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Don't know if this has been done or not, but i watched Q who episode of TNG yesterday, and the borg cube lasers out a chunk of the saucer section. Worf also says "Some kind of laser is cutting into the saucer section" said chunk is then tractored to the cube, killing 18 crew members in that section.
Just raised this cos it's definately a laser (despite being visible in a vacuum, but let's ignore that).

Rye wrote:Don't know if this has been done or not, but i watched Q who episode of TNG yesterday, and the borg cube lasers out a chunk of the saucer section. Worf also says "Some kind of laser is cutting into the saucer section" said chunk is then tractored to the cube, killing 18 crew members in that section.
Just raised this cos it's definately a laser (despite being visible in a vacuum, but let's ignore that).

So? This has ONLY been known for YEARS.

[Rabid Trekkie mode]But, you see they said "somekind of a lazer". That CLEARLY indicates that it was no ORDINARY lazer, but rather somekind of a SPECIAL lazer. Those wimpy ordinary LAZER cannons of ISDs can't even penetrate the deflectors of E-D!

TREK RULEZ!!! WARZ BLOWZ!!![/Rabid Trekkie mode]

A rabid Trekker could argue that the laser was used on the hull, not on the shield or navigation deflector, and therefore it doesn't infer with the "shields immune to lasers" myth.

Minor flaw with that though.

The Nav deflectors are seperate from the shields, and therefore would not be affected by the Borg shield-draining weapon like the battle shields were, at least I think thats how it worked.

Come on. The mere fact that the E-D suffers damage from sitting too close to a star proved the "infinite immunity to lasers" myth wrong.

Darth Servo wrote:Come on. The mere fact that the E-D suffers damage from sitting too close to a star proved the "infinite immunity to lasers" myth wrong.

I'm aware of that. The problem is that the scientific ignoramuses (ie. Lord Edam) believe that there is somehow a distinction between normal EM radiation and lasers, without showing how that difference would affect the shield interaction with those weapons. Moreover, they ALSO ignore other episodes of the show in which lasers have posed a danger to the E-D, and one instance in which a laser weapon actually DAMAGED the E-D.

All one must do is visit the Star Trek Canon Database of this site, look under the "shields" part, and one will find a slew of quotes from the show about how being close to stars is dangerous, how lasers are dangerous, and many, many others. Its too bad it hasn't been updated for DS9 or Voyager (did Mike even watch that? Hmmm probably not).

What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

Macross wrote:In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

The answer is that the "Lasers have no effect of shields" argument is bullshit.

And yes, I know that was your point in the first place.

There was also the one where Picard refused to carry a diplomat to a particular planet at war because there was heavy usage of lasers in the area. *shrug* Same old song and dance. We say something, Trekkies quickly sidestep to find a reason why it can't be true.

Rye wrote:Don't know if this has been done or not, but i watched Q who episode of TNG yesterday, and the borg cube lasers out a chunk of the saucer section. Worf also says "Some kind of laser is cutting into the saucer section" said chunk is then tractored to the cube, killing 18 crew members in that section.
Just raised this cos it's definately a laser (despite being visible in a vacuum, but let's ignore that).

This is old news. Anyone with half a brain already knows about this and understands the circumstances from which the invincible to lasers quote come from.

Macross wrote:What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

Anyone ever try and determine the strength of those lasers by figuring out how much momentum they had to shove the ship around like that? Course that ignores the fact that AMRE might have been going at the time.

Macross wrote:What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

Well, the shields aren't generated from nothing. The force of the strikes against shields has to be coped with; Michael has a page that address this very thing, though I do not remember its title (I believe it's at the very top of the tech page).

Also, we never see the shielded E-D shaken by laser blasts in "Conundrum." The shot you're thinking of is from a Lysian destroyer firing low-powered disruptors...

There are craft armed with lasers in that episode, like the Lysian attack drones ("fusion-powered lasers...not much power there"), but we do not see the E-D rock under their impacts. The Lysian HQ is also armed with big laser cannons, yet it doesn't fire on the E-D.

But yeah, the no lasers myth is retarded.

Rye wrote:Don't know if this has been done or not, but i watched Q who episode of TNG yesterday, and the borg cube lasers out a chunk of the saucer section. Worf also says "Some kind of laser is cutting into the saucer section" said chunk is then tractored to the cube, killing 18 crew members in that section.
Just raised this cos it's definately a laser (despite being visible in a vacuum, but let's ignore that).

This was only after the shields were down, though.

My "theory" concerning Picard's statement is that he actually didn't mean navigation deflectors stop lasers at all. Think about that for a minute...the nav deflectors supposedly extend some ways around a starship (front and/or rear...more on that if you wish), to the tune of several hundred meters if not a couple of kilometers, designed solely to push interstellar crap out of the ship's way.

Why would lasers fall under "interstellar crap"? They're a very intense form of light; however, nav deflectors do NOT block light from reaching a starship's hull. We see the hull brightly lit from proximity to luminescent bodies in space. If they do not block light, they should not block lasers either. Simple stuff.

What Picard probably meant is simply that races which typically use lasers are relatively unsophisticated; and, more importantly, they don't have significant power to put behind their guns. Therefore, he likened the fairly unpowerful nav deflectors to a standard shield which, even at low power, could easily deal with said laser shots.

I know that is very wordy. I apologize for that. Hopefully you get the idea; i.e., Picard was talking about combat shields vs. lasers, but he regarded those lasers as non-threatening even to a shield that draws as little power as do nav deflectors.

Let me put it one more way because I am increasingly drunk and thinking I am making less and less sense!

Picard's thought was not literally that "nav deflectors stop all lasers." Rather, he figured that a low-protection, low-powered shield (sort of like a nav deflector) should easily withstand those megawatt-ranged laser shots (or whatever).

Agh, beer.

seanrobertson wrote:

Rye wrote:Don't know if this has been done or not, but i watched Q who episode of TNG yesterday, and the borg cube lasers out a chunk of the saucer section. Worf also says "Some kind of laser is cutting into the saucer section" said chunk is then tractored to the cube, killing 18 crew members in that section.
Just raised this cos it's definately a laser (despite being visible in a vacuum, but let's ignore that).

This was only after the shields were down, though.

But not the nav deflector, as they went to warp right away afterwards, something they could not have done without the nav deflector (well, they might have been able ot, but it would have been risky. Die from hitting a micrometeorite at 1000 C, or Die from the cube)

Macross wrote:What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

if you fire anything at the shields a pea shooter ect... it'll have an effect on them, the fact that the ship was shaking due to a laser hit doesn't mean it damaged the ship, just that the laser had some kintic impact on the ship. causing her to move.

Ender wrote: But not the nav deflector, as they went to warp right away afterwards, something they could not have done without the nav deflector (well, they might have been able ot, but it would have been risky. Die from hitting a micrometeorite at 1000 C, or Die from the cube)

I agree. Their nav deflectors had to've been up.

What I'm thinking is, maybe nav deflectors aren't intended to stop lasers at all. They certainly don't stop light from a star from reaching the ship, illuminating the hull and all...seems odd it'd block a very low-intensity form of light but would stop lasers.

This is how I explain it: when Picard said, "Lasers? Laserswon't even penetrate our navigation deflectors...don't they know that?" he did not actually mean NDs should stop lasers.

Rather, he thought that lasers--which are typically used by pretty low-tech, unpowerful folks in Trek--wouldn't affect dedicated shields that require relatively small amounts of power, comparable to that which the ND draws, to operate.

I realize it is a highly f-ked up sounding way to rationalize Picard's seemingly clear statement and the fact that external light reaches the E-D's hull. But, it's not as if there are other times we should probably be somewhat creative while interpreting a character's statement about technology; e.g., Riker's comment about a terawatt as "more power than the entire ship can generate" which, from other dialogue, we take to mean the non-FTL engines (since Geordi mentions the warp core "normally kicks plasma up into the TW range" among other things).

seanrobertson wrote:

Macross wrote:What about the TNG episode "Conundrum." Thats the episode were the crew is under the influence of a alien being, who wants to use the Enterprise to destroy his enemies main base.

In that episode the Enterprise is hit repeatedly by lasers, and the ship was shaking around a bit. If regular lasers have no effect on the Ent-D shields, then why were they causing the ship to shake around so much???

Well, the shields aren't generated from nothing. The force of the strikes against shields has to be coped with; Michael has a page that address this very thing, though I do not remember its title (I believe it's at the very top of the tech page).

Also, we never see the shielded E-D shaken by laser blasts in "Conundrum." The shot you're thinking of is from a Lysian destroyer firing low-powered disruptors...

There are craft armed with lasers in that episode, like the Lysian attack drones ("fusion-powered lasers...not much power there"), but we do not see the E-D rock under their impacts. The Lysian HQ is also armed with big laser cannons, yet it doesn't fire on the E-D.

But yeah, the no lasers myth is retarded.

Its been a while since ive seen the episode, so I only remembered the ships armed with lasers.

Anyway, I just read Wongs shield analysis, and I think you're confusing the damage effects from an energy weapon with that of a physical weapon. Energy Weapons wouldnt produce as large of a kinetic impact (if any) as a physical weapon. Still, one would think that on a Starship with artificial gravity, structural integrity fields, inertial dampeners and the like, they would have some sort of "shock absorbtion" system to negate or lessen the physical effects felt on the ship from a shield impact. Especially on a ship with civilians and children onboard.

seanrobertson wrote: What I'm thinking is, maybe nav deflectors aren't intended to stop lasers at all. They certainly don't stop light from a star from reaching the ship, illuminating the hull and all...seems odd it'd block a very low-intensity form of light but would stop lasers.
.

the shields don't stop light from illuminating the hull either, I think the quote it taken out of context, more then anything else. the defector from what I know is forward facing object and as such as a limited coverage. it would be silly to assume that it could cover all the hull like the shields, but I think that if a laser strike was made againist an area in the limited coverage of the deflector it would be repeled, the fact the borg where able to cut through the enterprise hull in an area not covered by the deflector go no way to proving the deflector can't stop lasers.

Its been a while since ive seen the episode, so I only remembered the ships armed with lasers.

Okay. The destroyer had disruptors, but the defense drones had lasers.
Many have gotten the two confused.

Anyway, I just read Wongs shield analysis, and I think you're confusing the damage effects from an energy weapon with that of a physical weapon. Energy Weapons wouldnt produce as large of a kinetic impact (if any) as a physical weapon.

Indeed, but now I'm puzzled...where is the confusion? I'm not sure what you're driving at. I know of no damage effects in "Conundrum," not on the E-D. It was the disruptor hit that rocked the ship, but the E's shields were up and under no kind of threat (especially since a weapon some 10x more powerful had "no effect" in "Survivors"; i.e., the very first shot from the Husnock warship).

Still, one would think that on a Starship with artificial gravity, structural integrity fields, inertial dampeners and the like, they would have some sort of "shock absorbtion" system to negate or lessen the physical effects felt on the ship from a shield impact. Especially on a ship with civilians and children onboard.

They supposedly do, but the AMRE of an impulse-driven ship might mean that a pretty low-powered weapon can rock even the most massive-at-rest ship around.

Macross wrote: Its been a while since ive seen the episode, so I only remembered the ships armed with lasers.

Anyway, I just read Wongs shield analysis, and I think you're confusing the damage effects from an energy weapon with that of a physical weapon. Energy Weapons wouldnt produce as large of a kinetic impact (if any) as a physical weapon. Still, one would think that on a Starship with artificial gravity, structural integrity fields, inertial dampeners and the like, they would have some sort of "shock absorbtion" system to negate or lessen the physical effects felt on the ship from a shield impact. Especially on a ship with civilians and children onboard.

what i'd say to wongs shield analysis is atleast in trek shields , there seems to be some interaction takes place which results in a kinetic force, after all looking at the shield it doesn't seem disapate the energy, it doesn't reflect it away as claimed by the TM, so the energy has to go somewhere. heat and a kinetic reaction with the shield would be my theory.

as a side note, if a kinetic reaction occoured in the shields it would probably help the craft evade fire by shooting it of in another direction, pity that doesn't happen in trek isn't it.

seanrobertson wrote: I agree. Their nav deflectors had to've been up.

What I'm thinking is, maybe nav deflectors aren't intended to stop lasers at all. They certainly don't stop light from a star from reaching the ship, illuminating the hull and all...seems odd it'd block a very low-intensity form of light but would stop lasers.

This is how I explain it: when Picard said, "Lasers? Laserswon't even penetrate our navigation deflectors...don't they know that?" he did not actually mean NDs should stop lasers.

Rather, he thought that lasers--which are typically used by pretty low-tech, unpowerful folks in Trek--wouldn't affect dedicated shields that require relatively small amounts of power, comparable to that which the ND draws, to operate.

I believe there is canon evidence for these low power shields. In the episode where Troy is dressed up as a Tal'Shiar, the cloaked Romulan ship
announced the Enterprise's shields were at normal levels, implying they had low power shields, just like you described, up and running. And that this is normal.

Wrath wrote:if you fire anything at the shields a pea shooter ect... it'll have an effect on them, the fact that the ship was shaking due to a laser hit doesn't mean it damaged the ship, just that the laser had some kintic impact on the ship. causing her to move.

You need sufficient momentum to make a ship as big as the E-D move noticably. Yes, a pea-shooter will impart some momentum to the Enterprise. Will this change be noticable? Absolutely not. The lasers in Conundrum were stated as "2.1 megajoules." That is NOT sufficient energy to cause any noticeable movement on a ship massing millions of tons.

the shields don't stop light from illuminating the hull either

So you admit that some laser energy will get through. Concession accepted. Don't you realize what this discussion is about? There is an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors are somehow magically immune to any and all lasers based on a one little quote in "Outrageous Okona".

I think that if a laser strike was made againist an area in the limited coverage of the deflector it would be repeled, the fact the borg where able to cut through the enterprise hull in an area not covered by the deflector go no way to proving the deflector can't stop lasers.

We don't NEED to prove that Fed nav deflectors can't stop lasers regardless of energy level. The burden of proof is on the person argueing that the nav-deflector can stop lasers of any power level.

The fact is, if a 2.1 MJ weapon can make the E-D shake noticeably, then the only possible conclusion is that some of the energy penetrated the defense systems and interfered with the sensitive equipment inside the ship responsible for keeping the ship steady.

what i'd say to wongs shield analysis is atleast in trek shields , there seems to be some interaction takes place which results in a kinetic force, after all looking at the shield it doesn't seem disapate the energy, it doesn't reflect it away as claimed by the TM, so the energy has to go somewhere. heat and a kinetic reaction with the shield would be my theory.

Too bad you have no evidence to back up this little "theory" of yours. A theory without any evidence is worthless.

Darth Servo wrote:You need sufficient momentum to make a ship as big as the E-D move noticably. Yes, a pea-shooter will impart some momentum to the Enterprise. Will this change be noticable? Absolutely not. The lasers in Conundrum were stated as "2.1 megajoules." That is NOT sufficient energy to cause any noticeable movement on a ship massing millions of tons.

never said a peashooter would make the ship move I said they would have an effect on the shields. also as proof on the fact that the shields do infact have a reaction with lasers and phasers , is by the fact that the ship rocks when it shouldn't move at all.

So you admit that some laser energy will get through. Concession accepted. Don't you realize what this discussion is about? There is an old Trekkie myth that the nav-deflectors are somehow magically immune to any and all lasers based on a one little quote in "Outrageous Okona".

doesn't work like that i'm afraid, Lasers have wavelengths, within the light specturm as i'm sure you know so just because the shields let visable light through does not mean they will let a laser in. to put it frank a laser energy would all get through or none of it would unless it was a "different" type to what is used in modern day, which uses varying wavelengths in the laser allowing some energy to get past the shield.

We don't NEED to prove that Fed nav deflectors can't stop lasers regardless of energy level. The burden of proof is on the person argueing that the nav-deflector can stop lasers of any power level.

The fact is, if a 2.1 MJ weapon can make the E-D shake noticeably, then the only possible conclusion is that some of the energy penetrated the defense systems and interfered with the sensitive equipment inside the ship responsible for keeping the ship steady.

the statement is proof in itself, unless there is counter evidence to disprove the statement. I believe thats how canon evidence works, charter statements are below visable evidence. so unless you have proof of a laser strike on the area of the ship the nav deflector covers the statement is true.

the second point, no its not the only possable conclusion you already stated that energy is not enough to move a ship of the enterprises size, to make the ship vibrate would mean there is some large kinetic force acting apon the ship which can't have come from that laser energy as you have already stated. so the conlusion that the shields react in some way with incoming energy loads would seem so be supported by this statement.

Too bad you have no evidence to back up this little "theory" of yours. A theory without any evidence is worthless.

see above.