Starfleet and Ground Warfare

[Baffalo]

I was recently thinking of all the various times we've seen a real need for professional ground troops on Star Trek, from various boarding parties to fielding ground troops for occupation duties. It seems that between all the empires seen on Star Trek, no one has anything remotely resembling a modern army. The technology is advanced, certainly, but troops are regular crewmen lacking the training that would help in numerous situations.

My question is this: suppose a new empire was discovered just beyond the Federation's borders. They were approximately equal to the Federation, technologically, but have a functional army or marine force with mechanized infantry and landing equipment. How would the Federation, and the other powers (Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc.) react to this? And how would these forces react when starships in orbit are capable of orbital bombardment?

[Srelex]

It's a combination of the fact that space superiority is the real deciding factor in Trek and show budget. I think we've had mentions of ground vehicles in DS9 for one, and some form of UFP military aircraft.

Anyway, I don't think the UFP would particularly care about the ground forces of this new empire, besides maybe going 'eh, nice'. I'm reminded of that bit in TOS in the gangster planet episode, where Kirk solves the problem not with wankish Starfleet Marines or anything, but simply by calling in a precision phaser strike from the Enterprise.

[Darth Tedious]

I'm reminded of that bit in TOS in the gangster planet episode, where Kirk solves the problem not with wankish Starfleet Marines or anything, but simply by calling in a precision phaser strike from the Enterprise.

Are there examples of (quickly delivered) orbital bombings without a spotter on the ground?

In this example, Kirk's comm signal makes for easy targeting. Same when they PT'd God from orbit in TFF.

If a ground force was deployed rapidly enough (not difficult if the new faction has transporters), they might be able to make a lightning surgical strike before they get bitchslapped from orbit...

[Ted C]

Space superiority obviously provides a decisive advantage in a planetary conquest scenario, but we've repeatedly seen situations where a small ground force was needed to achieve an objective that couldn't be handled by a starship, and a dedicated force of well-trained and well-equipped commandos would be more effective than the Starfleet personnel pressed into service as ground troops that we usually see.

[Captain Seafort]

Space superiority obviously provides a decisive advantage in a planetary conquest scenario

Not necessarily. The Romulans reckoned that they could conquer Vulcan with 2000 troops in Unification, and done right they might have. Seize and fortify the main government buildings, preferably with hostages, and the technical ability to flatten the neighbourhood becomes somewhat pointless.

[Ted C]

Space superiority obviously provides a decisive advantage in a planetary conquest scenario

Not necessarily. The Romulans reckoned that they could conquer Vulcan with 2000 troops in Unification, and done right they might have. Seize and fortify the main government buildings, preferably with hostages, and the technical ability to flatten the neighbourhood becomes somewhat pointless.

PICARD: Can you possibly believe that the Federation will not immediately intervene?

SELA: Of course it will. And we're fully prepared for it. But we'll be there. Entrenched. And it will be very difficult to get us out once we are. A new Vulcan government will be formed that will embrace their Romulan cousins. Reunification will become a fact of life.

I suppose so. They are presumably counting on the Federation to be unwilling to just obliterate the Vulcan government buildings with an orbital strike, and those buildings presumably have shielding strong enough to repel starship phasers set for stun. The "conquest" of Vulcan appears to be more of a political coup attempt.

I don't see how they expect it to work. It's not like the bulk of the Vulcan population is going to accept any government imposed on them by the Romulan invaders, and 2000 troops simply aren't enough to make them. Do the Vulcans have that much of a history of acceding to terrorist demands?

[Purple]

For all we know the plan was to quickly capture the political leadership of Vulcan as you people suggested and than use them as a bargaining chip to work from there. There is no telling what kind of an effect a successful invasion like that would have had on the federation. But it sure would not be pretty.

This said we don't really have a clue what the plan was beyond what we saw. But there had to be something deeper in the background. After all, the Romulans did IIRC self destruct the transport rather than having the troops captured. Now I can buy fanaticism and all but last time I checked Romulans were not Imperial Japan. And its not like infantry could have any sort of seriously sensitive information they were looking to hide. For all we know there was something much deeper, some secret plan. Maybe they were intending to use some sort of toxin or bio weapon to threaten the Vulcans into submission. Maybe they had some superweapon in that transport. Or maybe they just knew something bout the Vulcans that they think they can exploit and that they want to keep hidden from the Federation. Who knows.

[Sea Skimmer]

Given that the Intrepid class starships could fly into an atmosphere, and so can fairly serious small ships like Runabouts, that solves your ground combat problem pretty well. Just cruise along blowing the fuck out of everything with a huge space ship if you can't do the job from orbit. Going supersonic would be a massively powerful weapon on its own. The only need for infantry would be for mopping up points that cannot be bombarded. Odds are this is what happened over the history of the Federation causing massed conventional ground forces to fade away, and a lack of serious warfare meant that by the time of TNG/DS9 even the mopping up capability had been allowed to atrophy into almost nothing. This wouldn't be that surprising if no conflicts took place that required it for a period of decades. Nobody in Star Fleet would want to fund it or join such an organization (bad chances of promotions if you serve a dead end and unused capability role) and it would fade away until suddenly needed again.

Also something else that can happen is a government comes to fear an army as a coup threat, and this seems like it would have been an actual issue in the Federation furthering the abandonment of a seemingly unneeded army.

[Scottish Ninja]

Space superiority obviously provides a decisive advantage in a planetary conquest scenario

Not necessarily. The Romulans reckoned that they could conquer Vulcan with 2000 troops in Unification, and done right they might have. Seize and fortify the main government buildings, preferably with hostages, and the technical ability to flatten the neighbourhood becomes somewhat pointless.

PICARD: Can you possibly believe that the Federation will not immediately intervene?

SELA: Of course it will. And we're fully prepared for it. But we'll be there. Entrenched. And it will be very difficult to get us out once we are. A new Vulcan government will be formed that will embrace their Romulan cousins. Reunification will become a fact of life.

I suppose so. They are presumably counting on the Federation to be unwilling to just obliterate the Vulcan government buildings with an orbital strike, and those buildings presumably have shielding strong enough to repel starship phasers set for stun. The "conquest" of Vulcan appears to be more of a political coup attempt.

I don't see how they expect it to work. It's not like the bulk of the Vulcan population is going to accept any government imposed on them by the Romulan invaders, and 2000 troops simply aren't enough to make them. Do the Vulcans have that much of a history of acceding to terrorist demands?

I've said it before, but I'll say it again - an invasion only makes sense as a quick coup d'etat with follow-on forces quickly arriving to reinforce an already secured position. If there's any significant resistance, the plot fails. I think it does depend on the message going out that Vulcan is joining the Romulans before anyone on Vulcan is really aware of what's going on. When the Vulcans were warned, the Romulans fired on their own ships - which might even have contained a "Vulcan" replacement government, now that I think about it - and could then spin the line that rogue elements conducted an unauthorized operation, which the RSE was quick to stop, while eliminating the possibility of the Federation capturing and interrogating anyone on those ships. In any case, a full-scale invasion is right out.

[Purple]

What would that gain them thou? The federation could just go in and liberate Vulcan and annul any treaty they signed under duress. It's not like a treaty is magically binding by act of Q.

[Scottish Ninja]

The Romulans had to be gambling on the Federation backing down when presented with a fait accompli - of a Vulcan appearing to legitimately choose joining the RSE, and its immediate reinforcement by major Romulan military units. At that point it's the Federation starting a war - and the longer the Romulans can stall, the stronger their position gets, both with continued reinforcement of Vulcan and the Federation losing the initiative by failing to act decisively. It depends on the Federation's commitment to peace and a peace process being strong enough to stay their hand while it looks like events may have been legitimate, and by the time there's proof of Romulan skulduggery the inertia of the situation has gotten it far enough out of control that they can't really justify starting a general war.

It's a big risk, but I can't really imagine anything else working.

[montypython]

The Romulans had to be gambling on the Federation backing down when presented with a fait accompli - of a Vulcan appearing to legitimately choose joining the RSE, and its immediate reinforcement by major Romulan military units. At that point it's the Federation starting a war - and the longer the Romulans can stall, the stronger their position gets, both with continued reinforcement of Vulcan and the Federation losing the initiative by failing to act decisively. It depends on the Federation's commitment to peace and a peace process being strong enough to stay their hand while it looks like events may have been legitimate, and by the time there's proof of Romulan skulduggery the inertia of the situation has gotten it far enough out of control that they can't really justify starting a general war.

It's a big risk, but I can't really imagine anything else working.

Well, seeing the Federation's actions at the onset of the Dominion War the Romulan train of thought seems rather flimsy...

[Uraniun235]

At the time of Unification, the Klingons had just fought a substantial civil war, leaving them in a weakened position. Simultaneously, when faced with the possibility that the Romulans might be interfering in that civil war, Starfleet could only scrape together ~20 starships near the Romulan-Klingon border to try and put a stop to it. Add to that a Federation still shaken by the Borg encounter, and from the Romulan perspective, there might never be a better time to make a move.

[Captain Seafort]

The federation could just go in and liberate Vulcan

Could they? Without flattening half the planet and killing tens or hundreds of thousands of Vulcans? In 1916 a force barely half the size of the Romulans', with only the most basic training and weapons, put up sufficiently solid resistance that it took the British Army a full week to isolate and force the surrender of a single strongpoint. Given the Feds' extreme reluctance to resort to orbital bombardment (which will only increase if the target is one of the founding worlds of the Federation), their lack of proper infantry equipment, and the far better training the Romulans will presumably have, they stand a much better chance of hanging onto the planet.

[montypython]

The federation could just go in and liberate Vulcan

Could they? Without flattening half the planet and killing tens or hundreds of thousands of Vulcans? In 1916 a force barely half the size of the Romulans', with only the most basic training and weapons, put up sufficiently solid resistance that it took the British Army a full week to isolate and force the surrender of a single strongpoint. Given the Feds' extreme reluctance to resort to orbital bombardment (which will only increase if the target is one of the founding worlds of the Federation), their lack of proper infantry equipment, and the far better training the Romulans will presumably have, they stand a much better chance of hanging onto the planet.

Not necessarily, the Feddies had fought ground battles with the Cardies and Talarians before TNG and still managed somewhat decently against Klingons before the Dominion War, so again there's no proof that the Feddies would do any worse against the Rommies.

[Captain Seafort]

Not necessarily, the Feddies had fought ground battles with the Cardies and Talarians before TNG and still managed somewhat decently against Klingons before the Dominion War, so again there's no proof that the Feddies would do any worse against the Rommies.

The first two wars ended in stalemate (probably due to Fed incompetence on the ground given their clear superiority in space, and managing decently against a bunch who would have problems with pretty much any organised military force in history isn't the greatest complement I can think of.

[montypython]

Not necessarily, the Feddies had fought ground battles with the Cardies and Talarians before TNG and still managed somewhat decently against Klingons before the Dominion War, so again there's no proof that the Feddies would do any worse against the Rommies.

The first two wars ended in stalemate (probably due to Fed incompetence on the ground given their clear superiority in space, and managing decently against a bunch who would have problems with pretty much any organised military force in history isn't the greatest complement I can think of.

Thing is that the Federation has fought ground battles regardless of how well the situations may have turned out, but if something is strategically significant they would find the wherewithal to fight, just look at the Dominion War again. In every ground battle we've seen seen in ST the Feddies haven't done any worse than their opponents keep in mind.

[Uraniun235]

If losing a city (or at least, a good chunk of it) on Vulcan is so untenable as to utterly forbid orbital bombardment, the Romulans don't even need a crack infantry regiment to hold off the Federation; all they need is to bring along a few nuclear bombs and hold the city hostage by threatening to detonate if they're attacked.

[amigocabal]

It's a combination of the fact that space superiority is the real deciding factor in Trek and show budget. I think we've had mentions of ground vehicles in DS9 for one, and some form of UFP military aircraft.

How does show budget factor into this?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It's a combination of the fact that space superiority is the real deciding factor in Trek and show budget. I think we've had mentions of ground vehicles in DS9 for one, and some form of UFP military aircraft.

How does show budget factor into this?

Because Infantry+Vehicles is always going to cost more than infantry alone- designing and building a vehicle, be it physical or virtual is going to increase costs by a lot, especially when you consider that it's also going increase the scope of battles since they naturally cover more ground.

[Ted C]

If losing a city (or at least, a good chunk of it) on Vulcan is so untenable as to utterly forbid orbital bombardment, the Romulans don't even need a crack infantry regiment to hold off the Federation; all they need is to bring along a few nuclear bombs and hold the city hostage by threatening to detonate if they're attacked.

For all we know, that was the plan.

[Baffalo]

If losing a city (or at least, a good chunk of it) on Vulcan is so untenable as to utterly forbid orbital bombardment, the Romulans don't even need a crack infantry regiment to hold off the Federation; all they need is to bring along a few nuclear bombs and hold the city hostage by threatening to detonate if they're attacked.

For all we know, that was the plan.

We never really hear about it, but how many elements of Vulcan society are entirely willing to embrace the Romulans? After all, given the attitude many Vulcans seem to present, they think humans are backwards, barbaric and uncivilized. They clearly feel that humans are inferior, and might want to join the Romulans simply because they're alike biologically and they seem to possess the Vulcan attitude and mannerisms of being reclusive and secretive, something Vulcans themselves do very often. How many things about Vulcans did Kirk have to find out the hard way just because so much about them is shrouded in mystery?

[Jub]

I shouldn't be hard for the federation to replicate a tank design from their own past, slap a layer of anti-phaser armor on it and go to town. We've seen that the 'heavy' weapons carried by most races are rather weak and the federation seems to have the upper hand in space; so no worries about spaceships picking off tanks. Space/weight can't be the issue given how much space is wasted on civilians and other luxuries and cost can't really be an issue given how many tanks we can churn out today without replicators.

So the question boils down to; does the federation honestly feel so safe they don't even have a mothballed reserve of proper ground weapons or are they just stupid enough to have forgotten the lessons of the past when it comes to ground combat?

[Connor MacLeod]

Here's a question that occured to me:

Is there really any reason in the series (evidence aside) that defending a planet on the ground (EG like an army) was ever part of Starfleet's original purposes, or even a major role?

[Jub]

I'm not sure if there was ever anything to show that they were ever given that role. We know that they obviously do fill this role, and a federation without a ground is a pretty silly idea given the number of times they've needed to have boots on the ground in a crisis.