StarDestroyer.Net BBS

We've heard the beloved overlord (and I mean that affectionately ) talk about how Troi was lying or in self-denial when she's told various people over the years about how the future is free from the evils of our current society. I want to offer up an alternate perspective to that argument. Now, am I denying the Federation is Communist? No, they definitely are. But what I am saying is this. In First Contact, Troi never said they didn't have disease in their own time. I think what she might have meant is that the current diseases for the past are gone. This actually makes a lot of sense to me since in Star Trek they look down on their ancestors and hate the past for no good reason other than the fact that "they weren't us." Look at Riker arrogantly looking down on three people from the 20th century, thinking they were primitive and stupid and evil because they came from a time when they supposedly weren't as "enlightened" as they are. They disrespect the past to the point where they seem almost ashamed of it, and I think this is what Troi had on her mind when she said that.

Thoughts?

Lord Falcon wrote:We've heard the beloved overlord (and I mean that affectionately ) talk about how Troi was lying or in self-denial when she's told various people over the years about how the future is free from the evils of our current society. I want to offer up an alternate perspective to that argument. Now, am I denying the Federation is Communist? No, they definitely are. But what I am saying is this. In First Contact, Troi never said they didn't have disease in their own time. I think what she might have meant is that the current diseases for the past are gone. This actually makes a lot of sense to me since in Star Trek they look down on their ancestors and hate the past for no good reason other than the fact that "they weren't us." Look at Riker arrogantly looking down on three people from the 20th century, thinking they were primitive and stupid and evil because they came from a time when they supposedly weren't as "enlightened" as they are. They disrespect the past to the point where they seem almost ashamed of it, and I think this is what Troi had on her mind when she said that.

Thoughts?

My first thought is you should really cut the sucking up.

My second thought is you seem to be stating the obvious but in really bizarre ways. From a 24th century perspective, the 20th century IS primitive and stupid and even evil. I share that perspective and I was born in it. Was Riker a bit harsh with his assessment of the people that were thawed out in 'The Neutral Zone'? Maybe with regards to Clare. But Sonny and Ralph? Holy shit those guys were annoying. One guy died due to a fucked up liver, and the first thing he does when he wakes up? Goes to the replicator and orders a fucking martini. The other guy was like 'zomg i gotta go check my portfolio' and was pushy. These guys were literally brought back to life and not one of them even said thank you. Not even Clare did in that scene. Some of that could be excused due to the shock of waking up after so long, but Ralph was acting like an obnoxious rich white guy and Sonny demonstrated himself to be an alcoholic and at the same time threw in an insult at the crew when Data said TV went out of fashion in the mid-21st century (may have been all that nuclear fallout that took place around that time).

As for the whole disease angle, well yeah. The medical technology in Trek is for the most part unbelievably good. And for being a bunch of commies, I'd live in the Federation in a second if given the chance. No crime, no famine, no war, no poverty, great healthcare for a lot of shit even if they haven't perfectly cured every disease? Even if some of that is exaggerated (the whole no crime bit is definitely an exaggeration, on the whole though it seems like the Federation doesn't have a huge problem with crime - unlike virtually every fucking country today), I'd still take that over what we have today - and I live in one of the most privileged fucking countries on this planet.

So if the Feds see the past as backward, stupid and ignorant...that pretty much makes them the same as us, who see, say, the 15th century as backward, stupid, and ignorant. And in both cases, from the 'present' POV, that's pretty much true.

How am I sucking up when I'm just trying to be polite? Forgive me if I want to be kind to people.

And it was just a thought. In the same way that we view primitive people, as you pointed out, Srelex.

What struck me as odd about that episode is how the feds are quick to judge these thawed-out people, slow to actually council them on what has transpired in the 300+ years since they were frozen, and apparently oblivious to, well, the circumstances the Earth was in during the time they lived.

I mean, historically, behaviors were considered perfectly acceptable, while now they are condemned. But if you look at the events leading up to that point in time and society as a whole, it kinda makes sense *why* people acted the way they did, (mind you I don't endorse said beliefs).

They probably felt that they just needed to help their self actualisation, as they would with 24th century people. They weren't understanding of the needs of insecure 20th century people.

I'd actually argue the way the Feds were in those early eps was intentional, but it was also part of what was established by their interactions with the Q throughout the series (from Encounter at Farpoint to All good things.) You could say that the UFP was struggling to achieve some sort of 'ideal' in their lives and society, whilst trying to struggle in an essentially unfriendly universe. Sort of a 'Federation utopia/philosophy' vs the 'nature of humanity itself', and I'm not sure it always presented the Federation perspective in a wholly positive light either.

In a broader picture I tend to also view it with regards to what I remember from the TMP novelizations and how Kirk and his contemporaries were something of an 'old breed' dying out to be replaced by a 'new' generation (an allusion perhaps to the generations leading to the TNG era.) You can see a sort of 'old breed' aspect to some of the stuff in the ST movies if you look, esp with Star Trek VI, IMHO.