Page 1 of 3

14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 08:23am
by SpaceMarine93
To many, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine proves to be a series that had left a very deep impression upon Trek fans: it introduced to us many darker aspects of the Star Trek universe in addition to its well-developed characters and its original, complex plots: The Dominion War, Section 31, political intrigue, a hidden greater struggle between two ancient alien species in the Bajorian wormhole with plenty of religious connotations. But one particular episode of the series seems to stand out the most.

"In the Pale Moonlight" was frequently praised as one of the most dramatic episodes of Star Trek, and holds the title of being the darkest, and it's not surprising: In that episode, frustrated over the losses the Federation is taking in the Dominion war, Captain Sisko enlists Garak's help to persuade the Romulans to join the Federation against the Dominion. Sisko soon learns that, to save the Federation, he must abandon the values it stands for.

To such an end, he and Garak manufactures false evidence through dubious means to persuade the neutral Romulans that the Dominion plans to conquer the Romulan Empire after they are finished with the Federation, by presenting a Federation-hating Romulan senator with a Cardassian data rod showing a fabricated hologram meeting of the Dominion leadership discussing the plans. A lot is at stake, and chances of success are uncertain.
Spoiler
However, the Romulan senator discovers the ruse, and returns to Romulus with intention to expose the deception. However, in a dramatic twist Garak had a backup plan where he blew up the shuttle carrying the senator and making it look like Dominion assasination. The plan works, and the Romulan Empire declares war on the Dominion soon after.
Sisko is distraught, realizing how much of the Federation's values he had abandoned in order to achieve this end. The episode ends however with him concluding that he can live with it, declaring with a haunting statement that "Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it."

The episode is met with critical appraisal, but many fans derided that the what Sisko did was most antithetical to Gene Roddenberry's initial views of Starfleet, the Federation and 24th century Humanity.

But in many's view, mine included, what Sisko did was right: The Federation survived the war because of this one action. But ten years later, would this assertion still stand among the fans? Was what Sisko did ultimately right? Was it "A Huge Victory for the Good Guys!" or does ends not justify the means?

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 09:19am
by Baffalo
Alright, let's suppose Sisko does nothing. The Dominion continues to pound the Federation and Klingons. They ultimately bring in the Breen, overwhelming the Federation and Klingons, and they lose. Now the Romulans are alone, and there's nothing to stop the Dominion. Or suppose the Romulans somehow saw the error of their ways. The time it took them to realize this cost the Federation and Klingons dearly. What ultimately happens is the allied powers are now weaker than if Sisko had gone ahead and forced them in.

Either way, the Dominion lost quite a bit of ground following the Romulan inclusion into the war, ground that put them, temporarily, on the defensive. That meant it gave everyone a chance to breathe and get caught up. Whether it hastened the Breen entrance into the war or not, what Sisko did was either help the Romulans enter a war they were destined to join anyway, or forced them into a war they didn't. Either way, it was the right move. Not the morally right one, but it was the right move.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 09:26am
by The Romulan Republic
It was morally wrong, and also extremely dangerous. What would happen if the Romulans found out about that? Also, as I recall he didn't do this with the authorization of the Federation Council or Starfleet. He did it on his own initiative. Laws and chains of command exist for good reason. It is a terrible idea for individual commanders to make decisions like this without consulting their superiors.

Sisko did something illegal, immoral, and dangerous. I'd court-martial him in a heartbeat.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 11:20am
by Enigma
The Romulan Republic wrote:It was morally wrong, and also extremely dangerous. What would happen if the Romulans found out about that? Also, as I recall he didn't do this with the authorization of the Federation Council or Starfleet. He did it on his own initiative. Laws and chains of command exist for good reason. It is a terrible idea for individual commanders to make decisions like this without consulting their superiors.

Sisko did something illegal, immoral, and dangerous. I'd court-martial him in a heartbeat.
Until Sisko turns around and says on what leg do they stand on. The Federation and Starfleet basically gave the approval for a biological attack on the Founders. Wasn't that also illegal, immoral and dangerous?

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 11:33am
by The Romulan Republic
Hmm, did the whole Federation government know, or did they simply go along with what some rogue agency did after the fact?

In any case, while I agree that you can make similar criticisms of that attack, at least if it was carried out by the whole Government it had more legitimacy and oversight than the actions of one rogue captain.

Also, one illegal act does not excuse another. Sisko was still guilty, even if the Federation government was as well.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 11:45am
by Ryan Thunder
I would say that Sisko and whoever authorized the biological attacks should be tried for the crimes they committed without consideration given for the end result of those crimes, even if the end result is positive.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 02:42pm
by Lost Soal
The only thing that Starfleet didn't authorise, because no one else knew about it, was the assassination.
Sisko asked before it all started and they said yes, trick the Romulans and get them on our side. Garek was the only one who knew he was going to kill the Senator, no one can prove it and if anyone in high command even suspected it then they didn't ask questions because doing so would throw the Romulans into the arms of the Dominion.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 03:11pm
by Connor MacLeod
I dont think they tried to show that what Sisko did was morally right or justified or even 'legal' - that was part of the drama. Sisko knew he was doing a whole bunch of things that were morally wrong, but he was willing to sacrifice his own honor and integrity on the altar of his perceived duty. To him, his honour ment less than the fact that millions or even billions could die if he didn't do what he could to bring the Romulans in.

What only strengthens that (and makes this episode stand out) is that it is one of those Trek episodes that does not try to tiptoe around this somehow. They don't try to make an easy out, or try to make it seem like Sisko's decision whas inherently right becaues he made it, or anything silly like that. It WAS presented as a hard decision, and they stuck with it. It echoes Voyager's episode "The Thaw' in that same way.

I also don't think its one of those episodes where you are supposed to be able to absolutely decide whether he is right or wrong.. its left open to people's interpretations.

Edit: I'm also reminded of General Chang from STVI. He has something along those lines too.. he's a bad guy, yet the way he is characterized in the movie and the reasons why he and the others act make him more of a sympathetic character than some sort of stereotype mustache twirling villain. I always found it hard not to like Chang depsite knowing he is the bad guy.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 06:48pm
by Alyeska
Lost Soal wrote:The only thing that Starfleet didn't authorise, because no one else knew about it, was the assassination.
Sisko asked before it all started and they said yes, trick the Romulans and get them on our side. Garek was the only one who knew he was going to kill the Senator, no one can prove it and if anyone in high command even suspected it then they didn't ask questions because doing so would throw the Romulans into the arms of the Dominion.
Bingo. Thats the answer right there. Its often overlooked in the episode, but Sisko was in contact with Starfleet command for much of his work. I am certain he was talking to only a single individual who probably didn't spread his ideas around, but Sisko was working under the guidance of Starfleet command.

The only rogue action taken was by Garrak, for which Sisko literally assaulted him for. At this point Sisko almost certainly told Starfleet command of what happened and they filed it away.

What Sisko did was wrong. Ironically, actions like these are almost certainly done by Intelligence agents in the real world today. It is called a necessary evil. Morality is relative. Absolutes are few. Sisko sacrificed his honor to save billions. And the episode didn't pull any punches. There was no happy ending. Sisko can live with his actions, but he still feels the guilt. I believe a psychiatrist would say Sisko his healthy. His guilt is a fundamentally healthy thing because because it is telling of his character.

Some times society asks us to do things we detest. Its a hard thing to consider. That is why this episode is so compelling.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 07:06pm
by Nephtys
Gene Roddenberry's vision is bollocks.

Sisko did everything right, and even in a moral way. Because every action he took was preferable in consequence to inaction by such a staggering amount. It was a bad situation, and he /had/ to try to do something, because the Federation was at the brink of losing the war. And with it down, the Alpha Quadrant would likely go with it.

So the price of lying a few times, the death of one already condemned criminal and one foreign official (and his 4 bodyguards conveniently forgotten), is a small price to pay when it offers hope that millions more won't die as a result of a disastrous war.

Sisko is indeed a morally stronger man than Picard, who would never do such a thing. It takes courage to go beyond what is conventionally moral in a small scale, to do what's necessary to protect millions of others from a clear and imminent danger.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 07:15pm
by The Romulan Republic
Wrong. The outcome is only better even in a military sense than inaction if we assume (or have the benefit of knowing how it turns out) that it will work. As already noted in this thread, if it got out what happened, it could have caused the Romulans to join the Dominion.

Edit: to say nothing of the political and moral losses due to losing Sisko's reputation. He's a war hero, one of their top commanders, and the Bajoran Emissary. Can you imagine the reaction if Starfleet had court-martialled him?

I find that this is generally a point where real politik falls flat on its metaphorical ass: when you stop thinking purely in terms of short-term gain and start looking at the big picture.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 07:48pm
by Captain Seafort
The Romulan Republic wrote:I find that this is generally a point where real politik falls flat on its metaphorical ass: when you stop thinking purely in terms of short-term gain and start looking at the big picture.
The big picture is that the alliance was losing and losing badly. Their options were to either get some serious reinforcements, pronto, or accept that the war was effectively over. Yes, Sisko's approach to things was very risky, and could have backfired, but it wouldn't have materially changed the outcome if the Romulans had figured out what happened.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 08:05pm
by The Romulan Republic
Another power with a large fleet of cloaked ships joining the Dominion wouldn't have made a big difference? Yeah, I'm somewhat sceptical of that.

Yes, they were losing the war. But unless the Romulans would have joined the Dominion anyway, Sisko took a hell of a risk.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-02 08:44pm
by Nephtys
The Romulan Republic wrote:Another power with a large fleet of cloaked ships joining the Dominion wouldn't have made a big difference? Yeah, I'm somewhat sceptical of that.

Yes, they were losing the war. But unless the Romulans would have joined the Dominion anyway, Sisko took a hell of a risk.
He did take a hell of a risk. But look at it from his perspective: The central federation worlds were being taken, and rapidly. It wasn't even a drawn out fight. Betazed's defenses got taken out in hours, and several fleets from early in the war were now combat ineffective, while the Dominion had lost nothing of value. Cardassia and other major staging areas were effectively untouched, while it's a matter of time before the Dominion won.

If the Romulans join the Dominion, then the Feds still lose. It may be quicker and more certain, but the Dominion already were likely winning if the Feds were on the defensive and losing bad. But by gaining the Romulans, they opened up a new front which as predicted, was enough to throw off the Dominion offensive and let the Feds/Klingons get their footing.

In a more moderate situation, what Sisko does may be questionable, even reckless. But the situation was depicted at this point to be incredibly desperate.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-03 06:59am
by Captain Seafort
The Romulan Republic wrote:Another power with a large fleet of cloaked ships joining the Dominion wouldn't have made a big difference? Yeah, I'm somewhat sceptical of that.
Dominion vs Federation/Klingon alliance = Federation/Klingon alliance loses

Dominion + Romulans vs Federation/Klingon alliance = Federation/Klingon alliance loses

Ergo, no material difference.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-03 02:56pm
by Connor MacLeod
If anything having the Romulans throw in with the Dominion would probably end the war quicker, since the Federation-Klingon alliance becomes even more outnumbered than they were prior to Sisko's little trick. They'd still lose, but there's a hope that they suffer fewer casualties than if the war was drawn out.

it's hardly the sort of thing oyu want to go for, but if they're going to lose without the Romulans anyhow ending it quickly can't hurt.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-04 11:29am
by Patrick Degan
Starfleet couldn't court-martial Sisko even if they wanted to. Captains in the field have been allowed a wide latitude to action in the past, and these actions can as easily be classed under the aegis of wartime counter-intelligence and deception. The assassination of the Romulan senator was entirely Garak's initiative, and Garak made certain that no link between Sisko and the crime would exist. Sisko has plausible deniability. Not enough evidence exists to base charges upon. So, no court-martial. Especially as it would be politically impossible in the wake of the Allied victory.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-04 11:51am
by Crazedwraith
Patrick Degan wrote:Starfleet couldn't court-martial Sisko even if they wanted to. -snip- Especially as it would be politically impossible in the wake of the Allied victory.
Especially in the wake of the Allied victory since Sisko was effectively dead after that. Posthumous court martials are a waste of everyone's valuable time

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-05 11:46am
by JME2
The novel Hollow Men acted as a sequel to the episode and addressed lingering threads. Here were my thoughts from last year:
IIRC -- and it's been a couple of years since I read it, so may be wrong -- Starfleet approved of the plan to trick Vreenak, but they didn't know the full extent.

Sisko, who's still struggling with his guilt and is ready to turn himself in - comes clean with Admiral Ross, whose response is, "So?"

As he points out, they need the Romulans to win the war and they sure as hell weren't going to tell them or persecute Sisko for his role.
Anyway, as I said then, the Vreenak Affair was something I always thought was going to come back to bite Sisko in the ass during the second half of Season 6 or even during the Final Chapter. It seemed like they were setting it up for the excrement to eventually hit the oscillator.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-05 08:20pm
by Cesario
JME2 wrote:The novel Hollow Men acted as a sequel to the episode and addressed lingering threads. Here were my thoughts from last year:
IIRC -- and it's been a couple of years since I read it, so may be wrong -- Starfleet approved of the plan to trick Vreenak, but they didn't know the full extent.

Sisko, who's still struggling with his guilt and is ready to turn himself in - comes clean with Admiral Ross, whose response is, "So?"

As he points out, they need the Romulans to win the war and they sure as hell weren't going to tell them or persecute Sisko for his role.
Anyway, as I said then, the Vreenak Affair was something I always thought was going to come back to bite Sisko in the ass during the second half of Season 6 or even during the Final Chapter. It seemed like they were setting it up for the excrement to eventually hit the oscillator.
Pity the entire Romulan government imploded before this could happen.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-05 08:48pm
by Alyeska
You know, Nemesis should have taken backstory from "In the Pale Moonlight". Give it to Nicholas Meyers for another go at the helm of Star Trek.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-14 10:31am
by CaptainChewbacca
I always figured the truth behind the Romulan entry into the war would show up on the Federation's equivalent of the History Channel 50-100 years after the end of the war in a special called 'The Lie that Won the War' after its all declassified.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-14 02:20pm
by Captain Seafort
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I always figured the truth behind the Romulan entry into the war would show up on the Federation's equivalent of the History Channel 50-100 years after the end of the war in a special called 'The Lie that Won the War' after its all declassified.
Unlikely. While the fact that the data stick was a forgery would probably come out eventually (given that that was the aspect of the plan that Starfleet OK'd), only Sisko and Garak knew what happened to Vreenak's shuttle. With Sisko dead and Garak unlikely to be overly helpful, it's likely that the explosion will be ascribed to a malfunction rather than a bomb, and it won't be revealed that Vreenak realised the deception.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2011-12-14 09:00pm
by Cesario
Captain Seafort wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I always figured the truth behind the Romulan entry into the war would show up on the Federation's equivalent of the History Channel 50-100 years after the end of the war in a special called 'The Lie that Won the War' after its all declassified.
Unlikely. While the fact that the data stick was a forgery would probably come out eventually (given that that was the aspect of the plan that Starfleet OK'd), only Sisko and Garak knew what happened to Vreenak's shuttle. With Sisko dead and Garak unlikely to be overly helpful, it's likely that the explosion will be ascribed to a malfunction rather than a bomb, and it won't be revealed that Vreenak realised the deception.
Until someone in a hundred years decides to do some direct historical research using time travel technology. Surely the events surrounding that data rod would be a lot more interesting once it's learned it's a fake and the question of who and how are lingering historical mysteries.

We have an example of Kirk being sent on just such a historical research mission in TOS.

Though given how these things turn out, the researchers will probably find out the whole thing wouldn't have worked at all if they hadn't been there to correct one tiny flaw.

Re: 14 years on: Revisiting "In the Pale Moonlight"

Posted: 2012-02-15 04:42pm
by Cowl
The episode is met with critical appraisal, but many fans derided that the what Sisko did was most antithetical to Gene Roddenberry's initial views of Starfleet, the Federation and 24th century Humanity.

But in many's view, mine included, what Sisko did was right: The Federation survived the war because of this one action. But ten years later, would this assertion still stand among the fans? Was what Sisko did ultimately right? Was it "A Huge Victory for the Good Guys!" or does ends not justify the means?
If memory serves, Garak was the chief architect of this ruse. Sisko was but a willing participant, and at times facilitated the process, but was mostly a hapless spectator. Towards the end, in his typical undisciplined and unruly manner, he physically accosted Garak over this perceived slight to his honor. "How could you." A phaser set to incinerate would have been the proper response by Garak. Not only was Sisko the prophet hopelessly hypocritical in his self-righteous indignation, but also hysterically pompous, as per usual. In the end he didn't really care about those lost Romulan lives, only about his frail egotistical vanities. Later he rationalized the affair to himself, but the egomaniacal tenor was present throughout his monologues.

Anyway, it's difficult to lend credence to such an artifice being successful. We're talking about the Romulans here. Their military analysts and superior intelligence forces would have seen through this ruse in a heartbeat.