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This is something that I had been wondering about. If the federation did not use money by the 24th century, how did Miles O'brien and other Starfleet Personnel on DS9 buy drinks at Quarks? Did they ever explain that

Zor

The Federation does have Federation credits, which I imagine can be converted to other currencies.

Or, maybe since it's a Bajoran station, the Starfleet personnel get Bajoran money?

"Put it towards all that rent you're not paying, barkeep."

I'm sure lots of people owed Quark one. Or more than one.

Not having watched much DS9 I can only go off stuff I've heard, but isn't there a currency system that technically isn't legal? Or not recognized, anyway. Gold pressed latinum, or something. That may be an answer.

Ultimately though, there has to be some form of Federation currency that gets issued to people who will be in areas that still use money. Just because you don't use money doesn't mean your neighbor doesn't. DS9's position may put it in a position to need a currency for bartering with people outside the Federation.

There has to be some sort of currency. Imagine a new member world joining up and the UFP saying, "Welcome to the Federation, your money is useless here. Have fun with your economy."

thre has been mentions of Federation Credits (most notebly during the episode where they bargain for that one wormhole), though it's never stated just how valueble credits are or what form they take.

Probably every Starfleet member got some amount of "energy budget" to be spent on replicating things. They could then transfer portions of it to Quark, who could use it to make stuff.

There's mention from Sisko about how he spent his 'Transporter Credits' or 'Energy Credits' or something during his academy days to beam home to eat supper at his Dad's resturaunt on weekends, since that'd be between San Fran and New Orleans.

So there's some rationing of some sort based on energy usage. Perhaps Quark has some kind of replicator limit that needs to come out of customer pockets to keep going, in addition to the Gold-Pressed Latinum as an interstellar medium of exchange.

Both Dax and Bashier have had latinium to pay for things before...

Janeway's mentioned Credits.

Quark will get it one way or another - possibly through re-charges or something.

There are independent contractors in the Federation, like Kasidy Yates, hauling cargo, I assume they don't do it for the glorious lifestyle, but for the money.

The TOS movies also make mention of credits, in spite of contradictory messages from TNG that they no longer use money. And there are characters like Vash who is described as a profiteer and sells historic artifacts for profit despite being a Federation citizen. I think its likely that the history of the Federation's monetary policy goes something like this:

First the Federation began to socialize more and more services in its borders and particularly on highly populated worlds like Earth. Credits were still an important part of the economy at this point and the official currency, but their everyday utility diminished over time. Starships were probably the first place where they became all but redundant in light of rationing, perhaps giving Starfleet officers like Kirk and Picard a biased perspective that this was the case everywhere. Earth, which is often described as paradise, probably followed suit soon after because of economic policy.

At no point, though, were credits officially abandoned, despite official propaganda that humanity had "outgrown" such things which Picard seemed to be contractually obligated to spout in seasons 1 and 2. They were simply no longer visibly useful to most people living near the political center of the Federation. Officers probably have a formal paycheck that they rarely see while on deployment, but while on board a starship replicator rations and energy tabs are the usual means of exchange between crew. Obviously, though, when they interact with other cultures like the Ferengi this means of exchange is useless, so barter and trade are essential skills for starship captains like Janeway.

The Ferengi meanwhile obviously find Picard's propaganda to be absolutely loony, but those are the only Federation Citizens they normally interact with. The officers on DS9 on the other hand are stationed on the border, and so have to dip into their accounts on a more frequent basis to deal with Quark and other non-Federation citizens.

I would also guess that transactions in credits are entirely electronic because it would be a waste of material resources when they aren't being spent all the time.

This seems to cover all of it and all the contradictory dialogue we hear in the franchise.

Formless wrote:The TOS movies also make mention of credits, in spite of contradictory messages from TNG that they no longer use money.

I'm not sure if that is contradictory.

Quark has asked "cash or credit" before.

That distinction is only meaningful if we assume not everyone accepts Federation money. Maybe because Credits are a fiat currency or something, whereas the Ferengi love physical currencies like gold and latinum. Otherwise, money is money-- a means of exchange that has a standardized value so we don't have to do barter all the time.

I view it as similar to how cash vs. credit works these days in our own world. I remember a time when it was routine for the average worker to take their paycheck to the bank on payday and have it turned into cash, that is, bills and coins. That's hardly done anymore, most of the time it is directly deposited into the employee's account and, with the advent of automatic bill paying, often goes back out of the account into other accounts with minimal or no action required of the individual. Thus, in a sense, many people these days handle money very little, even more so when they use their plastic cards for almost all other transactions.

So, perhaps within the Federation all those exchanges of value/energy/whatever tend to occur without human intervention, with payment of things like bar tabs also seamlessly electronic (perhaps relying on biometric ID rather than a physical card), thus, Federation citizens "no longer need money". Those living or working on the border or outside the Federation probably have some means of converting their value/energy accounts to local currencies and are more familiar with a concept of money such as we or the Ferengi have.

It doesn't seem that any random Federation individual has access to infinite resources, but how resources are apportioned is never explained.

It is probably worth noting that when Captain Kirk tells the pretty marine biologist in The Voyage Home "we don't have money in the future" he's probably referring to carrying cash, not that there is no notion of payment or exchange of value. Back in 1986 payment for food by credit card in the US was certainly an option, but not typical in that level of restaurant and debit cards a very new thing. My mid-1980's self was still paying all my bills by check, still getting paid by a physical check I had to carry to the bank in person, and I tended to carry much more cash on my person than I do now. Looking from there to myself now I could see a puzzled frown and "What? You don't need money any more? It's all done electronically?". In The Voyage Home the Federation folks certainly have some understanding of money, otherwise they wouldn't have hocked Kirk's reading glasses, but they're not used to using it as a physical object.

In the original series there is mention from time to time of credits and currency, usually associated with a starbase as in "The Trouble With Tribbles" or some frontier location where, again, Federation "money" could be converted to local customary usage. The Next Generation is, as the name implies, the generation following which may be people with even less experience of money as a physical object or something you need to pay much attention to.

In this context, Sisko speaking of "transporter credits" starts to make sense. His "energy budget" or whatever unit of value is involved is limited and can only pay for so many transporter jaunts. If he was transporting from a location outside the Federation he probably would need some sort of currency but since he was within the Federation it's expressed differently.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:

Formless wrote:The TOS movies also make mention of credits, in spite of contradictory messages from TNG that they no longer use money.

I'm not sure if that is contradictory.

Quark has asked "cash or credit" before.

That's hardly odd. You can by a shitload of stuff "on credit" these days (sofas, TV's etc), you get it now and pay them later. Quark, being the shrewd businessman he is, would probably relish the opportunity to offer regular customers credit so he can charge interest.

It would, however, require for both a) some form of money and b) a cash option to exist, kinda reinforcing the idea that Picard's 'we no longer use money' speeches were...somewhat simplifying the existing financial arrangements?

Batman wrote:It would, however, require for both a) some form of money and b) a cash option to exist, kinda reinforcing the idea that Picard's 'we no longer use money' speeches were...somewhat simplifying the existing financial arrangements?

Well I think that's a given. Besides, we know there's a cash option, gold-pressed latinum, and we know that there is some form of Federation Credit. So Quark offers them the option to pay him back later if they don't have latinum but charges interest. I really don't see how this is complicated.

Wasn't Picard's "no money" thing from Generations? I honestly can't remember where it's from. I figure there's a good chance he's full of shit and just trying to make the Federation look enlightened to this dumb, backwards person from the past.

Edit: Er, First Contact

The 'we have no money in the future' thing goes all the way back to Kirk in TVH, though I've always assumed he meant they no longer had physical bills and coins and instead did all transactions electronically given that both TOS and the TOS movies do undeniably support the existence of some form of money at least as per the late 23rd century.

Its all over the place in the first two seasons of TNG. How much of a smug fucker do you have to be to write say this?

"[Picard:] A lot has changed in the past 300 years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We've grown out of our infancy."
(from "The Neutral Zone")

Gee, hunger I can understand. Need for possessions? Talk to me again when you throw out all those model starships you collect, Picard.

And yes, he says that to a bunch of stereotypical 21'st century humans who were cryogenically frozen. Its like Roddenberry wanted desperately to be a communist, but hadn't the slightest clue what actual Marxist thought on these subjects said. That is, nothing, because possessions aren't the same as financial institutions.

Memory Alpha has a convenient list of times credits have come up on the show. I would like to think the Federation wasn't lying through their teeth to the people with the wormhole about their ability to pay up.

They do have to have some form of currency or Crusher's comment in the pilot about charging the bolt of cloth to her account would make no sense.

We also see whenever someone is selling something to someone or another, they get their thumb scanned on a PADD. I could have sworn that O'brien, Sisko, or Bashir have done this at least once. Presumably it's the same as signing a receipt for a debit purchase, only without a card.

I can see money (digital or hard) having little use onboard Starfleet's starships and instead have some sort of rationing system. i.e. X amount of time per week on the holodeck. X amount of pounds of replicator material allocated for various use, etc. etc. Money is useless whereas time and resources has more value.

EDIT: This way, Starfleet officers and enlisted can be paid less as most of their expenses are taken care of and any money made can be used towards luxury items. Picard can still be correct saying that they are bettering themselves because money to those in Starfleet have little value.

I hope I made it clear. Really tired, need sleepies.

The thing that makes it nonsensical is, if I recall correctly, Kirk told Scotty at one point that he earned his pay over some awesome engineering feat. Why would Kirk talk about getting payed only to later say that the Fedearation did away with money?

Whenever people say they don't have money anymore they're either lying or pulling the "certain point of view" thing. It's about the only way to truly reconcile things without just shrugging and saying "That's what happens when people don't make sure and avoid retcons."

I would love to see a Star Trek series that focused on a group of privateers/independent traders. Since it seems that many people that frequent Quark's pay via gold-pressed latinum, I assumed that it was the chief currency *somewhere* nearby - either neighboring systems or Bajor itself. I mean, here you have a fledgling government who probably can't back their own currency/economy based upon governmental reputation alone - so perhaps they do have some sort of stockpile of latinum to back their currency/credit system.

Either way, the specific manner that O'Brien and other Federation members obtain latinum would also be interesting to see expanded upon. Perhaps the Federation has a list of "approved tech" or partners that they trade with, using 3rd parties, specifically to acquire outside currencies for trade, (while doing so in away that includes plausible deniability so they can maintain their claims of having moved beyond that)