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You, know, I was expecting it to be like re-watching the first two seasons of TNG; Awkward, pompous, pretentious, loud.

I am 8 episodes in to season 2 (Necessary Evil) and have been far more than pleasantly surprised.
Outside of Sisko being a little... off, (the smoothness of Hawk and his goatee haven't arrived yet ) the characters all fell right into their roles as if they were in the 6th season already. The stories have all been pretty good, with a few standing out as excellent to me, "Duet" being the brightest. I also don't feel belabored by watching the first few seasons, meaning that I haven't wanted to just skip episodes to get to the later episodes.

I am wondering if the conflict with the Dominion is going to hold up with a second watching, as The Bounty Hunter's girlfriend has just made first mention of them in the last episode. I know the characters are great; Weyon, Iggy Pop, the Evil Founder lady, The Jem H'edar, but the different motivations and plans and plots... I want to see if they hold up in the context of the series.

And of course Gul fucking Dukat. Man, if he isn't the best villain in science fiction, or at least Star Trek, then I don't know who is.

I'm not sure how anyone can watch any other Star Trek series and not say that DS9 is the best of the bunch by far.

Oh and only one mention of Raktaccino so far.

So I know others here have already re-watched the series many times over since it went off the air... what are your thoughts?

Also, Dax and Kira are way hotter than Seven of Nine and Ta'Pol. Not better looking, but just all around hotter.

Havok wrote:I'm not sure how anyone can watch any other Star Trek series and not say that DS9 is the best of the bunch by far.

I'm doing the slow re-watch of Trek now - starting with TOS and intend to run through to DS9. Outside of some re-runs, when Spike had the rights to show it, I haven't watched a lot of DS9 in over ten years now. I still hold to my ranking of the shows as TOS, TNG and DS9 - in that order (with the less said about VOY and ENT, the better). But DS9, as you note, and I agree, had a superior cast to TNG's crew. The characters were more proactive, had deeper inter-personal relationships and (GASP) CONFLICTS. Sisko was a break from Kirk and Picard as a reluctant CO, who always struck me as what I imagined the "typical" Trek Captain to be like. O'Brien and Bashier made for an unexpected, but great pairing, Jadzia was my nerd crush as a kid, Quark and Odo were always compelling and Kira, while sometimes annoying, was a good, strong willed character. Fuck, even the Jake wasn't that bad (it just felt like the writers didn't know what to do with him half the time). On their own they could all hold an episode that took the time to focus on them. Compare that with the sometimes painful experience of watching the seasonal Beverly Crusher episode of TNG. Her, Geordi and Troi simply had a tendency to fall flat, when the episode had them on their own.

I also think they simply landed a really good cast. Some had solid careers before Trek. For the most part, you still see them appearing in non-Trek stuff - compare that to the Voyager and Enterprise casts, and some of the TNG crew.

I'm just sorry that we id not get at least *ONE* DS9 movie. Instead of having the series finale being the Dominion War wrap up, tweak it so it could be a movie. I'm not saying just take the finale and turn it exactly into a movie but the basic premise, sans the Pah'wraiths and so forth.

I just rewatched this with my fiancee, interestingly enough. We didn't have much negative to say. Obviously I always thought the Prophets were a little off-tone for Star Trek, but compare and contrast with "All Good Things" and the tasks the various noncorporeal beings give Sisko and Dukat are actually a lot less arbitrary than Q and his games. I also had a grudge against the show since its premise was ripped off from JMS' pitch for B5, but that's not the fault of the producers and actors.

There are also several notorious episodes that just don't work, but overall it's a remarkably smooth seven seasons. The few anomalys-of-the-week are always a way to examine the characters, rather than just be this week's plot. And the staple of recurring characters is perhaps the strongest I've ever seen on a television series, without ever overpowering the leads (well, except poor Jake). They even managed to make the best out of Terry Farrell's departure.

Yeah, DS9 is great. Gul Dukat and Garak are two of the most complicated and interesting characters in all of science fiction. Plus, Garak has all the best lines.

The only complaint I have is that I never cared for the post-TOS Klingon honor-obsessed culture; it's really grating and way too silly. Unfortunately, DS9 has a lot of that crap, especially starting with Season 4.

^ Yeah, but they give it a nice twist around season 7, when Ezri points out to Worf that it's all a sham covering over a deeply corrupt center. In fact Gowron was always a slimeball, he exploited the Klingon honor cult while being a total cutthroat himself. It's also pointed out in another episode that the Klingons' mind-boggling stupidity (rushing into wars with the Cardassians, then the Federation, THEN the Dominion, and only then allying with the Feds again) has crippled their influence in the Alpha Quadrant in the long term, leaving the future to be dominated by the Feds and the Romulans whether they like it or not.

They also made some effort to contextualize the sexism that was previously introduced into the culture in TNG (it's still not great, but more females depicted in the military and females control internal affairs of Houses, which is actually a really big deal).

And they also devoted most of an episode to what fucking bastards Klingons are when they are fighting the Federation, showing no respect to soldiers, prisoners, or civilians.

It's really that we spend most of our time with Martok and Worf, who both happen to be good people with an overly romantic view of their own culture. And Martok has seen more of its dark side, bitterly complaining about the opportunities denied him because he was "common born."

Channel72 wrote:The only complaint I have is that I never cared for the post-TOS Klingon honor-obsessed culture; it's really grating and way too silly. Unfortunately, DS9 has a lot of that crap, especially starting with Season 4.

To be fair, the Klingon conflict got forced on them by Paramount. It annoyed Behr to no end since it set their plans for the Dominion conflict back by a year.

It worked out for the best, though.

First, I greatly prefer Worf's portrayal on DS9 over TNG. He seemed more interesting as he struggled to define his place in the station hierarchy. Like TNG, DS9 still utilized Worf as the outsider looking into the TNG-era Klingon culture -- except here, the culture was deconstructed and its flaws and corruption were examined and exposed, as noted. above

Second, i introduced my favorite Klingon in the entire franchise, Martok. Actor J.G. Hertzler is the fucking man and was a great casting coup.

Third and final, the producers were ultimately able to make the Klingon invasion of Cardassia play into the overall Dominion arc. "Apocalypse Rising" revealed that a Changeling had replaced Martok and influenced Gowron's decision to invade. And of course, the damage to the Cardassian Union was one of the main factors in Dukat's negotiations to join the Dominion.

Havok wrote:Also, Dax and Kira are way hotter than Seven of Nine and Ta'Pol. Not better looking, but just all around hotter.

One of my fellow university students and sci fi fan thought I was weird when I said I thought Kira looked stunning. Glad to see I wasn't the only one. I bet you he was a Seven of Nine fan.

mr friendly guy wrote:

Havok wrote:Also, Dax and Kira are way hotter than Seven of Nine and Ta'Pol. Not better looking, but just all around hotter.

One of my fellow university students and sci fi fan thought I was weird when I said I thought Kira looked stunning. Glad to see I wasn't the only one.

Heh, I had a crush on Jadzia during the 90's.

Havok wrote:Also, Dax and Kira are way hotter than Seven of Nine and Ta'Pol. Not better looking, but just all around hotter.

I think Jeri Ryan is quite attractive. Of course, her costuming was just ridiculous. Jolene Blalock on the other hand... That self-inflicted Trout Pout is just hideous.

Well he did say they were better looking, just not as hot. That's because Seven and T'Pol had cold personalities. Kira was feisty and aggressive, and Dax was a very extraverted, fun-loving sort of woman. Although she started off as a kind of cool, collected sort of personality in the early episodes, she mellowed quite a bit and had fun.

I think the thing about DS9 that really grabs me more than most of the other trek is that it's basically a seven-year look at these people's very interesting lives. The writing really fleshes out even peripheral characters like Nog and Garak, and people grow and change as the political situation whirls around them. Just compare TNG Worf to DS9 Worf. Kira and Garak probably top out my favorite characters, though The Sisko and the Bashir/O'Brien/Garak bromance was pretty funny too. Plus, the Defiant. Tough little ship.

DrMckay wrote:Plus, the Defiant. Tough little ship.

Little?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

One thing I rather like about Deep Space Nine that's not really in TNG, TOS, Voyager or Enterprise is that it really fleshes out the Trek universe. You get to see aspects that you wouldn't see elsewhere. By that, I mean we see a Federation frontier/Bajoran school, a bar with casino, the Klingon restaurant(and I don't care if it moves, Klingon cuisine looks rather tasty). It makes it seem like a real place that one could visit or live in.

FaxModem1 wrote:One thing I rather like about Deep Space Nine that's not really in TNG, TOS, Voyager or Enterprise is that it really fleshes out the Trek universe. You get to see aspects that you wouldn't see elsewhere. By that, I mean we see a Federation frontier/Bajoran school, a bar with casino, the Klingon restaurant(and I don't care if it moves, Klingon cuisine looks rather tasty). It makes it seem like a real place that one could visit or live in.

This was the primary benefit of the stationary setting vs. on board a starship. They weren't going anywhere, so it really took the time to focus on the characters, their setting, and the cultures that crisscrossed at the station.

I think it was more that the writers realised that they could do that. After all, the Enterprise D was big enough and had a large enough crew to do all the same sort of "day in the life" stories. Granted, you wouldn't have the same sort of recurring "outsiders" like Morn, Dukat, whatshername the explorer/trader and the assorted Bajorans, but there would still have been plenty of opportunity to explore the existing Star Trek cultures as well as exploring the new races of the week.

andrewgpaul wrote:I think it was more that the writers realised that they could do that. After all, the Enterprise D was big enough and had a large enough crew to do all the same sort of "day in the life" stories. Granted, you wouldn't have the same sort of recurring "outsiders" like Morn, Dukat, whatshername the explorer/trader and the assorted Bajorans, but there would still have been plenty of opportunity to explore the existing Star Trek cultures as well as exploring the new races of the week.

TNG did that at least twice, in episodes called "Data's Day" and "Lower Decks" IIRC

Stofsk wrote:Well he did say they were better looking, just not as hot. That's because Seven and T'Pol had cold personalities.

Seven of Nine had a cold front, but with an underlying sense of vulnerability and sadness.

Seeing most of the TNG and DS9 repeats on Virgin One from around a couple of years back I think that TNG, despite its flaws and a truly lacklustre opening season, was somewhat better than DS9 by having more individually decent episodes and more or less successfully updating Star Trek for the 1990s, even though DS9 had a stronger character ensemble. Most of DS9 was solidly decent, rather than outstanding, with occasional duds like "Move Along Home" opposite classics like "Duet", with an attention to story arcs that was lacking in VOY (though the Dominion War arc may have not been to everyone's taste). DS9's opening season was a bit wobbly and rather forgettable in places (hinting of Michael Pillar burning out), but S2 and S3 were better on repeat viewing. The Klingons became more like caricatures (that ran on into VOY's "Barge of the Dead"), yet the Cardassian Union carried on being interesting as antagonists: a very cruel and pretentious empire that was punching above its own weight to everybody's detriment (like perhaps the Empire of Japan between 1905 and 1945).

Did anybody notice how odd the early S1 make up was for René Auberjonois's Odo?

Big Orange wrote:Did anybody notice how odd the early S1 make up was for René Auberjonois's Odo?

No less odd than Worf's original makeup for TNG. I'm glad both looks changed and evolved.

So I just hit season 6.

I have to say, I haven't been disappointing one bit. I haven't skipped an episode.

Weyon is just really starting to come on and gives Dukat a run for his money in the bad guy department.

The only thing that I would have liked to see done differently is Worf. They brought him on in a good way, but they got a little Klingon-centric in the following episodes. It makes sense, it just seems a tad forced.

Otherwise, l have been thoroughly pleased and am looking forward to the meat of the Dominion War.

Havok wrote:Also, Dax and Kira are way hotter than Seven of Nine and Ta'Pol. Not better looking, but just all around hotter.

Agreed, at least where Kira is concerned. Never cared for Dax.


I think DS9 stands up well to time because they tried to hit many issues and current themes - like in Duet, they deal with a question that will stand up to the eternity of time (how to deal with war criminals). Meanwhile, TNG is inferior because it preaches about the high and mighty federation, which gets stale after the xth time you watched it.

P.S. Rakticcino mentions have gone through the roof in seasons 5 & 6.

Fucking IGGY POP!

Yeah. DS9 was good at making the occasional comedy episode.

Did you like the Jack Pack episode before Magnificent Ferengi?