StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Something about how they resolved the Moriarty arc bothered me. They used trickery as a final solution and don't give him what he really wants, freedom in the real world, the ability to explore his environment. Then, when I was watching one of the few good Voyager episodes the other day (yes, I do watch them occasionally), it finally came to me, a solution to Moriarty's problem: Just give him a mobile emitter. It worked for the Doctor. He can now go anywhere he wants and not be dependent on the confines of the sickbay. Couldn't they do the same for Moriarty? Oh, but you could argue that technology was new, and they didn't have it at the time of "Ship in a Bottle." Okay, that seems plausible, but then does that mean that they will now give Moriarty the emitter, as well as the Countess? No, the ending to SIAB makes it clear: They think they were fully justified in lying to and tricking Moriarty and his girlfriend. This would mean they'd have to reveal that they lied to him, and after that, he probably wouldn't ever trust them again, and with good reason. Sure, he took a hostage, and then held the whole ship hostage, but wouldn't you, if you wanted to be free? Not that it justifies it, but all he wanted was freedom. This is another dent in the so-called belief that the Federation is perfect. Such a true and understanding society would try to help him at all costs, not lie and trick him. It also has a certain racist flair to it, as seen in Voyager, where the Doctor is prejudiced against because he is a hologram. So, Picard and the TNG crew are not immune to it. They trick Moriarty and think it's okay because he's "just a hologram."

Thoughts?

What the fuck are you on about?

The Emitter was 29th Century tech. Even when they got it was lost the Delta Quadrant with Voyager. Even after Voyager got home they could duplicate him. So how is that a solution at all to the problem?

Yeah, Picard's pretty much justified in doing what he likes to stop the holographic evil genius from threatening his ship.

What? Where ever in Voyager did they say the mobile emitter was 29th century tech? Direct me to the exact episode, and I'll concede the point.

And I don't see Moriarty as an evil genius, just a being wanting freedom against suppressors. I agree with Chuck.

That'd be Future's End Pt II

Ok I'll check. But still, they have the mobile emitter technology now, so they can use it on Moriarty, if they wanted to. But still, that would be revealing their lies and also using future technology, something they hate.

Lord Falcon wrote:Ok I'll check. But still, they have the mobile emitter technology now, so they can use it on Moriarty, if they wanted to. But still, that would be revealing their lies and also using future technology, something they hate.

That assumes that they can recreate it.

'Now' being after the return of VOY to the Alpha Quadrant, which was several years after the destruction of the E-D, which likely as not included the destruction of Moriarty's pocket universe (and by extension, him and the Countess, unless it was mentioned they were moved off the ship at some time?)
And while the genius is indeed dubitable, the evil is not. After having it repeatedly explained to him, in great detail, why it's physically impossible for him to leave the holodeck, he threatens to destroy the ship and kill everyone on board unless they find a way to do something they just told him can't be done.
Though on hindsight 'deranged' might be more applicable than 'evil'.

What they could have done was to suspend his program, download it, and set him up in a holo-lab, similar to what the creator of the EMH had, and allow him to research the matter on his own.

The mobile emitter is indeed 29th century tech, though.

Another possibility, which was barely touched upon, would be to set him up with a more humanoid version of the telepresence drone that Geordi used in that one episode.

Why, exactly, would they want him out in the real universe? This guy is the closest thing the 19th century has to a supervillain.
Besides, he got everything he asked for in Ship in a Bottle. A whole universe to explore. Sure, it's not real-but neither is he. They could have just deleted him.

Batman wrote:Why, exactly, would they want him out in the real universe? This guy is the closest thing the 19th century has to a supervillain.
Besides, he got everything he asked for in Ship in a Bottle. A whole universe to explore. Sure, it's not real-but neither is he. They could have just deleted him.

I understand what you're saying, but given the kind of abilities Moriarty displayed, not to mention the fact that they created a sentient AI on a level that, IMO, exceeds Data, on accident, means that it may be worth indulging him to try and figure out how to harness that ability.

The extent the Enterprise crew has gone to to protect/save species that were hostile to them makes the notion of it being "ok" to trap Moriarty in a gilded cage all the more heinous. Just another example of Starfleet's contradictory moral structure.

I'm just saying, he and his girlfriend have rights like everyone else. And even if Moriarty himself was a true villain, rather than just complex, does that mean his girlfriend should have to suffer the same fate? The episode really makes it seem as if tricking and lying to someone is the moral thing to do. Then again, this is the Federation, where allowing entire worlds to die is also considered the moral thing to do...

Lord Falcon wrote:I'm just saying, he and his girlfriend have rights like everyone else. And even if Moriarty himself was a true villain, rather than just complex, does that mean his girlfriend should have to suffer the same fate? The episode really makes it seem as if tricking and lying to someone is the moral thing to do. Then again, this is the Federation, where allowing entire worlds to die is also considered the moral thing to do...

No. Moriaty is a hologram. He has no rights. Not legally. Episodes like Measure Of A Man and Author, Author show that arificial beings have no guarenteed rights in the federation even being sapient.

Now you might say that morally Picard shouldn't have done it. That's different though. But again, Picard also has a moral and legal responsbillity to protect the crew and civilian complement of the Enterprise D. So yes, tricking and lying to a couple of people to stop them threatening over a thousand people? Sounds moral enough to me.

I mean hell, is Kirk a bad person for lying to and tricking Balus in the Corbomite Manoever so he wouldn't destroy the Enterprise?

Dont see the issue, Moriarty was created to be a bad guy and ended up doing bad things. This entity attempted to blackmail the E-D with destruction which hardly makes the Federation bad guys if they decided to shelf him with a 'do not open' label. Wether or not they even made it off the E-D is a complete unknown so bringing up the Mobile Emitter is beyond stupid. If anything, Voyager's experience with holograms would convince the Federation to be extremely careful with loosing that kind of technology.

Picard and Co. were trying to protect the E-D from destruction at the whims of an entity that would not listen to reason who put the ship at risk through tricking and lying to them in the first place. I dont give a shit if Moriarty thinks he has the right of self determination when he is threatening to kill over a thousand people even when they keep telling him they are trying to help him. The Federation can be bashed for a lot of things but this is the least of them if at all.

Picard was fully justified in using whatever means to eliminate and contain Moriarty who effectively became a terrorist.
Afterwards ?
We have no idea what happened beyond the fact Moriarty was part of the Starfleet Academy training for Harry Kim and it is possible the invention of the Mobile Emitter WAS a result of the Federation attempting to give Moriarty what he wanted.

I fail to see how it is immoral for Picard to use the same ruse that Moriarty used against him as a means of saving a thousand lives. Picard told him that Starfleet was working on the problem but they had no idea how to help him, what more is Starfleet supposed to do ?
If anything putting him in the 'gilded cage' is a lot more moral because it allows them to live out a life in blissful ignorance rather than Moriarty bitching he was stuck in stored memory with nothing to do for four years until he was reactivated. If Starfleet was genuine in not caring about Holograms they could have simply erased him after the first episode rather than keep him stored for four years.

I meant I personally think he has rights. Chuck covered this in his review of Measure of a Man, that if a being thinks and wants freedom, then why shouldn't it?

Sure, Moriarty kidnapped Pulaski, but he never harmed her. He shook the Enterprise, but that was not intended to destroy it. The second time, it's debatable whether he wanted to destroy it. To me, it seemed more like a bluff, because if the ship was destroyed, he would be too. And even if he did intend to, and I'm not saying this excuses it, he was desperate. Picard did withhold information from him in the first story, where he refused to let him off the holodeck and instead put him into protected memory. Though again, that's debatable because of what happened later, though for all we know, maybe Moriarty could survive off the holodeck. I'm just saying, Picard, who fought for Data's rights, just seems to think Moriarty has none at all. Of course, this gels with his views before, where he tells Data to undergo the procedure and also thinks an android might not be fit as captain in Redemption, Part II. I can understand what they did at the time, since it was that or destruction. However, once they have the mobile emitter and can free him, it's morally wrong to not give him that chance.

Lord Falcon wrote:I meant I personally think he has rights. Chuck covered this in his review of Measure of a Man, that if a being thinks and wants freedom, then why shouldn't it?

By that reasoning we shouldn't imprison anybody. Curious, we still do, because those people endanger other people's lives.

Sure, Moriarty kidnapped Pulaski, but he never harmed her.

So? He threatened to. That together with the fact that he kidnapped her to begin with makes him a criminal right there even if he hadn't been created one from the outset.

He shook the Enterprise, but that was not intended to destroy it. The second time, it's debatable whether he wanted to destroy it.

He flat out said he was going to do it. It doesn't get any more obvious then that.

To me, it seemed more like a bluff, because if the ship was destroyed, he would be too.

IIRC he explicitly said he'd rather cease to exist than be confined to the holodeck forever, and whether or not it was a bluff is irrelevant-Holomoriarty said he would do it, thus Picard has to work on the assumption that he would do it.

And even if he did intend to, and I'm not saying this excuses it, he was desperate. Picard did withhold information from him in the first story, where he refused to let him off the holodeck

There was no fucking way to get Moriarty off the holodeck. How many times do you need it explained that the VOY EMH roaming about as he pleased was a one-off oddity due to technology not available in the TNG era?

and instead put him into protected memory. Though again, that's debatable because of what happened later, though for all we know, maybe Moriarty could survive off the holodeck.

As evidenced by-what, exactly?

I'm just saying, Picard, who fought for Data's rights, just seems to think Moriarty has none at all.

When was the last time Data threatened to destroy the ship and everyone on board unless the crew did something they have, in great detail, explained to him they're physically incapable of doing?

Of course, this gels with his views before, where he tells Data to undergo the procedure and also thinks an android might not be fit as captain in Redemption, Part II. I can understand what they did at the time, since it was that or destruction. However, once they have the mobile emitter and can free him, it's morally wrong to not give him that chance.

'Once they have the mobile emitter' being the end of VOY at which point the E-D is so much space dust, and likely so is Holomoriarty. But feel free to point out the POST-end of VOY episodes that show them denying Holomoriarty his freedom. Oh wait- there aren't any.

Batman wrote:'Once they have the mobile emitter' being the end of VOY at which point the E-D is so much space dust, and likely so is Holomoriarty.

Not necessarily - remember, Moriarty's universe in a bottle was running on an independent device, not in the ship's computer, so whether or not he was destroyed when the E-D was depends on a) whether said device was still aboard rather than in Starfleet's equivalent of the Raiders warehouse and b) if so, how well secured said device is and how robust it is. If it was off the ship, or survived the crash, then he's probably still ticking away merrily somewhere.

That's why I said 'likely' in the first place instead of blithely assuming the device was destroyed. Sure, they might have moved him off the E-D. Or they might not, we just don't know. Since the saucer section survived the crash reasonably intact, however, it is indeed entirely possible that Holomoriarty is still busy exploring his pocket universe even if he was still on board the big E at the time.

First off, let me just say I am trying not to offend, so I come off as headstrong, I apologize.

By that reasoning we shouldn't imprison anybody. Curious, we still do, because those people endanger other people's lives.

Moriarty was an entirely new phenomenon, a sentient hologram. I consider this analogous to a child born to someone like Hitler or John Wayne Gacy, or as a child being raised in a brutal household where they are taught these beliefs that shape them. Moriarty's programming was based on a fictional character who was a criminal, sure, but does that mean he has to be a criminal? And if he is, does that mean there's no hope for him? Do we just write him off or try to help him? If you choose not to help him, then that's a person's right, but if you choose not to save him, that gives the person who chooses it no right to go around boasting about how perfect their society is.

So? He threatened to. That together with the fact that he kidnapped her to begin with makes him a criminal right there even if he hadn't been created one from the outset.

As I said, he has a criminal background, sure, because of his programming, but is it possible to become more than the sum of your experiences, or in this case, programming? Actions matter. And yes, he took her against her will, but he did not harm her. He threatened to yes, but again, actions, not words. His intent showed he really didn't want to do that. I see him as someone doing unpleasant things, which is all he's known, to try and negotiate, to find his way in the world, to learn. At the end of "Elementary, Dear Data," I thought that he had potential, the ability to become more than he was, but then as I said, Picard put him into protected memory.

He flat out said he was going to do it. It doesn't get any more obvious then that.

Didn't he also say it was just to get Picard's attention? The way he said it seemed more to me like, "I could destroy it," leaving it up in the air. But they managed to resolve the situation, with him deciding he would not do that in the end.

IIRC he explicitly said he'd rather cease to exist than be confined to the holodeck forever, and whether or not it was a bluff is irrelevant-Holomoriarty said he would do it, thus Picard has to work on the assumption that he would do it.

Yes, I agree with that. Picard needs to act as if he would. But in that case, then he should see his solution as a necessary evil, justified maybe, but he seems happy that Moriarty will live a life that's a lie. I would be upset, but convincing myself I had no other choice. Picard seems to feel absolutely nothing at all, and my conclusion is that since Moriarty is a hologram, he thinks it's a fitting thing for him. This feels like saying blacks should only live in Africa and Jews should only live in Israel. Along the same line.

There was no fucking way to get Moriarty off the holodeck. How many times do you need it explained that the VOY EMH roaming about as he pleased was a one-off oddity due to technology not available in the TNG era?

Whoa, cool it, no offense, dude. I get it. That was a one-time thing. But the point I am trying to make is that their solution, of simply lying to him further, was not better. It was a necessary evil, but it wasn't a win-win situation, as Picard made it feel like. And this further shows the cracks in the so-called utopia that is the Federation. That is what I want to do, not insist they do something they didn't know how to do yet.

As evidenced by-what, exactly?

Picard said at the end of "Elementary, Dear Data" that Moriarty could possible exist off the holodeck since Geordi was able to take that piece of paper out, and as we saw in another episode, two gangsters were able to exist temporarily outside the holodeck. He never told Moriarty this. And yeah, I know, he was worried since he had tried to destroy the ship, and Picard couldn't take it as a bluff. That I understand. Then he leaves him in protected memory for four years and never trying to help him. And yeah, I know he sent the reports to Starfleet, but to me that seems more along the lines of filing a report, wanting someone else to do the actual work. This to me suggests Picard doesn't see him as a genuine lifeform, something he felt with Data when he said that he should turn himself over to Starfleet to experiment on. It's one thing to say Moriarty is extreme, and that he is dangerous, which I can accept, but I want to convey that, whatever his faults, he does have legitimate grievances against Picard and the Federation.

When was the last time Data threatened to destroy the ship and everyone on board unless the crew did something they have, in great detail, explained to him they're physically incapable of doing?

I will concede Moriarty could have done a better job, taken the ship away from the two gas giants and just held it hostage until they came up with something. And Data did threaten the ship once when he got possessed by Soong and hijacked it to take to his planet ("Brothers"). And you ignored my point. It seems as if Picard thinks Moriarty has no rights at all, either because he used extreme methods and therefore did not conform to the so-called perfect Federation ideal or because he is a hologram and should live his life in a holographic world, where he belongs.

'Once they have the mobile emitter' being the end of VOY at which point the E-D is so much space dust, and likely so is Holomoriarty. But feel free to point out the POST-end of VOY episodes that show them denying Holomoriarty his freedom. Oh wait- there aren't any.

Yeah, true. I wonder if Moriarty did survive. If he did, maybe that hologenerator would remain there for all time or until its power went out. A scary thought. I'm just saying, and this is my overall original point, the Federation is not as perfect as it thinks it is. It does not care for the life of Moriarty, and will likely never go back to Veridian III to recover him and give him a real life. And then they might say that that is better so he won't live in the horrible post-Dominion War world, but that again shows them making the decision for him.

That was my overall point of this whole thread. To point out that the Federation is flawed. It wasn't my intention to piss any of you off. I apologize for doing so. If you can present even more reasoned debate, I am fully prepared to concede all points, to try to find the middle ground.

Lord Falcon wrote:Yeah, true. I wonder if Moriarty did survive. If he did, maybe that hologenerator would remain there for all time or until its power went out. A scary thought. I'm just saying, and this is my overall original point, the Federation is not as perfect as it thinks it is. It does not care for the life of Moriarty, and will likely never go back to Veridian III to recover him and give him a real life. And then they might say that that is better so he won't live in the horrible post-Dominion War world, but that again shows them making the decision for him.

That was my overall point of this whole thread. To point out that the Federation is flawed. It wasn't my intention to piss any of you off. I apologize for doing so. If you can present even more reasoned debate, I am fully prepared to concede all points, to try to find the middle ground.

Umm, no one here says the Federation is a perfect Utopia, I mean read the main site. As to the Federation view on non-organic life, it's pretty clearly shown that they feel any artificial construct is not a true sentient being deserving of the rights they would normally accord such a being. Data had to fight for his rights. The Doctor had to fight for his rights. Heck, Vic is only left alone because no one really knows he's sentient and think he's just a pleasure hologram anyway.

Also, I'd like to point out that your "solution" means depriving the Doctor of the mobile emitter, that seems rather wrong.

As to Starfleet working on the Moriarty problem, why do you think the mobile emitter was created in the first place? We have already seen with the introduction of the Prometheus that Starfleet was beginning to test out introducing holo-emitters through out their ships to grant their holographic programs increased freedom. Although this did lead to the older EMH MK I's having to work as dilithium miners as apparently Starfleet made holo-emitter tech cheap enough that it was cost effective to do so. However, it also shows they didn't want to just up and delete the EMH programs, and preferred to repurpose them (although said repurposing was a terrible thing).

Crazedwraith wrote:

Lord Falcon wrote:I'm just saying, he and his girlfriend have rights like everyone else. And even if Moriarty himself was a true villain, rather than just complex, does that mean his girlfriend should have to suffer the same fate? The episode really makes it seem as if tricking and lying to someone is the moral thing to do. Then again, this is the Federation, where allowing entire worlds to die is also considered the moral thing to do...

No. Moriaty is a hologram. He has no rights. Not legally. Episodes like Measure Of A Man and Author, Author show that arificial beings have no guarenteed rights in the federation even being sapient.

Now you might say that morally Picard shouldn't have done it. That's different though. But again, Picard also has a moral and legal responsbillity to protect the crew and civilian complement of the Enterprise D. So yes, tricking and lying to a couple of people to stop them threatening over a thousand people? Sounds moral enough to me.

Indeed- Spock said it best: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Something else which just occurred to me- anyone remember "Nothing Human", where a hologram of Crell Moset was created? When it emerged that the guy he was based on was a mad scientist who was responsible for the deaths of thousands, they eventually deleted him and all the knowledge he had gained from the computer.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:

Lord Falcon wrote:I'm just saying, he and his girlfriend have rights like everyone else. And even if Moriarty himself was a true villain, rather than just complex, does that mean his girlfriend should have to suffer the same fate? The episode really makes it seem as if tricking and lying to someone is the moral thing to do. Then again, this is the Federation, where allowing entire worlds to die is also considered the moral thing to do...

No. Moriaty is a hologram. He has no rights. Not legally. Episodes like Measure Of A Man and Author, Author show that arificial beings have no guarenteed rights in the federation even being sapient.

Now you might say that morally Picard shouldn't have done it. That's different though. But again, Picard also has a moral and legal responsbillity to protect the crew and civilian complement of the Enterprise D. So yes, tricking and lying to a couple of people to stop them threatening over a thousand people? Sounds moral enough to me.

Indeed- Spock said it best: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Something else which just occurred to me- anyone remember "Nothing Human", where a hologram of Crell Moset was created? When it emerged that the guy he was based on was a mad scientist who was responsible for the deaths of thousands, they eventually deleted him and all the knowledge he had gained from the computer.

I do remember that ep - it turned out he found the means to, what was it, remove a parasite from one of the crew members, and that the "methods" the real doctor used involved basically experimenting on prisoners or something?

It's an interesting comparison since both that guy and Moriarty were based on "evil" people, though they themselves really weren't evil.

I see what you all mean, and I don't dispute it. Like I said, Picard seemed to think it was the perfect solution. I think of it as a necessary evil. And I didn't mean take the Doctor's emitter away. I meant researching and creating new ones, although given the Federation's stance on future technology, that most likely would never happen, even if Moriarty survived. For some reason, I always thought Picard gave the holographic generator to Starfleet to look after...

Perfect solution and necessary evil are not mutually exclusive you know. At the time, the only way Picard could give Holomoriarty what he wanted was to drop him in that virtual pocket universe.
After the return of VOY? Who knows. They may or may not be able to build more mobile emitters, the Holomoriarty GameCube may or may not have been moved off the E-D before Riker got her blown to smithereens, it may or may not have survived with the saucer section, we just don't know.

I don't know if I agree, but now I see where you're coming from. And all this happened off-screen, so it seems kind of pointless to argue about it now. As for perfect solution, was bombing innocent people in World War II the perfect solution? Yes. Does that mean we have to like it? Well, personally, this is why I think war needs to be avoided at all costs; because I don't believe there is such a thing as a just war. Just my opinion, though.

Lets assume that Moriarty's cube was moved off the Enterprise into storage somewhere. What are the chances that Section 31 would cause Moriarty to be deleted ?

Especially after they start getting reports back from Voyager about a mobile emitter being possible, holograms rebelling against their alien masters and the Federation starts expanding holo-emmiter coverage aboard ships for medical holograms.