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As many of us know, the Maquis were wiped out by the
Dominion during the Dominion war on DS9, but all we
acutally ever saw was some pretty propaganda footage
of Jem'Hadar ships bombarding and blowing up some
buildings.

My opinion is that the Dominion wasted the idiots of the
Maquis movement, the ones who had become too public
and too vocal in their help against the Dominion, as well
as those who neglected operational security, allowing the
Dominion to find their bases.

Meanwhile, the REAL Maquis movement simply scattered
underground after the Dominion attack on the idiots in the
movement.

What d'you think of my theory?

I really like it, Mark, but think what B&B could make of it in case they once in the future think of the Maquis.

Btw, I still hope for some break-up of the Federation in the future (hopefully when someone competant gets his hands on the franchise)...

Don't forget the Maquis on Voyager. I wonder what happened to them.

Yet another plotline thrown/pissed away by B&B *sigh*

The Cardassians couldn't wipe out the Maquis using standard low-intensity counterinsurgency operations. Of course, the Cardassians were also incapable of maintaining control of a subjugated planet even though they should logically have had uncontested aerospace superiority (which they somehow managed not to have).

The Dominion, on the other hand, obviously had no problems. A Vorta would certainly have had no qualms about taking any steps necessary to take care of the Maquis problem once war broke out.

A simple solution would be comprehensive implementation of the Sisko option. That is, simply dump appropriate substances harmful to humans into the atmospheres of suspect class M planets within the Badlands/Maquis territory, with initial emphasis on colony or refugee worlds.

Start with one planet, a major colony world. A blockade force of several dozen Jem'hadar attack ships is placed in the system, with one or more battle cruisers hidden in the system as an ambush force. Then put about a dozen more attack ships on roving Badlands patrol in pairs or trios, with orders to strike any and all targets of opportunity.

The poison is dumped into the planet's atmosphere and a call for aid goes out from the people on the planet, since the population will begin dying off within a specified period of time. The roving patrols could further add to the pressure by raiding other known colonies and taking a few dozen people per colony to the target system, where the people are then beamed down to provide further incentive. Any ships/shuttles attempting to escape are disabled or destroyed.

The Maquis now have two choices: let the colonists die and prove the impotence of the Maquis (not to mention likely abandoning many of their own family members), or attempt a rescue and go out in a blaze of glory. If a massed Maquis fleet goes in, it will be caught between the anvil of several attack ship squadrons blockading the planet and the hammer of battle cruisers and possible further attack ships. Without access to major capital ships the Maquis are toast.

After that, aggressive patrolling to interdict further Federation and Maquis movements through the Badlands should be adequate if combined with standard intelligence/counterinsrugency operations (like photon torpedoes dropped into the town squares of colonies).

Patrick Ogaard wrote: After that, aggressive patrolling to interdict further Federation and Maquis movements through the Badlands should be adequate if combined with standard intelligence/counterinsrugency operations (like photon torpedoes dropped into the town squares of colonies).

Thing is, the Badlands would provide a hell of a place to hide, much
as the Prypriat Marshes did for the Partisans in Russia during WWII
against the Germans.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:The Cardassians couldn't wipe out the Maquis using standard low-intensity counterinsurgency operations. Of course, the Cardassians were also incapable of maintaining control of a subjugated planet even though they should logically have had uncontested aerospace superiority (which they somehow managed not to have).

The Dominion, on the other hand, obviously had no problems. A Vorta would certainly have had no qualms about taking any steps necessary to take care of the Maquis problem once war broke out.

A simple solution would be comprehensive implementation of the Sisko option. That is, simply dump appropriate substances harmful to humans into the atmospheres of suspect class M planets within the Badlands/Maquis territory, with initial emphasis on colony or refugee worlds.

Start with one planet, a major colony world. A blockade force of several dozen Jem'hadar attack ships is placed in the system, with one or more battle cruisers hidden in the system as an ambush force. Then put about a dozen more attack ships on roving Badlands patrol in pairs or trios, with orders to strike any and all targets of opportunity.

The poison is dumped into the planet's atmosphere and a call for aid goes out from the people on the planet, since the population will begin dying off within a specified period of time. The roving patrols could further add to the pressure by raiding other known colonies and taking a few dozen people per colony to the target system, where the people are then beamed down to provide further incentive. Any ships/shuttles attempting to escape are disabled or destroyed.

The Maquis now have two choices: let the colonists die and prove the impotence of the Maquis (not to mention likely abandoning many of their own family members), or attempt a rescue and go out in a blaze of glory. If a massed Maquis fleet goes in, it will be caught between the anvil of several attack ship squadrons blockading the planet and the hammer of battle cruisers and possible further attack ships. Without access to major capital ships the Maquis are toast.

After that, aggressive patrolling to interdict further Federation and Maquis movements through the Badlands should be adequate if combined with standard intelligence/counterinsrugency operations (like photon torpedoes dropped into the town squares of colonies).

Dammit, you've given me an idea for a fanfic, lol. Can I use this "Sisco option?"

Why is it called the "Sisko Option?"

Uhm, I thought that was self-explanatory...

Aya wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:The Cardassians couldn't wipe out the Maquis using standard low-intensity counterinsurgency operations. Of course, the Cardassians were also incapable of maintaining control of a subjugated planet even though they should logically have had uncontested aerospace superiority (which they somehow managed not to have).

The Dominion, on the other hand, obviously had no problems. A Vorta would certainly have had no qualms about taking any steps necessary to take care of the Maquis problem once war broke out.

A simple solution would be comprehensive implementation of the Sisko option. That is, simply dump appropriate substances harmful to humans into the atmospheres of suspect class M planets within the Badlands/Maquis territory, with initial emphasis on colony or refugee worlds.

Start with one planet, a major colony world. A blockade force of several dozen Jem'hadar attack ships is placed in the system, with one or more battle cruisers hidden in the system as an ambush force. Then put about a dozen more attack ships on roving Badlands patrol in pairs or trios, with orders to strike any and all targets of opportunity.

The poison is dumped into the planet's atmosphere and a call for aid goes out from the people on the planet, since the population will begin dying off within a specified period of time. The roving patrols could further add to the pressure by raiding other known colonies and taking a few dozen people per colony to the target system, where the people are then beamed down to provide further incentive. Any ships/shuttles attempting to escape are disabled or destroyed.

The Maquis now have two choices: let the colonists die and prove the impotence of the Maquis (not to mention likely abandoning many of their own family members), or attempt a rescue and go out in a blaze of glory. If a massed Maquis fleet goes in, it will be caught between the anvil of several attack ship squadrons blockading the planet and the hammer of battle cruisers and possible further attack ships. Without access to major capital ships the Maquis are toast.

After that, aggressive patrolling to interdict further Federation and Maquis movements through the Badlands should be adequate if combined with standard intelligence/counterinsrugency operations (like photon torpedoes dropped into the town squares of colonies).

Dammit, you've given me an idea for a fanfic, lol. Can I use this "Sisco option?"

Absolutely!

paladin wrote:Why is it called the "Sisko Option?"

In the DS9 episode "For the Uniform" Sisko finally manages to bring his nemesis Michael Eddington to heel. Eddington had used Cardassian-specific biogenic weapons to drive Cardies off worlds in the DMZ. Ultimately, Sisko responded by rendering a Maquis world uninhabitable. He launched a couple of torpedoes loaded with trilithium resin into the atmosphere of the planet, and almost immediately the locals began their evacuation to avoid a slow, lingering death. The world was rendered uninhabitable for humans for decades. Eddington surrendered once he realized that Sisko was quite prepared to exercise that option of biosphere contamination a second time.

Trilithium resin contamination of the atmosphere is harmless to Cardassians, and trilithium resin is a waste product of Federation-style warp drives which the Cardassian/Dominion forces also appear to use. Cardassian forces could use or provide masses of such weapons to the other Dominion forces.

The real question is why, operating within SoD, the Dominion did not think to use such weapons on Earth. How would the Federation have dealt with the homeworld of the Federation's humans, the very Federation capital and home of the major instituations of Starfleet, being rendered unfit for human habitation? There would have been no way to evacuate several billion humans, and thus the Breen/Dominion forces would have managed an incredible decapitation strike instead of just blowing a few holes in Starfleet HQ.

Patrick Ogaard wrote: In the DS9 episode "For the Uniform" Sisko finally manages to bring his nemesis Michael Eddington to heel. Eddington had used Cardassian-specific biogenic weapons to drive Cardies off worlds in the DMZ. Ultimately, Sisko responded by rendering a Maquis world uninhabitable. He launched a couple of torpedoes loaded with trilithium resin into the atmosphere of the planet, and almost immediately the locals began their evacuation to avoid a slow, lingering death. The world was rendered uninhabitable for humans for decades. Eddington surrendered once he realized that Sisko was quite prepared to exercise that option of biosphere contamination a second time.

Eddington was a fool. If Trilithium resin is so easy to obtain, why didn't the
maquis make their own Trilithium bombs and hold feddie worlds hostage?

Damn B&B

MKSheppard wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote: In the DS9 episode "For the Uniform" Sisko finally manages to bring his nemesis Michael Eddington to heel. Eddington had used Cardassian-specific biogenic weapons to drive Cardies off worlds in the DMZ. Ultimately, Sisko responded by rendering a Maquis world uninhabitable. He launched a couple of torpedoes loaded with trilithium resin into the atmosphere of the planet, and almost immediately the locals began their evacuation to avoid a slow, lingering death. The world was rendered uninhabitable for humans for decades. Eddington surrendered once he realized that Sisko was quite prepared to exercise that option of biosphere contamination a second time.

Eddington was a fool. If Trilithium resin is so easy to obtain, why didn't the
maquis make their own Trilithium bombs and hold feddie worlds hostage?

Damn B&B

For one thing, doing that would have been immoral in a way that would likely have been unapalatable to the predominantly human-derived Maquis/colonists.

Another matter is that trilithium resin is extremely touchy stuff, and an extremely powerful explosive. Also, it apparently -- at least as far as I can deduce -- requires several years for a large warp core like that of a Galaxy-class starship to generate useful quantities. That means that only a major organization with access to the waste products of lots of large warp cores and the knowledge of how to reliably produce the necessary stabilization systems can effectively use the stuff in any quantities. In effect, it could be likened to weapons grade plutonium in the real world in terms of the difficulty of obtaining it.

That is, immoral/unethical acts applied to a hated enemy are one thing. Those same acts applied to perceived innocents and/or one's family or former family are an entirely different matter.

MKSheppard wrote: Meanwhile, the REAL Maquis movement simply scattered
underground after the Dominion attack on the idiots in the
movement.

What d'you think of my theory?

Bro,

I think it's not a bad idea, but we have more than "Dominion propaganda" concerning the Maquis' fate. In VGR, probably "Message in a Bottle" or thereabouts, we learn the Maquis had been slaughtered--the information coming of course from Starfleet, who should see through Dominion bullshit.

Eddington and company were also supposedly some of the few Maquis the Jem'Hadar hadn't run down and killed, but they took him out too.

The Maquis were pretty much flattened...I don't think there was really any underground for them to blend into after the Jem'Hadar started purging Cardassian territory of all non-Dominion members.

Patrick Ogaard wrote: The real question is why, operating within SoD, the Dominion did not think to use such weapons on Earth.

That's a good question. Or why, at least, they didn't simply try to send a huge fleet to Earth or Vulcan and bombard it from space? Fairly early in the war, when they were still winning rather decisively, this might've been an option.

I think some of it might be due to the Cardassian's say in things.
They're often characterized as cold-blooded, but there's little justification for that generalization...Setlik III, for instance, was supposedly them massacring civilians just for fun, but they actually had intelligence that told them Setlik was a military target.

Anyway, I think the Cardassians have certain rules of conduct in warfare. We know, for instance, that they have gigaton-ranged drone missiles they could have easily launched against Federation interests, but they never did. They probably have a similar rule about wiping out an enemy capitol's population (note: that obviously does not include Obsidian Order operations), or maybe rules about orbital bombardment in general.

There's probably no actual proof to this end, only observation that planets like Betazed are conquered rather than NDFed to hell by star fleets and that what must constitute WOMADs, like Dreadnought missiles, are not used. Nor are their biogenic weapons.

Also of potential interest is an exchange from "Sacrifice of Angels." Weyoun and Dukat are talking in Dukat's office. Weyoun says something to the effect that, "Once we conquer the Federation, our first step should be to eradicate Earth's population since the birthplace of a resistance movement would be there."

Dukat says, "You can't do that." Weyoun wonders why, and Dukat tells him, "Because blah blah to truly win a war blah blah, you must show your enemy that they were wrong to oppose you in the first place."

I doubt that idea is unique to Dukat. And though he/the Cardassians were definite subordinates in the Dominion hiearchy, even early in the war, the guy had some say in what was going on. He was the guy that came up with the whole plan to assemble the huge fleet in "SoA" to entrap the Federation fleet. If the Cardassians objected to massive orbital bombardments, the Dominion might've let that one slide just to appease the Cardies a little. (Again, especially early in the war, this kind of cooperation and compromise seems likely...the Dominion probably kissed the Cardassians before they royally fucked them. It would've been to the Dominion's advantage to give the Cardassians a false sense of security with their autonomy, with the spirit of the alliance. By the time the Cards understood they were being increasingly stripped of more and more say in things, it'd be too late for them to do much about it; Dominion control would be absolute.)

Hardly iron-clad, I know, but we know the ability to kick ass in orbital assaults is there. That it's not used against targets the Dominion can reach (Betazed) requires something like Cardie rules of engagement. I doubt the Dominion really has such things...the way they killed almost a billion Cardassians is some proof of that.

I think the Dominion didn't start destroying populations on a planetary scales simply because they wanted slaves and also because the Klingons/Romulans would have responded in kind (although the Federation probably wouldn't have, then again earth is rather important to them) what the Dominion would have ended up with is a wasteland AQ and parts of the GQ also wasted.

Are the DS9 Relaunch series canon? Ro Laren is in that series, which might mean that a few Maquis still survived (though likely very few).

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Are the DS9 Relaunch series canon? Ro Laren is in that series, which might mean that a few Maquis still survived (though likely very few).

None of the Star Trek novels are canon. Not all are disregarded but this series I really like but all of them; none of them matter.

MKSheppard wrote:As many of us know, the Maquis were wiped out by the
Dominion during the Dominion war on DS9, but all we
acutally ever saw was some pretty propaganda footage
of Jem'Hadar ships bombarding and blowing up some
buildings.

My opinion is that the Dominion wasted the idiots of the
Maquis movement, the ones who had become too public
and too vocal in their help against the Dominion, as well
as those who neglected operational security, allowing the
Dominion to find their bases.

Meanwhile, the REAL Maquis movement simply scattered
underground after the Dominion attack on the idiots in the
movement.

What d'you think of my theory?

The likelihood a resistance movement with litterally hundreads of light years to hide in was destroyed in a few months is insane.

Hmmm...I have an idea for a fic after Rays...

How does "The Confederacy of Outyling Worlds" sound?

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: The likelihood a resistance movement with litterally hundreads of light years to hide in was destroyed in a few months is insane.

You would certainly think so, but by all indications they were toast before the Dominion War started. Perhaps they did something foolish with most of their resources when they realized the Jem'Hadar were coming for them...tried to make a big stand instead of hiding as they had been.

seanrobertson wrote:

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote: The likelihood a resistance movement with litterally hundreads of light years to hide in was destroyed in a few months is insane.

You would certainly think so, but by all indications they were toast before the Dominion War started. Perhaps they did something foolish with most of their resources when they realized the Jem'Hadar were coming for them...tried to make a big stand instead of hiding as they had been.

Actually, it's not really that hard to imagine how the Maquis could have been turned into mango chutney.

Point 1) The Maquis were recruited primarily from disaffected Federation colonists turned Cardassian subjects in the DMZ. This means that the majority would have had ties of family and friendship with the colonists and obviously used the colonies themselves as resupply, rest and recreation areas. Renegade Starfleet officers were obviously a minority in all Maquis groups encountered.

Point 2) The colonists and the Maquis obviously did not have access to major starlift capacities, and the assorted small warp shuttles, couriers and freighters the colonists did have would have been toast if engaged by a squadron of attack ships. The Maquis themselves did not apparently possess any major combat vessels beyond the larger type of raider as used by Chakotay's crew in the Voyager pilot.

Point 3) Worlds can be rendered uninhabitable for humans over periods of decades without degrading their usefulness to Cardassians.

Given all of this, a simple campaign of selective eradication of troublesome colonies would inevitably have led large portions of the Maquis to commit to hopeless battles to save their friends and families. Coupled with the wholesale torture of the populations of smaller colonies in order to extract the necessary information on other Maquis, that should have been quite enough to wipe out all but a small percentage of the Maquis.

Many of the unapprehended Maquis would have had to have been known to the Cardassian authorities at least by name and/or home colony. Any colony known to harbor troublesome Maquis, or to be a haven for fugitives, is simply wiped off the face of the planet. Without the need for restraint, the Dominion forces could have taken any measures they deemed most expedient or effective. Ultimately, no rebel or resistance force can stand for any appreciable length of time if the enemy possesses overwhelming military superiority, is bent on wholesale extermination, and has the tools necessary to carry out that extermination without regard for civilian casualties.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:The colonists and the Maquis obviously did not have access to major starlift capacities, and the assorted small warp shuttles, couriers and freighters the colonists did have would have been toast if engaged by a squadron of attack ships. The Maquis themselves did not apparently possess any major combat vessels beyond the larger type of raider as used by Chakotay's crew in the Voyager pilot.

This is the most salient point; they were critically short on resources. The Cardassians could not wipe them out for fear of a hostile response from the Federation which tolerated abuse but not genocide, while the Dominion had no such qualms. There was never a tactical limitation.

If the Maquis mostly survived except for a few decoys and overly aggressive units, it would have been news to Eddington, whose loved ones were captured and who hatched a convoluted scheme to save them.

The trilithium resin that is so toxic would be rendered useless by...a RESIN VACCINE! just like radiation!