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I was pondering DS9 the other day and it occurred to me: during the early months of the war, the Dominion was concerned about stores of white running out. This got me thinking- why does the Dominion struggle to make it? Federation personnel were able to produce a workable synthetic version within a few days, when they had a captured Jem'Hadar youth on board the station. So why couldn't the Dominion , with far greater experience with the drug, make more themselves?

I know there was a specific substance they needed, but surely if the Federation could make a substitute, the Dominion could too?

I would assume that it has to do with scale, and also command of the resources needed to make the drug. I mean, it's one thing to synthesize a limited batch of the drug from readily available resources in an established economy (Dr Bashir in his lab). It's a completely different thing to manufacture military size stockpiles for your millions strong Jem'Hadar force when you're cut off from your established industrial base, have to first conquer the resources needed to synthesize it, and then establish the economy of scale needed to support said force for the duration of the conflict. This is to say nothing about the bureaucracy needed to distribute it to the Vorta who then give it out to their Jem'Hadar subordinates.

As it was, we don't really see a shortage play out (as I recall anyway) on screen, and the Alpha Quadrant alliance still gets a good ass whipping during most of the war. I'd say that the Dominion's forces in the AQ were able to overcome the handicaps I mentioned above through the expertise they had in the drug, like OP mentioned.

Maybe they also didn't want to create a precedent for the ability to make the white away from the pre-existing GQ infrastructure? A key issue for its use was that it was presented as a gift from the Founders, so making it elsewhere for local distribution affects that control.

darth_timon wrote:I was pondering DS9 the other day and it occurred to me: during the early months of the war, the Dominion was concerned about stores of white running out. This got me thinking- why does the Dominion struggle to make it? Federation personnel were able to produce a workable synthetic version within a few days, when they had a captured Jem'Hadar youth on board the station. So why couldn't the Dominion , with far greater experience with the drug, make more themselves?

Assuming we're talking about the same episode (DS9: The Abandoned), the Federation did NOT synthesize Ketracel White, they used vials they salvaged from a wrecked ship.

Sidewinder wrote:

darth_timon wrote:I was pondering DS9 the other day and it occurred to me: during the early months of the war, the Dominion was concerned about stores of white running out. This got me thinking- why does the Dominion struggle to make it? Federation personnel were able to produce a workable synthetic version within a few days, when they had a captured Jem'Hadar youth on board the station. So why couldn't the Dominion , with far greater experience with the drug, make more themselves?

Assuming we're talking about the same episode (DS9: The Abandoned), the Federation did NOT synthesize Ketracel White, they used vials they salvaged from a wrecked ship.

My bad. I was going with a fuzzy recollection. Perhaps then, it's like Brannon and Gandalf said (and both are possibilities I hadn't thought of).

Another little ponderance along the same lines- when the Federation destroyed the production facility, they then made a feint (at least I think they did- I might be recalling things from a non canon novel instead) for a reserve of the stuff. However, they never planned to capture or destroy it. Surely seizing remaining supplies of white would be even better for them, if the opportunity was there, rather than making a song and dance about it?

Also keep in mind, that for a while, they were using the Sona as suppliers of ketracel white, until the events of Insurrection made the Sona stop supplying the Dominion. Weyoun even notes in season 7 that they shouldn't be expecting any more supplies of white to arrive anymore, as the Sona have switched sides.

darth_timon wrote:Another little ponderance along the same lines- when the Federation destroyed the production facility, they then made a feint (at least I think they did- I might be recalling things from a non canon novel instead) for a reserve of the stuff. However, they never planned to capture or destroy it. Surely seizing remaining supplies of white would be even better for them, if the opportunity was there, rather than making a song and dance about it?

Why should the Feds seize Ketracel White, instead of destroying it? So they could force the Jem'Hadar to switch sides? That's impossible- the Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered to be absolutely loyal to the Founders, to the point of seeing the Founders as GODS.

Unless you're suggesting the Feds use Ketracel White as a steroid or other performance enhancer, but even then, I doubt it would be useful- the White is essential to Jem'Hadar, who are genetically engineered to need it. It's unlikely to have beneficial effects on other species.

Sidewinder wrote:

darth_timon wrote:Another little ponderance along the same lines- when the Federation destroyed the production facility, they then made a feint (at least I think they did- I might be recalling things from a non canon novel instead) for a reserve of the stuff. However, they never planned to capture or destroy it. Surely seizing remaining supplies of white would be even better for them, if the opportunity was there, rather than making a song and dance about it?

Why should the Feds seize Ketracel White, instead of destroying it? So they could force the Jem'Hadar to switch sides? That's impossible- the Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered to be absolutely loyal to the Founders, to the point of seeing the Founders as GODS.

Unless you're suggesting the Feds use Ketracel White as a steroid or other performance enhancer, but even then, I doubt it would be useful- the White is essential to Jem'Hadar, who are genetically engineered to need it. It's unlikely to have beneficial effects on other species.

Actually, the Season Four episode 'To the Death' features renegade Jem'Hadar. They no longer obey the Founders. They are still somewhat in awe of them (as evidenced by when Odo showed up), but Weyoun didn't seem to believe they could simply be ordered to stand down.

Also, the mere existence of White is a sign that genetic engineering alone isn't enough with the Jem'Hadar. Hence the requirement for an additional measure of control. If the Federation had that control, it would at the very least give the Dominion pause.

Sidewinder wrote:Why should the Feds seize Ketracel White, instead of destroying it? So they could force the Jem'Hadar to switch sides? That's impossible- the Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered to be absolutely loyal to the Founders, to the point of seeing the Founders as GODS.

An unwillingness to write off the entire Jem'Hadar species would certainly be in keeping with a more idealistic Federation. If the Federation ever found a Jem'Hadar Teal'c they'd want to be able to offer him Ketracel White, either synthesised or stockpiled.

Since you've all given some great answers, I would like to ask an entirely new question. I'm wondering why the Dominion didn't just manufacture new Jem'Hadar without the white addiction? In the early stages of the war, it was a hindrance. I mean, okay, you could forgive it while the wormhole was still open, but after it was closed (and the Prophets refused to let any Jem'Hadar ships through), then you have to turn to making the war easier for yourself. Ensuring the Jem'Hadar are loyal with the white helps in the short term solution, but in the long term, they have a crippling weakness that can be easily exploited. And I know they had to ensure loyalty, but they could at least begin keeping some of the new Jem'Hadar off the drug, at least half their forces. If the war ever gets won, then they could just bring new Jem'Hadar in from the Gamma Quadrant and use them as a presence to ensure the loyalty of the Alphas. Just my opinion, though.

the klingons were engineered without the white failsafe too, and look what happened there.

Well, yeah, but the Klingons weren't given a genetic predisposition that made them absolutely loyal to the Founders, were they? It just seems to me, if you have limited supplies of the white, try to make less dependent on them, and then place both white-dependent Jem'Hadar and non-dependent Jem'Hadar in the same squadron so that the white-dependent Jem'Hadar are there as the Founders' presence and the non-dependent Jem'Hadar can be reminded of their obligations or in case they do go wild. This would have been a really nifty little plot twist when it came to the Alpha Jem'Hadar: They are not dependent on white while the Gamma Jem'Hadar are.

Lord Falcon wrote:Well, yeah, but the Klingons weren't given a genetic predisposition that made them absolutely loyal to the Founders, were they? It just seems to me, if you have limited supplies of the white, try to make less dependent on them, and then place both white-dependent Jem'Hadar and non-dependent Jem'Hadar in the same squadron so that the white-dependent Jem'Hadar are there as the Founders' presence and the non-dependent Jem'Hadar can be reminded of their obligations or in case they do go wild. This would have been a really nifty little plot twist when it came to the Alpha Jem'Hadar: They are not dependent on white while the Gamma Jem'Hadar are.

I think you've missed the point of the Jem' Hadar.

We've seen that periodically, they do rebel. (Hippocratic Oath and To The Death.) They're also apparently easy to breed en masse, and thus become pretty expendable. So it would be better to lose they occasional group to white deprivation than lose a failsafe should they rebel, because they are the Dominion's primary means of defence/oppression.

Furthermore, it hasn't been established what the infrastructure was like in the GQ. Ketracel White distribution areas might be like a McDonalds.

First, were the difficulties in making it on Alpha Quadrant side of the wormhole or in general, I forget which it might have been.

It could be that the synthetic version used components that the Founders simply weren't aware of (they don't exist in their neck of the galaxy), or if they did they simply weren't aware of where to locate them in the Alpha quadrant (I doubt they had time to extensively recon every planet and region in it, whereas the Federation and its allies could be expected to know pretty well where to find the needed stuff.) Heck, difficulty locating the needed ingredients may have been a bottleneck in the Alpha Quadrant as well (possibly why they only had a single supplier?)

Lord Falcon wrote:Well, yeah, but the Klingons weren't given a genetic predisposition that made them absolutely loyal to the Founders, were they? It just seems to me, if you have limited supplies of the white, try to make less dependent on them, and then place both white-dependent Jem'Hadar and non-dependent Jem'Hadar in the same squadron so that the white-dependent Jem'Hadar are there as the Founders' presence and the non-dependent Jem'Hadar can be reminded of their obligations or in case they do go wild. This would have been a really nifty little plot twist when it came to the Alpha Jem'Hadar: They are not dependent on white while the Gamma Jem'Hadar are.

My point is that the Klingons are a engineered warrior race who rose up and destroyed their creators before carving a bloody empire in the stars. The failsafe IS an important well, failsfe, for the Dominion. The risk long term from its removal outweighs any current logistical issues.

Connor MacLeod wrote:First, were the difficulties in making it on Alpha Quadrant side of the wormhole or in general, I forget which it might have been.

I don't think any difference was established.

It could be that the synthetic version used components that the Founders simply weren't aware of (they don't exist in their neck of the galaxy), or if they did they simply weren't aware of where to locate them in the Alpha quadrant (I doubt they had time to extensively recon every planet and region in it, whereas the Federation and its allies could be expected to know pretty well where to find the needed stuff.) Heck, difficulty locating the needed ingredients may have been a bottleneck in the Alpha Quadrant as well (possibly why they only had a single supplier?)

After Sacrifice of Angels, the AQ Dominion settled in and started looking to making their way independent of the GQ Dominion. I presume that at some point they just learned to make it on the AQ side of the wormhole, just like they made Jem' Hadar there. The Vorta apparently have cloning facilities, so some Vorta scientists must have the recipe or at least a vague way of how to make it.

Was it ever established in canon that the Klingons were a genetically engineered race?

Yes, Jem'Hadar do occasionally rebel, but considering how many billions of Jem'Hadar there are, this occurrence seems to be not exactly rare, but not exactly common either. My point is, if the Federation was to sabotage their white, then they'd rebel anyway and the end results would be the same, and if you survived, you'd soon fall into Federation custody. If it was me, I would have stretched out their white supplies, but then again, I'm not the leader of a xenophobic interplanetary empire.

Lord Falcon wrote:Yes, Jem'Hadar do occasionally rebel, but considering how many billions of Jem'Hadar there are, this occurrence seems to be not exactly rare, but not exactly common either.

Jem' Hadar are cheap, the lives they protect aren't. They're entrusted with a lot of power as the stick of the Dominion's rule. Why take any risks?

I've elected to ignore the baffling and stupid parts of your post.

No, address them. I'm always interested in learning. Just don't be nasty about it.

re: klingons as created race, huh - I thought it was canon. can't find anything except

The Klingon afterlife was supposedly divided into two branches. The dishonored were taken to Gre'thor aboard the Barge of the Dead, a vessel captained by Kortar, the first Klingon. Kortar was supposedly the one who had originally killed the gods who created him and was condemned to ferry the dishonored to Gre'thor as a punishment.

and the repeated joke the Klingon's killed their gods when they became a nuisance, but that might just refer to dismantling organised region.

The Dominion seemed to be hard-pressed to make enough of the stuff as they wanted the Kabrel System from the Federation, as said system could be used to produce as much of the drug as they needed.

In 'Penumbra', Weyoun moved Dominion forces to protect a Ketracel White storehouse because the Sona had made the Federation aware of the facility. So we know how the Dominion were acquiring White. They were buying it from the Sona.

One wonders how much the events of Insurrection affected the Dominion's access to White, seeing as how the Sona and Baku reunited and were partners with the Federation.