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In the TNG episode Yesterday's Enterprise (s.3 e.15), the USS Enterprise-D encounters its predecessor, the Enterprise-C. During the episode, it's learned that the United Federation of Planets is at war with the Klingon Empire. The war, according to Picard, is going badly, and Starfleet projections show that Starfleet will have no choice but to surrender to the Klingon Empire to avoid complete destruction.

Captain Picard to Captain Captain Garrett wrote:"The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known. Starfleet Command believes that defeat is inevitable. Within six months, we may have no choice but to surrender."
"Are you saying all this may be a result of our arrival here?"
"One more ship will make no difference in the here and now, but twenty-two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started."

The differences between the Picard as shown in the rest of the season and how he reacts in this episode shows the extent to which the Federation has changed its tactics. The Enterprise is referred to not as a vessel of exploration but as a battleship, and that instead of housing families, it holds troops only. The very idea of placing families aboard a warship seems ridiculous to Picard. In fact, when facing ultimate destruction at the hands of the Klingon vessels and offered a chance to surrender, Picard quips, "That'll be the day."

The war has obviously affected everyone in Starfleet. Research is on the back burner as the Federation fights for its very life against the Empire, with vessels regardless of age being pressed into service. No doubt many ships, including obsolete Constitution class vessels, were being pushed into service as fast as possible. Forty billion lives were reported lost, no doubt by invading Klingon forces and a few orbital bombardments. Whether that number is merely Federation casualties or a combined estimate, it's still a significant loss.

The ultimate point of this discussion is to discuss the war's beginning, tactics used by both sides, the reason for perpetuating the war, and the ultimate conclusion of the war. The assumption for the war's conclusion is that the Federation, out of desperation, proposes a surrender to the Klingon Empire. What would the Klingon terms for surrender be, if they don't use the standard 'surrender without terms'? Would the Federation become a puppet state or have all its worlds find Klingon military governors installed to 'maintain order'? What would become of Starfleet and its ships?

for the start of the war the episode in question implies that the tension between UFP and the Klingon empire resurfused sometime between the TUC and the loss of Ent-C, while we don't know how it seems "traditionalist" have taken over the Klingon empire since TUC so that might be why, what the final flashpoint that made high tension turn into a war is unknown, but it might even be irrelevent.

I suspect that the loss of the Enterprise (NCC-1701-C) served as a way to ease the tension because of it's symbolic nature, since from a tactical or stratedic point of view the Enterprise's mission to protect the colony was an utter failure, not only was the Klingon colony still destroyed, Enterprise was (as far as Klingons or UFP) with all hands, how ever it showed a federation ship would willing to defend a klingon colony again a mutual enemy even if it meant giving their lives in the process and that said ship as the Enterprise probably made it even a stronger symbol.

Since we essentially know jack all about the war other than that a)the Feds were losing and b) the E-C dying to protect Narendra III prevented it from happening I'm not really sure what's there to discuss.

Batman wrote:Since we essentially know jack all about the war other than that a)the Feds were losing and b) the E-C dying to protect Narendra III prevented it from happening I'm not really sure what's there to discuss.

Well, from what we know, the Klingon Empire was no doubt in a position to when the war started, they were able to introduce a large fleet... they would have to be, given the way the Enterprise-D was able to combat several of their cruisers alone and still take out quite a few. It was only the scout's surprise that it got away with damaging either ship the way it did.

If you look at the tactics the Klingons use, they seem to hunt in small wolf pack formations, remaining cloaked until necessary to strike and trying to overwhelm individual Federation targets. I suspect this isn't a bad tactic given Starfleet's tendency to send individual ships to deal with situations rather than the Klingon reliance of sending multiple ships, as seen numerous times not just here, but also in TMP and DS9. We have seen individual Klingon vessels conducting missions, but they were missions with little importance beyond simple border patrol. So, since they are exhibiting similar tactics that aren't that far from those used in the Dominion War, we could potentially apply them to known Federation tactics for a larger supply of reference.

And don't forget, there's the whole looming question of what would become of the Federation under the terms of a Klingon surrender.

it's not so wise to draw too overreaching conclutions based on the one battle we saw in the episode since we don't know if that was typical engagement for that conflict or not.

A couple things we do know that could have resulted in the war going poorly for the Federation is we know that between TOS and TNG, the UFP was engaged in a of couple wars. The Cardassian War, the Tzenkethi (sp?) and tensions with the Tholians. If the Klingon war flared up during one of those conflicts, Starfleet could have placed in a severe disadvantage. Or for all we know, the Klingons allied with one of those powers outright.

My own theory about the war's conclusion - after the UFP sues for peace and is gutted by the Klingon's terms, the Romulans come out of hiding to wreck havoc on a Klingon Empire depleted by years of war.

How do you even know its 'depleted'? Given the nature of ST travel and combat, the Federation could have been 'losing' for ages (ie losing territory and ships) at little real cost to the Klingons or even the core Federation worlds.

Baffalo wrote:

Batman wrote:Since we essentially know jack all about the war other than that a)the Feds were losing and b) the E-C dying to protect Narendra III prevented it from happening I'm not really sure what's there to discuss.

Well, from what we know, the Klingon Empire was no doubt in a position to when the war started, they were able to introduce a large fleet... they would have to be, given the way the Enterprise-D was able to combat several of their cruisers alone and still take out quite a few.

The E-D managed to take out one and got shot to pieces in the process, and those weren't even cruisers, they were Birds of Prey.

It was only the scout's surprise that it got away with damaging either ship the way it did.

The fact that it managed to damage the E-D at all is pretty telling.

If you look at the tactics the Klingons use, they seem to hunt in small wolf pack formations, remaining cloaked until necessary to strike and trying to overwhelm individual Federation targets. I suspect this isn't a bad tactic given Starfleet's tendency to send individual ships to deal with situations rather than the Klingon reliance of sending multiple ships, as seen numerous times not just here, but also in TMP and DS9.

Doesn't say beans about relative fleet numbers. At best it says something about the way they use they fleets they have. Klingons 1000 ships, Feds 1000 ships. Klingons send 3 ships to kill one Fed, poof, 1 less Fed ship. Repeat ad nauseatum. Doesn't require numerical superiority, just slightly better intelligence and and less atrocious strategical abilities than the Feds have.

We have seen individual Klingon vessels conducting missions, but they were missions with little importance beyond simple border patrol. So, since they are exhibiting similar tactics that aren't that far from those used in the Dominion War, we could potentially apply them to known Federation tactics for a larger supply of reference.

Like Wolf 359, where they send 39 starships? First Contact, where they send Valen alone who knows how many but at least a dozen survived all the way to Sector 001? The Dominion War fleets? Reunion Pt II?
The reason we hardly ever see more than one Fed ship is because they're routinely going into a situation where they don't expect to need more than one ship because it's a science/relief/diplomatic/whatever mission.
Every time we've seen more than one Klingon ship, they were either expecting to be going into a fight or knew for a fact they were.

And don't forget, there's the whole looming question of what would become of the Federation under the terms of a Klingon surrender.

Err-since the Klingons were about to win the War why, exactly, would they surrender?

bats I think he means the UFP surrender to the klingons and just frased it poorly/incorrectly, that said he makes way too over reaching conclutions from the sample size (1 incident of unknown intensity), though IIRC those ships were the cruiser config of the BOP (aka the production team using the same models to depict a ship of totally different scale).

I am aware there are at least 2 different classes of Klingon Bird of Prey, thank you, and neither of them is near the size of a Galaxy-class or a Vor'cha (and that's ignoring the scaling issues with the B'Rel thanks to TVH).

Batman wrote:I am aware there are at least 2 different classes of Klingon Bird of Prey, thank you, and neither of them is near the size of a Galaxy-class or a Vor'cha (and that's ignoring the scaling issues with the B'Rel thanks to TVH).

Eyeballing, while even the cruiser-models (which are the B'Rel) are obviously significantly smaller than a GCS, they're probably about the same volume as the Vor'cha due to their proportions. They've also got far larger (and presumably more powerful) weapons, about the same size as the Negh'var's gun pods or the AGT-GCS's phaser lance.

According to my Star Trek Encyclopedia and Memory Alpha, the K'Vort class is the cruiser one. And the only Klingon BoP that size chart has is the rather smallish kind first seen in TSFS so I'm not entirely sure how you were eyeballing the cruiser version's size using that.

Stark wrote:How do you even know its 'depleted'? Given the nature of ST travel and combat, the Federation could have been 'losing' for ages (ie losing territory and ships) at little real cost to the Klingons or even the core Federation worlds.

I don't. As noted we do not have enough information to go on either way. It was just an assumption based on the fact that it had been a long war, and presumably the Klingons have been somewhat worn down by it, just not to the degree of the Federation. Of course, they could have just as easily built up massive numbers of ships and the UFP is just relying on tenacity at this point (like WW2 in the Pacific).

Batman wrote:According to my Star Trek Encyclopedia and Memory Alpha, the K'Vort class is the cruiser one.

Describing the two as such is a very common mistake, but they're actually identical - the only time "B'Rel" was used on screen was to describe the BoPs attacking in Rascals, which were cruiser models (using stock footage of the K'Vorts in YE).

And the only Klingon BoP that size chart has is the rather smallish kind first seen in TSFS so I'm not entirely sure how you were eyeballing the cruiser version's size using that.

Bollocks. I was trying to link to a specific comparison of the GCS, Vor'cha and BoP, but it didn't work and the cache was playing tricks on me. From the "all" tab select the first Galaxy class option, the Vor'cha and the B'Rel and you should see what I mean.

Batman wrote:The E-D managed to take out one and got shot to pieces in the process, and those weren't even cruisers, they were Birds of Prey.

In the episode, the three klingon ships are specifically identified as "K'voort-class cruisers". There's a big difference between those and the scout ship seen in ST3.

As to the original post questions, a Federation surrender would probably require that all armed Starfleet vessels be turned over to the Empire and that klingon governors be installed on all Federation planets. Military power would therefore be consolidated in klingon hands to prevent any uprisings.

I would like to point out that there is a bit of evidence that goes beyond this episode to that of TNG: The Wounded (s.4 e.12) in which Admiral Haden explains to Picard that after the losses at Wolf 359, the Federation is ill equipped to handle another sustained conflict.

Given that the Cardassians were doing battle with the Federation, at least several territorial skirmishes, combined with the losses caused by guerilla tactics used by Talarians in their own border skirmishes, it sounds like the Federation was stretched thin even without a conflict from the Klingon Empire. The loss of 40 ships apparently being enough to deplete Starfleet of critical reserve strength means that the Federation has stretched itself thin enough that sustained conflict against a reasonably powerful group such as the Klingons would be disastrous, especially if they engage in the tactics we mentioned above in which they pounce on unsuspecting Starfleet vessels to take them out.

While I'm not entirely certain this is true, I wonder if the Klingons managed to get deep inside Federation space using cloaking devices to strike at the Utopia Planetia shipyards around Mars. I ask this because of the large scale production facilities present there. I know it's pure speculation, but those facilities would be producing the bulk of new ships for the Federation and refitting older vessels to serve anew. Could such a critical strike result in the devastation of Starfleet? Without enough repair facilities, it would be difficult to repair vessels to get them back into action, and new starships would be difficult to obtain. Extensive damage would be hard to replace, even at a reasonably good facility, so the most critically damaged vessels would either need to be sent to the breakers or repaired there. Cripple that, and surely you've crippled a vital strategic target.

Baffalo wrote: While I'm not entirely certain this is true, I wonder if the Klingons managed to get deep inside Federation space using cloaking devices to strike at the Utopia Planetia shipyards around Mars. I ask this because of the large scale production facilities present there. I know it's pure speculation, but those facilities would be producing the bulk of new ships for the Federation and refitting older vessels to serve anew. Could such a critical strike result in the devastation of Starfleet? Without enough repair facilities, it would be difficult to repair vessels to get them back into action, and new starships would be difficult to obtain. Extensive damage would be hard to replace, even at a reasonably good facility, so the most critically damaged vessels would either need to be sent to the breakers or repaired there. Cripple that, and surely you've crippled a vital strategic target.

I think that the Federation only has two, maybe three, star systems with 'viable' shipyards: Sol (McKinley, San Francisco Yards, Utopia Planitia), Antares, and Beta Antares (where the Defiant [DS9: The Search - seen on the dedication plaque] and the Prometheus were built at [VOY: Message in a Bottle - also seen on the dedication plaque]). But considering that Beta Antares wasn't even introduced into canon until DS9 was going on and Yesterday's Enterprise was in the 3rd season, it might be safe to conclude that the Beta Antares shipyards weren't even built yet or at least were not used regularly.

So yes, I think that a Klingon strike at Utopia Planitia would cripple the Federation's ship production. They would still have their starbases for repairs but then it'd be a losing battle from there on out which would match Alt-Picard's prediction of the Federation losing the war to the Klingons.

As to what would happen to the Federation? I believe that the Klingons have a name for that: jeg'pu'wi, which means 'Conquered People'. Feds down, next up: Romulans!

And be a) difficult to hide from the fleet and b) probably result in a quick defeat, not a long one.

I know there's a temptation to shoehorn in the few things we know into a made-up structure but come on.

What we do know is that the praxis moon explosion happened about 50 years before. This was supposed to cripple the Klingons if they did not reduce their military expenses. Now a lot could happen in that time, but going from having 20 years of life to winning a war of attrition is impressive. I am thinking the Klingons must have made alliances. Maybe without the Enterprise C building friendship between the Federation and the Klingons the Duras family had greater control, Romulan Economic support?

Praxis was more than likely resolved well before the Ent-C went down as the Klingons were in a position to wage war at that point already.

See the thing with Starfleet, and I think this would weigh heavily on a war of attrition, is that it's superiority comes from it's technology. It's technological advancements come from exploring and getting ships in just enough danger to come up with new ideas and innovations to get them out of trouble, while still allowing them to survive so that those ideas and innovations can filter back through the fleet.

Now, if you take away the exploration and just dangerous enough missions that Starfleet does, and reset them to 22 years prior and just have them engage in combat, you are going to lose a lot of those little advancements and ideas because A) you are just going to be fighting the same dudes over and over again and B) far less ships are going to survive encounters with X Birds of Prey than a silly god that is going to zap you out of danger at the last moment etc., etc..

That I think is what may have contributed the most to the Klingons being able to defeat the Federation. I mean, the Dominion would have stomped the Federation if it weren't for the Wormhole aliens.

What I find preposterous is that with an all out war with the Klingons, the Federation didn't use full scale cloaking tech. "Fuck the treaty with the Romulans" said every Starfleet officer and Federation leader everywhere.
Also the phased cloak project probably never happens the way it did in the middle of a full blown war, but it guarantee it happens in some capacity and probably on a much larger scale.

As to Picard. You just see a different side of his personality be more dominant. The idiot that got stabbed through the heart gets to be more there as he grows up because of the situation. The swashbuckler in him gets to come out more.

In the ST Universe the humans have been shown as conquerable as a race and political group, but never defeated to the point that they can't fight back. I imagine a situation like the humans are in in the Mirror Universe circa DS9 under the yoke of Klingon control for the short term. In the long run, I could see a

Honestly in this scenario I am more interested in the state of the Cardassians, Ferengi and Romulans. Also the inevitable encounters with the Borg and the Dominion and how an aggressive battle tested Klingon lead Alpha Quadrant would deal with them, or if they could.

In my fanfiction the only reason the Federation can still fight at all is because they're patsies in a Romulan Klingon proxy war. Why conquer the poor cripples when that'd just precipitate a real war against a far stronger enemy?

I wonder if in a Klingon dominated timeline if the alpha quadrant races would have adapted as quickly to dominion polaron weapons? Though the Klingons could have ignored the sovereignty of lesser powers of Bajor and Cardassia and fortified the wormhole from the start.

Though Cardassia may be a greater threat of they were able to adsorb resource rich Fed worlds as the federation collapse.

spaceviking wrote:I wonder if in a Klingon dominated timeline if the alpha quadrant races would have adapted as quickly to dominion polaron weapons? Though the Klingons could have ignored the sovereignty of lesser powers of Bajor and Cardassia and fortified the wormhole from the start.

Though Cardassia may be a greater threat of they were able to adsorb resource rich Fed worlds as the federation collapse.

Why do you assume they would have even discovered the wormhole let alone the dominion?

Because it was the Bjarons that discovered the worm hole not the Federation. The Bajoran leaders were using it to levy membership into the Federation.

Now in this scenario, the Federation may not be the most desirable group to hook up with especially as one of the main sticking points was a presence to protect them from Cardassian reoccupation. Starfleet wouldn't have the ships or man power to protect Bajor and the wormhole, but the winning and eventually victorious Klingons would, if they just didn't outright take it.

You think the Klingons wouldn't go through the worm hole?

Sisko and Dax discovered the wormhole.