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just finished up ds9. i find my self thinking about the size of the Cardassian Union. it seem small compared to the other powers , got me wondering just how big of a population do you think an empire would need to be as strong as the cardassians if they have fed tech level ? star fleet lost less than 2 million from fleet battles ( don't know about ground wars).

could say a empire with about 50 system and 10 billion people do it ? (in your opinion)

forgive the bad grammar i just moved to Canada not too long ago.

The size of the Cardassian Empire was never established in canon.

We can assume that since it was one of the major powers that has an impact on the geopolitical balance of power in the AQ, that it is comparable to the Romulans and Klingons, but probably smaller. But larger than powers like the Tholians, Gorn, Tzenkethi, who don't seem to have much influence over the overall balance of power in the AQ.

Lord MJ wrote:We can assume that since it was one of the major powers that has an impact on the geopolitical balance of power in the AQ, that it is comparable to the Romulans and Klingons, but probably smaller.

They're nothing like the Romulans and Klingons - a third of the Klingon fleet was enough to steamroll the Cardies in WotW. They're strong enough to force a stalemate with the Federation (possibly due to superior ground combat capabilities), and to be a persistent thorn in their side, but I never got the impression that they'd be anything but an also-ran if it weren't for their position near the wormhole.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Lord MJ wrote:We can assume that since it was one of the major powers that has an impact on the geopolitical balance of power in the AQ, that it is comparable to the Romulans and Klingons, but probably smaller.

They're nothing like the Romulans and Klingons - a third of the Klingon fleet was enough to steamroll the Cardies in WotW. They're strong enough to force a stalemate with the Federation (possibly due to superior ground combat capabilities), and to be a persistent thorn in their side, but I never got the impression that they'd be anything but an also-ran if it weren't for their position near the wormhole.

The wormhole wasn't a factor in AQ Geopolitics until DS9 started, and arguably not until after the Dominion was discovered.

A third of a military defeating an enemy power is hardly indicative of relative power in the interstellar system. If it was a tenth of the Klingon military that would be a much better argument. In any case, we have no idea how much of the Cardassian fleet was destroyed in the Klingon War. It was enough the the Cardassians had convoy protection shortages, but not enough that a full scale counter attack against the Klingons was beyond the realm of possibility (Return to Grace) and that the Cardassians were able to field a significant fleet in the Dominion War.

More than likely, the Klingons were able to break through the Cardassian fleet in a place that gave them a straight shot to Cardassia Prime before the Cardassians could regroup to protect the planet. After Gowron called off the Klingon advance, the Cardassians undoubtedly redeployed to put Cardassia Prime out of reach. The Klingons strategy thus changing to consolidating choice gains, cherry picking individual systems to annex rather than a full all out offensive, and arming the Maquis to destabilize Cardassia further.

As far as the Federation war, it is totally unknown how large the space combat was between the powers. (My theory is that during the war the Cardassians actually had the advantage in space combat capability, the aging Excelsiors and Ambassadors being at a disadvantage, but numerous enough that they, along with the stronger Federation economy and resource base, were able to hold the Cardassians from making significant gains.)

I agree. Remember how ONE Cardie ship gave the E-D a run for its money and the E-D was a Galaxy Class.

Enigma wrote:I agree. Remember how ONE Cardie ship gave the E-D a run for its money and the E-D was a Galaxy Class.

Err... What? When? I remember E-D effortlessly swatting a Galor at the start of Wounded. Or maybe Ensign Ro.

Crazedwraith wrote:Err... What? When? I remember E-D effortlessly swatting a Galor at the start of Wounded. Or maybe Ensign Ro.

The Wounded - she'd also taken a few hits unshielded, to almost no effect. The Phoenix (Nebula-class) also effortlessly swatted a Cardassian warship (presumably a Galor) even after the Cardies were given her prefix codes.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:Err... What? When? I remember E-D effortlessly swatting a Galor at the start of Wounded. Or maybe Ensign Ro.

The Wounded - she'd also taken a few hits unshielded, to almost no effect. The Phoenix (Nebula-class) also effortlessly swatted a Cardassian warship (presumably a Galor) even after the Cardies were given her prefix codes.

What I remembered was the E-D being shot twice by a Galor. Each time Picard was told each time that the shields were taken down by a third. AFAIK, it was from Parallels.

Enigma wrote:What I remembered was the E-D being shot twice by a Galor. Each time Picard was told each time that the shields were taken down by a third. AFAIK, it was from Parallels.

That was in an alternate reality, where Worf didn't know how to work the tactical console.

This is a tricky one, since miltary power is based on a number of factors, including population, material resources, development, and overall technology. The Federation is usually held up as having the most advanced technology, though they all too often run into other races with an advantage in one area or another, and even if their overall tech is the most advanced, it doesn't necessarily translate into military victory (they still got beaten by the Klingons in the alternate reality with Tasha Yar).

A polity's overall technology depends on its ability to engage in scientific research and development. This in turn requires a supply of trained scientists, the ability to store and transit information, an adequate supply of material resources, and an atmosphere of free inquiry. In theory, a single planet with a large enough population and the right mindset could develop a substantal military capability i terms of personnel numbers and technology, the potential bottleneck being material resources. Material resources represent a problem primarily for production, but they can also be an issue in research and development. Even today some techologies are dependent to a varying extent on specific substantances, meaning that if a vital substance just happens not to exist on a given planet, or in a given star system, then the civilization developing there could be held back.

On that basis, a fifty-planet (or fifty-system) power with a population of ten billion could expect to do well. A popuation like that could support a sustantial scientific community, while such an inter-planetary reach would allow for vast and varied resources. Assuming there isn't a practical limit on technological sophistication, numbers will nevertheless count. Another polity with a larger population (and a larger scientific community) and greater territory (more and more varied resources) will have the advantage. Of course there will be variables, such as the resources actually available in a given territory (the Cardassian territories are implied in some cases to be resource-poor) and the ability and willingness of a populatio to support a suffiently large and suitably resourced scientific community (the Klingons may have problems in this regard).

It's Cardassia being resource poor, not the Cardassian Empire. Being resource poor is the reason the Cardassians have colonies in the first place. Presumably much of the Cardassians industrial infrastructure is located in the Colonies rather than on Cardassia itself. (The economics of hauling resources back to the homeworld for manufacture ala colonial Europe being inefficient.)

The disadvantage being is if you cut off Cardassia's access to it's colonies, you effectively starve Cardassia Prime.

An advantage being that in theory the Cardassian Empire could continue fighting even if their homeworld has been taken. Which explains why Gowron wanted the Cardassian council members. If they were allowed to live they could theoretically continue the war even after the Klingons had taken Cardassia Prime. And given that the Klingon forces were fighting far from their resource base, and the shortest route to Cardassian territory controlled by a now hostile Federation, a long drawn out war would not be to the Klingon's advantage.

Lord MJ wrote:It's Cardassia being resource poor, not the Cardassian Empire. Being resource poor is the reason the Cardassians have colonies in the first place. Presumably much of the Cardassians industrial infrastructure is located in the Colonies rather than on Cardassia itself. (The economics of hauling resources back to the homeworld for manufacture ala colonial Europe being inefficient.)

The disadvantage being is if you cut off Cardassia's access to it's colonies, you effectively starve Cardassia Prime.

Yeah, which is why the Klingon invasion crippled the Cardassian economy for a year and half. The Maquis running lose in the DMZ further cut off safe access to those worlds and resources.

Also whether the Cardassians, after the Dominion War, could realistically rebuild themselves into a viable interstellar power, would depend not on the state of their homeworld that was trashed, but on how much of their interstellar territories they were allowed to keep. If the allies annexed some territories, but the core worlds remained then the Cardassians could rebuild. If the Cardassian Empire was gutted, the Cardassians would not have the resources to rebuild.

That is assuming my theory about the majority of Cardassian industrial infrastructure being located in the colonies is accurate.

Lord MJ wrote:Also whether the Cardassians, after the Dominion War, could realistically rebuild themselves into a viable interstellar power, would depend not on the state of their homeworld that was trashed, but on how much of their interstellar territories they were allowed to keep. If the allies annexed some territories, but the core worlds remained then the Cardassians could rebuild. If the Cardassian Empire was gutted, the Cardassians would not have the resources to rebuild.

That is assuming my theory about the majority of Cardassian industrial infrastructure being located in the colonies is accurate.

Your point makes a lot of sense. What I couldn't quite figure out about Cardassia was how secure its resources situation is before the Klingon invasion. There's a vague sense about Cardassia that it got caught in a vicious circle, having to keep on expanding to pay for the expense of their previous expansions, and that this had 'dehumanized' (for want of a better word) their society. It's difficult to call, as the systems they expanded into could have been anywhere on a scale between treasure-troves and pretty much worthless. The really problematic systems would be those with intelligent life, especially with developed cultures and identities like Bajor, since they may require expensive and strategically inconvenient occupations.

The only indications we have of Cardassia's broader strategic situation before WotW are that they had a war with the Federation, resulting in territorial exchanges, and that the Breen were within grabbing distance. The novels have Cardassia getting into regular fights with the Tzenkethi and the Talarians. The Maquis seemed convinced (or at least Eddington was) that they could drive the Cardassians out of the Demilitarized Zone, but there's little evidence that the Cardassians had any intention of giving up.

Lord MJ wrote:Also whether the Cardassians, after the Dominion War, could realistically rebuild themselves into a viable interstellar power, would depend not on the state of their homeworld that was trashed, but on how much of their interstellar territories they were allowed to keep. If the allies annexed some territories, but the core worlds remained then the Cardassians could rebuild. If the Cardassian Empire was gutted, the Cardassians would not have the resources to rebuild.

This is why I last two seasons of VOY infuriated me when they re-established contact with Earth. I was dying to see the ex-Maquis' reactions to the news that Cardassia had been decimated. It would have been a chance to at least touch on the post-war rebuilding, both for the Union and the rest of the Quadrant.

To me, it was mistake not to deal with these reactions and I've always wondered if nobody on the staff cared or if Berman deliberately shot it down to continue spiting DS9.

Anyway, the DS9 Relaunch delves into the post-War status of Cardassia. Garak and other survivors are trying to coordinate the rebuilding of the homeworld, with the Feds providing humanitarian aid and relief. The rest of the Union remains occupied with the Alliance, but I can't remember if there was any talk about permanently disarming the Union.