ships is open to speculation.

Darth Tanner wrote:

Don't try to bullshit me. I just watched that episode; while they do reuse footage from "Scorpion," we NEVER see any collision in that flashback.

So you admit that we see it is the exact same bioship that was rammed by the cube but must be different because of dialogue that it was destroyed earlier! Did it occur to you that Voyager assumed it was destroyed or that Tom Paris was flat out wrong, for all we know it was simply damaged and lodged inside a destroyed Borg cube. Voyager was heavily damaged prior to the ships apparent destruction and they reported the 8472 vessels was practically immune to their technology, including sensors on their first contact with them.

We see that it was the very same ship that was chasing after Voyager, there can be no doubt as there was just the one ship and in the flash back we see the exact same scene of it chasing Voyager right up until the cube starts to ram it.

For fuck's sake I admit no such thing.

You're seriously telling me Paris was WRONG when he said the cube took the bioship with it, all on the basis of this stupid "Tuvok read an 8472's thoughts and saw shit" basis?

Tuvok ALSO saw three bioships exiting a so-called "singularity." Was the Eight in question taking snapshots of his buddies entering the Milky Way? Did he have an out-of-body experience?

Some fucking psychic vision of things is totally unreliable. The images Tuvok "saw" could have been his mind interpreting what the Eight tried to communicate to him. Kind of like Chakotay seeing visions of DS9 shooting at Klingons when he joined with that bald chick's "cooperative." Everyone participating in that vision were assimilated a LONG time before the Klingons menaced DS9, so it's safe to say these psychic links involve a good amount of self-interpretation.

In any case, if you're telling me the bioship Paris said was destroyed actually SURVIVED a crash and explosion in which we SEE the bioship go up in flames, you are fucking NUTS.

Was there an argument here that you forgot to type?

No, jackass, you interrupted me before I OBVIOUSLY MADE MY FUCKING POINT. Why else would I go on to quote a script and break it down, Captain "severe, oh, that's too much!!!!!" Nitpick?

I'm waiting on you to show how a burned wall (Thanks for that Predator) was 'severe damage' or how a severely damaged ship was able to instantly power up and chase Voyager off.

Psh. Yeah, that ship hung around the debris field for OVER a dozen hours, gathering "intel," and a Borg drone happened upon it and shot at the ship's interior. I guess the pilot stood around for hours while he waited to board the flotsam, too

Pathetic.

But then, to correct your dishonest ass, I didn't say the ship was "severely damaged" when it blasted the Voyager, did I?

Quote me where I said that or concede the point, please. I'm tired of people refusing to admit when they're this off-base. At this point, with everything going on in my day-to-day life, I'm only too happy to bring a moderator's attention to this mess.

Also its still a ship, its crew member still controls it, that likely includes damage control.

Goddamn are you hard-headed. The ship was healing itself while the pilot was traipsing about the cube fragment. If you have proof that it being present whilst the ship regenerates hastens the process (as stupid and fucking superfluous as all of this "Scorpion" shit is given what I said to Preds), please, present it.

But why would other, if admittedly conjectural, bioships decide to sit around, thumbs up their asses,

I thought you said their comrade was severely damaged; leaving your friend behind in enemy space might not be a good idea? Either way from what we see of 8472s effectiveness in destroying Borg ships why would there need to be more than the one, they slaughter Borg ships at will throughout their conflict.[/quote]
[/quote]

ROTFLOL. You even DEIGN to broach the idea of inconsistency to me?! Your argument requires that the Borg can't hurt bioships, then you turn around and try to lambast ME for other bioships not sticking around to protect their poor, wounded pal?

Christ, dude. There's honor in admitting you're wrong. Unless you're seriously ready to stand before me and claim, in spite of the RIDICULOUS coincidence, the ship Seven's cube rammed AND Paris reported destroyed MUST be the same one we see in "Prey," please -- admit yourself to the nearest asylum, 'cause what you're saying is beyond crazy.

You're seriously telling me Paris was WRONG when he said the cube took the bioship with it, all on the basis of this stupid "Tuvok read an 8472's thoughts and saw shit" basis?

Yes as that’s what the episode quite clearly shows us. The explosion in Scorpion shows the Borg cube going up while the 8472 ship gets caught up in it and is spun out of control. We don't see any of the aftermath. If you don't want to accept this because it is admittedly from a telepathic exchange then that’s that but you can't deny that’s what the direct evidence shows. It’s not like it radically changes 8472s capabilities, the ship was still crippled by the ram if not destoryed.

In any case, if you're telling me the bioship Paris said was destroyed actually SURVIVED a crash and explosion in which we SEE the bioship go up in flames, you are fucking NUTS.

We see it enveloped in the explosion of the cube, considering the endurance it shows in relation to Borg firepower I see no reason it couldn’t have survived that, we know it was sufficiently crippled by the collision that it ultimately can't flee to fluidic space or defeat the Hirogen with its remaining firepower.

Psh. Yeah, that ship hung around the debris field for OVER a dozen hours, gathering "intel," and a Borg drone happened upon it and shot at the ship's interior. I guess the pilot stood around for hours while he waited to board the flotsam, too

Er he obviously left his ship with the door open, we see a Borg repeatedly trying to assimilate the door hatch, that drone that was already inside must have been attacked quite early in his boarding as he was already covered in the orange goo lines that Harry didn't show for some time. As we have no information what so ever on how the 8472 ships regeneration works it’s impossible to say how long it would have taken to repair the disrupter damage on the inside or how bad it was originally as we simply don’t have the information.

But then, to correct your dishonest ass, I didn't say the ship was "severely damaged" when it blasted the Voyager, did I?

Ok conceded. But we see no evidence it was severely damaged earlier, we only know that there was some damage that was regenerating on the inside of the door.

At this point, with everything going on in my day-to-day life, I'm only too happy to bring a moderator's attention to this mess.

Maybe you should calm down if a bit of disagreement on a forum about aliens causes your head to explode and start threatening me with moderator action.

ROTFLOL. You even DEIGN to broach the idea of inconsistency to me?! Your argument requires that the Borg can't hurt bioships, then you turn around and try to lambast ME for other bioships not sticking around to protect their poor, wounded pal?

You are the one who insisted the Species 8472 was not alone at that battle and that the only reason he was still there was he was too damaged to leave. You failed to address the fact that as Predator said he could have bee gathering intel or just having a good time butchering drones and piling their bodies up in a sculpture. We see from the single ship that chased after Voyager and the Borg cube that did the ram that 8472 do solo engagements.

However in favour of your idea Voyager lost contact with the cubes all at once, that would imply a larger 8472 force capable of killing off all the cubes in short order rather than just the one picking them off one at a time.

Only when Tanner tried to dismiss the "Prey" quote did I start in on "Scorpion

What Prey quote have I dismissed? Your quote said the ship was damaged in the battle with the Borg. It was! By a cube ramming it, how does that invalidate your quote? I’m more than prepared to admit however that as it was only shown in a telepathic exchange that it was in fact a different ship that Tuvok visualised as the only ship they do see damaged as it’s not exactly a major point in this thread or to 8472 capabilities. If the Borg can ram one ship they can after all ram more.

in spite of the RIDICULOUS coincidence,

Hows it a coincidence, throughout all the engagements shown the Borg are powerless to harm Species 8472, when they give a report of their huge losses at Matrix 010 they don’t say they took any 8472 ships with them, their weapons are obviously massively below par when dealing with this threat, ramming is the only tactic we see with any effectiveness.

Therefore, no amount of Borg torpedoes can hurt them. You know as well as I, that's practically THE definition of a No-Limits Fallacy.

Clearly 8472 must have some limit on their endurance but the Borg ships we see don’t survive their massive firepower advantage long enough to reach it with their weapons.

How can they improve upon complete domination?

Presumably the only thing they would need to know is where the Borg planets are, they didn’t find Unimatrix 001 or the transwarp hubs which would be obvious targets so perhaps they were not that successful at gathering intel after all.