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Aside from the alliance during the Dominion War, the Romulans and the Federation have always been less than friendly. Why is this? The Klingons and the Federation made peace, and they are quite different on the form of government and outlook on life. While with the Romulans, they are, a representative empire. with a Senate, and probably have more values than the Klingon Empire does that coalesce with the Federation. Is it just because the Klingon Empire got there first, and the two empires have never gotten along, or is it because the Romulans are only civilized on the surface, and would make terrible allies?

I think some of it might have been the extra friction between Vulcan and the Romulans but I can't pin down specifics.

Who says they've never been allies? Not only have we no evidence of hostilities between the two in the 30-odd years between The Enterprise Incident pre-2270 and the Tomed Incident in 2311, but during that period we have Ambassador Nanculus present for the Col West's briefing on Op Retrieve. I'd say that's pretty strong evidence that the UFP and the Romulans were close allies in the early 2290s

While there's no formal alliance beyond the Dominion War, why would there need to be? There does seem to be some sort of informal understanding.

How many times has the Neutral Zone been violated by one or the other party with nothing coming of it? The Federation violates the treaty prohibiting the development of cloaking technology and no war. Heck, they even decide to lend the Federation one of their cloaking devices for use in the Gamma quadrant, apparently on the honor system. The rediculusly low numbers of troops sent to invade and occupy Vulcan make a lot more sense as a symbolic gesture than they do as an actual act of agression, which given that trying to invade Vulcan did not set off a war, suggests that it might have been seen that way by the Federation too.

The Romulans will join up with the Federation in mutual defense against a common enemy, but it looks to me like both sides just want to be left alone, with occasional semi-provocatory military exercises meant to remind the other that they're still around and still worth taking seriously, but never enough to qualify as an actual provocation to war. That's why the Enterprise-D is always patrolling the Neutral Zone. Not a damn thing the big E could do to stop a serious Romulan invasion on its own, and scouting and patrolling could be done with any ship, but the Enterprise is a symbol of Federation power used to remind the Romulans that the Federation isn't militarily impotent. And more nicely to show the Romulans that the Federation still thinks the Romulans are a major power that's worth taking seriously on the Galactic stage.

The Romulans want more than just to be left alone, the attempted invasion of Vulcan and different attempts to get agents deep into the Federation are proof that there are expansionist tendencies within the Romulan Star Empire at least until Nemesis, perhaps up until the destruction of their homeworld.

I think the explanation that makes the most amount of sense is that the romulans don't want it. Probably because they're a nation of cynics who can't possibly believe the Federation just wants to be friends with everyone, there HAS to be an ulterior motive. Also, despite all the bluffs and posturing, when it comes right down to it the romulans are scared of the Federation's power. Not so much the klingons (possibly because Praxis well and truly fucked them even if they 'recovered' decades later, they may not have returned to the strength and power they had before), but the Federation is vast in size, its technology is incredible but more to the point the only hope a romulan Warbird commander has is to get the drop on a starship - and even that can backfire. See Toreth's assessment of the Federation and Starfleet in 'Face of the Enemy':

TORETH
Contrary to the propaganda your
superiors would have us believe,
Starfleet is neither weak nor
foolish. The chances of us
reaching Draken undetected are not
good.

TROI
We will be cloaked.

TORETH
The cloaking device does not make
us completely invulnerable. You
would know that if you had spent
any time in the field.
(beat)
The Federation has littered their
borders with subspace listening
posts and gravitic sensors. They
may even have a tachyon detection
grid in operation, in which case
they will know we're there.
(beat)
If we are discovered within
Federation territory, it could be
interpreted as an act of war.

The Federation-Klingon Alliance is also one of those things that probably worried a lot of romulans. Which explains why they tried breaking it up and also trying to invade vulcan too.

To add on that, the Romulan Empire is basically a police state, one which clearly does not tolerate any serious dissension among its citizens or even its senior Senators. The Romulan leaders (maybe a party leadership?) may fear that an alliance with the Federation, with the inevitable intercourse between their two peoples, would be a destabilizing, liberalizing force on Romulan politics. The Romulans may even still believe wars of aggression to be acceptable means of extending dominance over other star systems, as they believed in TOS and probably in the Earth-Romulan War as well. They're a bit more subtle about it in TNG, but they're still basically trying to start shit; the Romulans were real assholes in TNG.

The Romulans prefer a policy of confrontation over collaboration. In short, they're the Reagan administration, and the Feds are the Soviets.

It's a cultural enmity. The Romulans were the original enemy of the Federation, which was created in the wake of their defeat, and the Romulans have never forgiven that. The rivalry between the Klingons and the Federation was big for decades, but it was never personal in the same way (excluding Kirk, and even he had a lot of respect from Klingons). The Romulans make things much more personal.

Also the Romulans are much more repressive. The Klingons have a freer society, backwards and violent that it might be. In the Klingon Empire, you can say whatever you like. Someone might try to kill you for it, but you can kill him right back.

Eframepilot wrote:It's a cultural enmity. The Romulans were the original enemy of the Federation, which was created in the wake of their defeat, and the Romulans have never forgiven that. The rivalry between the Klingons and the Federation was big for decades, but it was never personal in the same way (excluding Kirk, and even he had a lot of respect from Klingons). The Romulans make things much more personal.

This sounds suspiciously like something out of a book.

I think it is far simpler, than what you are all surmising.

It comes down to trust.

The Klingons as a Empire have the ability to trust other races/governments as a whole. The races that make up Federation and Starfleet likewise, as a whole can trust other races/governments as a whole.

The Romulans, along with the Cardassians and Ferengi, don't.

If you look at their internal politics, you can see why. Lotsa back stabbing, scheming, plotting and distrust internally in how they run their Empires, leads to the same when dealing with others.

The Klingons, while aggressive and violent, tend to be very straight forward in their dealings with their internal politics. So that is how they deal with other governments, but it is not impossible, or even that hard to earn their trust and friendship.

The Klingons have their honour to worry about, and that means keeping their word. Other nations see this and realise that the Klingons really would keep their words, not because it's something good for you, but because they said they would.

I'm surprised no one has mention Romulan xenophobia and racism in blatant terms. Considering they were originally modeled after Communist China, it makes sense they would remain so even after an alliance of necessity.

Besides if I remember correctly in the far future they do end up joining the Federation.

DarkArk wrote:I'm surprised no one has mention Romulan xenophobia and racism in blatant terms. Considering they were originally modeled after Communist China, it makes sense they would remain so even after an alliance of necessity.

Besides if I remember correctly in the far future they do end up joining the Federation.

I don't necessarily think that the Romulans are xenophobic as they're more at home manipulating others into destroying themselves. They started the Earth-Romulan War easily enough, so they're an expansionist group, but we've also seen them lie dormant for long periods of time. They're isolationist, yes, but xenophobic? I wouldn't quite go that far. There's a certain air of elitism going on when they've been seen, from all of them. They believe they're superior to all, and aren't afraid to flaunt that fact. The Tal Shiar is another contributor, working actively to promote war and chaos in the surrounding empires and letting them destroy themselves rather than active military might.

No, the Romulans would rather just plant the seeds of chaos and wait for them to grow rather than actively promote military action. It's the style we've always seen.

DarkArk wrote:I'm surprised no one has mention Romulan xenophobia and racism in blatant terms. Considering they were originally modeled after Communist China, it makes sense they would remain so even after an alliance of necessity.

Besides if I remember correctly in the far future they do end up joining the Federation.

They're no more racist than the Klingons, who have blatant issues with members of their species marrying outside of it. Martok even told Word that they aren't like the Federation in that way.

Not to mention the MANY times they deride Starfleet as child's uniforms.

I would say the Romulans are more racist than the Klingons, although that isn't saying much at all. I don't know of any species the Klingons treat quite the same way as of the TNG/DS9 era the way the Romulans treat the Remans.

I think the inclusion of the Remans was a mistake. One that hurt Star Trek badly. The Romulans seemed to be pretty scary but having a slave race that suddenly and with little effort overthrew them in a matter of years due to a human was just... retarded. It's like saying "Any bad-guys can be defeated by a wily human character! Humans are awesome! That's why the Borg never conquered us because we're so cool!" It betrays the idea that the Romulans are a real threat. I also wasn't happy with the mural on the floor of the Imperial Senate... the one showing the border between the Romulans and Federation. Um, is that border so important to your people that you include it? Because wouldn't a map of your entire empire make more sense? Or maybe a raptor clutching the twin planets? Or is your reliance on humans so great that you can't function without a reminder that humans kicked you in the teeth two hundred years ago?

I know I'm making a big deal about this but damnit, someone has to. Since the Remans only show up in Nemesis and it damn near killed Star Trek for good, I'd be willing to ignore it in continuity if we can just pretend they never happened. Especially since we know there was a Praetor in place in 2387, which wasn't very likely after the entire upper government of the Romulans was butchered by the Remans and then that left a power vacuum after Shinzon's death. Or are we going to consider that a Romulan Admiral took the reigns of power and established a new Imperial Senate and didn't immediately staff it with loyal officers? I can believe that after the destruction of Romulus, but like I said. I pretend Nemesis never happened. Just like Star Trek V.

It's pretty apparent to anyone that Nemesis was a colossal failure on all fronts. It lead to Paramount DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE it happened in.

I don't think that people should confuse prideful boasting and posturing with racism. I mean, if you are gonna do that in Star Trek, then the Vulcans are the most racist people in the galaxy.

There is also some genuine hatred between some races that needs to be accounted for that isn't as much racism as it is directing anger for past perceived wrongs at a familiar face.

Baffalo wrote:I also wasn't happy with the mural on the floor of the Imperial Senate... the one showing the border between the Romulans and Federation. Um, is that border so important to your people that you include it? Because wouldn't a map of your entire empire make more sense? Or maybe a raptor clutching the twin planets? Or is your reliance on humans so great that you can't function without a reminder that humans kicked you in the teeth two hundred years ago?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pretty much the whole outline of the RSE bordered by the UFP/Romulan Neutral Zone?

Darth Tedious wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pretty much the whole outline of the RSE bordered by the UFP/Romulan Neutral Zone?

It looks too small to me. Still, even if it's just an artistic rendering, WHY would you have the border with only one empire visible?

That looks more like a tactical display than a static mural. Are you sure that isn't what it is?

youtube of opening scene, look at 2:21

I think it might actually be a static mural, or perhaps a static mural intended to appear as a tactical display?

Darth Tedious wrote:

Baffalo wrote:I also wasn't happy with the mural on the floor of the Imperial Senate... the one showing the border between the Romulans and Federation. Um, is that border so important to your people that you include it? Because wouldn't a map of your entire empire make more sense? Or maybe a raptor clutching the twin planets? Or is your reliance on humans so great that you can't function without a reminder that humans kicked you in the teeth two hundred years ago?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pretty much the whole outline of the RSE bordered by the UFP/Romulan Neutral Zone?

So the RSE is completely within the UFP?

No. The RSE is in the Beta Quadrant. The UFP is mostly in the Alpha Quadrant

I know, but Tedious' comment left me baffled. I assumed I was missing something.

Some maps do show the Federation swallowing the majority of the Romulan boarder. But as far as I know there is no cannon map as they all miss things out or distort territories in some way based on their limitation of being 2D.