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I had a realization while watching DS9...

I had it when I realized Morn had quarters on the station...meaning he isn't just some space trucker that passes: he has a permanent home on the station. This raises a LOT of questions. For one I agree with Mike's and the majority of the forums conclusion that the federation does not use currency in favor of a totally communistic system (with a black market).

Keeping that in mind, how did get he get permanent lodgings on Deep Space Nine? If the Federation works the way we think it does, then they could not officially charge rent nor is he a shopkeep or a member of either Starfleet or the Bajorans. I realize also that the Bajorans actually own the station, so in theory they could be the ones charging rent in some form, but that raises the question of whether or not Bajor has a monetary system, and even if they do, could they keep that system after being admitted to the Federation? Can member worlds maintain their economic systems?

Somehow I doubt they even have one much less that they could have one in the Federation.

I guess they just like Morn's conversationalism

well the rent could in form of non-monetary compensation (like working), so it could be like if you want permanent quaters you got to help x hours with cargo handling, janitorial duties or some other task that doesn't need trained SF personel.

after all just because there's no "money" (though that begs the question what exactly federation credits are then) doesn't mean there's no form of compensation.

I don't think Bajor ever actually achieved Federation membership during the TV show so I don't see why they wouldn't use money.

I know they were still working on it during the shows run, but they were attempting to join. Hence my member world economy question...would they have to change that?

I've never seen any indication that they could order him around or used his work, but then again Quark had done far worse but still maintained a similar arrangement

(far worse in forms of breaking the law I mean)

Without going into all the EU and fanfic stuff about Morn, he's a regular customer and Quarks, and thus he has to have some sort of income. As has been stated before, the station was only operated by Starfleet; it remained the property of the Bajoran Provisional Government. I'd be willing to bet they're collecting rent. I reckon Quark wouldn't own the location that is his business; but rather the licence to operate a business on that particular site, for which he pays an annual levy as well as monthly fees for tenancy. Problems with the bar's replicators, for example, were fixed by obligation of the station management, not private contractors hired directly by Quark.

I think DS9 introduced currency because the majority of US viewers couldn't understand a world without money.

The station was owned by Bajor, and Quark paid rent for his place as well.
Seems like the simplest solution is the correct one: Bajor used money.

If that changed when they became Federation members isn't something we see since by the time that happens we aren't told of any changes along those lines, though that could be interesting, an episode or two showing some of the changes as a world became a member of the Federation, including moving to the replicator/money-less economy.

Can you replicate jumja sticks

Tell me honestly

Maybe Morn turns tricks for lodging?

AMT wrote:The station was owned by Bajor, and Quark paid rent for his place as well.
Seems like the simplest solution is the correct one: Bajor used money.

I don't think he did. In Bar Association Sisko actually used the threat of charging him five years back-rent to get him fall in line and talk to Rom's Union.

edaw1982 wrote:Maybe Morn turns tricks for lodging?

We know he does shipping and that he was involved in the "Lissepian Mother's Day Heist".

Crazedwraith wrote:

AMT wrote:The station was owned by Bajor, and Quark paid rent for his place as well.
Seems like the simplest solution is the correct one: Bajor used money.

I don't think he did. In Bar Association Sisko actually used the threat of charging him five years back-rent to get him fall in line and talk to Rom's Union.

The very fact that this was a credible threat to begin with, however, clearly indicates that he was supposed to pay rent so the overall conclusion remains the same.

It could be that the Federation itself has no currency of its own, but its member worlds could very well have their own economies, currencies, etc (or even potential member worlds.) I don't recall the Federation being very invasive as far as how its members governed. They seemed to focus more on the 'interstellar' side of things if anything.

So I guess only Earth is the exception not the rule, and due to the fact humans have such a huge presence in the Federation that the organization doesn't officially have a "real" currency

I didn't remember that threat, so that certainly answers my question, maybe it took the Ferengi and a few other civilizations to reintroduce the idea of capitalistic economics, which would explain how early TNG seemed utterly baffled at the idea, while later even Picard sort of understood/dealt with it

I do REALLY want a jumja stick

Having money is a pretty digital thing. Either you do or you don't. TNG is pretty explicit about the 'don't', I think. Not 'we no longer particularly care about money', not 'money is no longer important', 'we no longer have money.'
No longer having cash is a whole different ball game. I always assumed Kirk's comment in TVH to mean they no longer have coins/paper money, nothing more. It's entirely possible to have a monetary economy as we know it with nothing but electronic money transfers.

I've mentioned before but in the TNG pilot, Crusher purchased some fabric and told the seller to put it in her account. The Federation has some form of economy, we just don't know exactly what it is.

There has been some inconsistencies in the way the Federation has been depicted. At least, on the surface. Picard was talking about how people in the 24th C had given up the desire to own 'things and possessions' yet fast forward to later seasons and whenever we look in his quarters he's something of a hoarder and even OCD about it. He also bought the risan statue to in 'Captain's Holiday'. Jake wanted Nog to front the cash at an auction to buy his dad a baseball card, and Nog asked him why didn't he have his own, and we get the spiel about how humans had given up currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy on personal development. However, that was explicitly about GPL, which isn't even a Federation currency anyway. In 'Starship Down' we had Zephram Cochrane masquerade as an alien from the gamma quadrant wanting to talk to Quark about 'bolian currency fluctuations'. There's the aforementioned bit from TNG's pilot. There's Scotty's boat too, but also Kirk saying 'well we don't (have money in the 23rd century)' when Gillian was chastising him for making her pay for dinner.

However, that's just on the surface. When Picard is talking about how 'we no longer are obsessed with the accumulation of things' and 'we've eliminated the need for possessions' that doesn't necessarily need to translate into 'lol we don't have money lol'. You can take that statement at face value (after all, it doesn't actually say they don't have money) but you can look at it and interpret it to mean that their society's values don't reflect our consumerist society. Indeed, when you've eliminated hunger and shelter because those things are provided for via Trek's wondrous technology, you've basically changed society into something most of us wouldn't recognise. Since most people work their asses off paying off a mortgage or the monthly rent, and buying groceries every week, and paying for utilities - all of these things will constitute a hefty chunk out of most people's weekly budget. Think about it, if you eliminate that as a worry, how much money would you have? A shit load I am guessing. Hell look at your car, it cost a chunk of money, it costs more every year for annual roadworthy inspections and insurance, every week you have to fill up the tank with petrol, and that's getting more and more expensive. In Star Trek, they've got fucking teleporters. You can beam to anywhere in the world for a holiday, then beam back home. A lot of the cost of living we experience, and the associated pressures to bring more and more money in, simply don't exist in the 24th C.

Star Trek’s economy.

The shows and movies have had definite statements on the Federation not having “money”, but have had individuals with credits, accounts, and had characters “buy” things.

Replicators, transporters and huge energy sources are cannon facts. So my thought is that human civilization has adapted to having vast physical resources by :

1) Eliminating capitalism in terms of personal/corporate ownership of means of production. This may have been done by “nationalization” of these assets by a socialistic-y, kind of super-national government. Leveling on a massive scale. Quite possibly revoking the legal concept of the “corporate person” and ownership of real estate, i.e. corporations can’t enter into contracts, no one “owns” property (real estate or intellectual), etc. More on property ownership later.

2) If energy and commodities are “too cheap to meter”, then the really valuable things are human capital (skills and knowledge) and time (man-hours) and real estate, “they’ve quit making it” …. Mark Twain. Intellectual “Property” as we know it might be “public domain”.

3) If energy, communications, transportation (teleporters) and commodity production (replicators) are provided by a collectively owned (government) systems that takes a very small fraction of GHE (gross human effort = summation of function(man-hours, skills) over all people), and everyone, by just existing, can have a BLA (basic living allotment) of all of these, then why work?


I think that Trek’s answer is the “credit”… but that the reason they say they don’t have “money” is that the term money is equated to our antiquated, un-fair, root of all evil system (from the Federation character’s viewpoint). I think these characters view the “credit” as being more in line with the meaning of the word as in “giving him credit for a job well done”.

So, if credits are an analytical measure of how much Federation society values your personal working time and effort, i.e. credits = function(man-hours, skills), then improving yourself by learning talents and skills makes you gain more “credit” for time spent. This explains the self improvement aspect of Federation society.

One point is that the character’s we see are the 1%’ers of their society. Notice, Kirk has penthouse apartment, Picard a family farm. This is highly desirable real estate. They obtain collectables (antiques). Why them? Because they have the “credits” to obtain and keep them. But they don’t look at it as money buying (Owning), they see it as their status (credit) in society allowing them to have these desirable, non-commodity items. Think of these things being “leased” (my word, not theirs) from society with “credits”. It would seem that if you keep the lease current, then it can be kept “in the family”, i.e. inherited. Think of good seats for college football. You get to keep them as long as you keep buying them.

The argument for patents is that no one will develop new things if they don’t benefit from doing so. Trek “credit” society could handle this in two way’s, mutually supporting. First credits for working on research, even if nothing much comes of it, f(mh, skill), AND big a credit payday (bonus points?)for really important results. This would explain all of episodes where “mad” scientists are throwing caution to the wind to make that big break through…..example, Seven of Nine’s parents. A scientist who make a big break through is the rock star of Trek society…..

Credits are just the bookkeeping of their social status. Yes, very, very complicated bookkeeping, but hey, they have Trek computers, so easy peasy. Everyone (we see) is trying to improve themselves…. For “self realization” and is rewarded by social status. It’s not the credit’s per say that they desire, it’s the status and what it brings in terms of things that are BEYOND the BLA.

And the “Proles” who are living on the “Purple Wage” of the BLA. i.e. they are the part of society that is perfectly happy to live on the BLA, watching vids, eating, drinking and procreating,. They are not seen (or talked about) on the show.

Or, I could be completely wrong... let's get a ouija board and ask the Great Bird of the Galaxy...

What about those that have freighters? Where do they fit in? Space cruise liners?

They most have some form of financial transactions for interaction with other species, hell the SF crew go to Quarks. He's not going to just give them food, drink & use of his private holosuites for nothing when everyone else has to pay for them.
Also when Quark had his Ferengi Business License revoked Sisko brought a load of tables and chairs in on the pretext that Quark had the room to store them, which Quark "allowed" on the provision that Sisko paid a storage fee, to which he agreed.

rematog wrote:Replicators, transporters and huge energy sources are cannon facts.

I guess 'energy' would be a useful commodity for trade? (since everything else can be replicated)

perhaps the currency-less existence is only for those who live on starships, where you wouldn't really need money until you stepped off. i seem to remember quark tries to sell souvenirs to fresh starfleet personnel, like Harry Kim (voyager pilot ep).

aussiemuscle308 wrote:(since everything else can be replicated)

actually there's tons of stuff that cannot be replicated for one reason or another.

Still, it would make sense that on Starfleet starships that the crew wouldn't need to buy most of their stuff, as it would be rationed out.