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The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-07 03:15pm
by darth_timon
Voyager tends to have a bad reputation. It's rounded on for samey plots and annoying characters. It is, along with Enterprise, Star Trek's irritating cousin, that relative that latches on to the family's reputation and bugs everyone else.

Yet despite this, Voyager has produced some very good episodes. The Doctor also proved to be a great character, who redeemed the show to a point.

But to begin, I dare say one of Voyager's finest episodes is also a Neelix episode. Yup, you heard me correctly, a Neelix episode.

The Season One 'Jetrel' gave Ethan Philips a meaty script that didn't delve into the more annoying sides of the character. Instead, we got a glimpse into a dark and painful past, with the strong theme of reconciliation vs holding on to hate and pain. It's impossible not to feel sympathy for Neelix, and the scientist who designed the weapon that destroyed Talaxia's moon also manages to come across as a sympathetic figure, as he tries desperately to atone for his past.

Season Two's 'Death Wish' gives us a better look at the Q Continuum and of course, allowed John De Lance to return to our screens, which is always fun to watch. Season Three's 'The Chute' was also quite a good episode that allowed Harry Kim and Tom Paris to shine.

Perhaps though, Season Two's 'The Thaw' deserves the most credit. Poor Harry Kim is put the wringer as a simulated manifestation of Fear himself torments Kim and the other poor souls tied to the simulation, before finally, at the end, a simulated Janeway turns the tables and has Fear himself trembling.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-07 03:42pm
by Borgholio
Meh, it's hard for me to single out the really good episodes from all the filth that was the rest of the series. I agree there were some good ones in there, particularly the ones that focused on the characters we don't normally see in-depth, such as the Doctor or Kim. But honestly, I can't think of any in particular that stood out.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-07 04:54pm
by StarSword
I only ever actually watched season one, but I've always liked "Prime Factors" for putting the Prime Directive shoe on the other foot and showing what a bunch of dicks you look like to the folks you're refusing to help because of your so-called "noble principles".

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-09 06:31am
by Prometheus Unbound
Jetrel was stupid imo. Chuck's review covers my thoughts on the matter.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-09 07:23pm
by JME2
One of my favorites from the entire run is "Lineage" for its character work.

The revelations of B'Elanna's childhood -- and that she blamed herself and her Klingon heritage for ending her parents' marriage -- finally explained a lot about her character: The root of her self-loathing, her anger issues, and her inability to form close relationships.

It also kinda resonates with me since I blamed myself at one point for my parents' divorce (it took me a while to accept it wasn't).

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-09 08:05pm
by Batman
'There's coffee in that nebula!' and the Batmobile armour from Endgame (which was otherwise a pretty terrible closure to an at best mediocre series) and that's it. You should know you're doing something wrong when your only consistently interesting character is a hologram.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-09 11:13pm
by JME2
Let me throw in two more:

"State of Flux": Probably my favorite Season 1 episode. It's a relatively decent Whodunnit and one of the better twists of the TNG-era. I just wish Seska's character hadn't gone off the rails from hereon out because she her arguments were valid.

"Think Thank": Great concept for a villain and Jason Alexander was superb as Kurros. It's too bad this was their only appearance because I think they'd have worked well as recurring baddies.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 02:17am
by PREDATOR490
I was always fond of Scorpion because it had an awesome intro that was leaps ahead of most brain numbing teaser shit you usually got for episodes. Bad ass Borg finally showing up as it was hinted at earlier in the season and its the season cliffhanger so you know its going to be a big wind up. Oh shit two Borg cubes just got one-shotted and... credits.

Chakotay finally grows a pair and has a fully legitimate argument against Janeway sticking her nose into a fight without any concern for the consequences. Its just a shame that Voyager did not use this as a chance to set up a real story arc rather than stick to the bullshit episodic format. Turns out the race that can kick the Borg's teeth in have the worst case of a glass jaw that it only takes a torpedo from Janeway to make them call off an intergalactic invasion.

Not to mention my own personal annoyance with the fact the implication of S8472's conflict made Janeway a complete fucking lunatic for making an alliance with the Borg. S8472 have the ability to cross dimensions seemingly at will and the ONLY weapon to fight them exists on Voyager. As a representative of Starfleet... its probably not a good idea to go pissing off a power that could feasibly nuke the living shit out of the Federation by the time Voyager got home from the Delta Quadrant and the Feds would have no idea what the hell they were being killed for.
However, the battle scenes are pretty good and the Borg are reasonably menacing if you ignore the 'they cant understand what they dont assimilate' bullshit.

In the same vein.

Year of Hell - Again, great two parter which gets pissed away with the mashing of the reset button.

Most of Voyager's two - parter episodes were decent but like most series they spend the first half building up the cliff-hanger then the next episode is spend undoing everything so they can return to the status quo. Voyager managed to do it in a far more offensive "fuck you" method in their attitude. Hey, we can have a story arc about a holodeck village but a war arc about going through Borg space or a gradual wearing down of the ship that even Enterprise tried to do... hell no.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 08:25am
by StarSword
PREDATOR490 wrote:Chakotay finally grows a pair and has a fully legitimate argument against Janeway sticking her nose into a fight without any concern for the consequences. Its just a shame that Voyager did not use this as a chance to set up a real story arc rather than stick to the bullshit episodic format. Turns out the race that can kick the Borg's teeth in have the worst case of a glass jaw that it only takes a torpedo from Janeway to make them call off an intergalactic invasion.

Not to mention my own personal annoyance with the fact the implication of S8472's conflict made Janeway a complete fucking lunatic for making an alliance with the Borg. S8472 have the ability to cross dimensions seemingly at will and the ONLY weapon to fight them exists on Voyager. As a representative of Starfleet... its probably not a good idea to go pissing off a power that could feasibly nuke the living shit out of the Federation by the time Voyager got home from the Delta Quadrant and the Feds would have no idea what the hell they were being killed for.
Not just "complete fucking lunatic", but criminal, actually. What Janeway did in "Scorpion" is called "aiding the enemy", something that the US military shoots you for. Instead of arguing with her, Chakotay should've relieved her of command right then and there, by force if need be.

"Scorpion" should have had Janeway pointing-and-laughing at the Collective's self-inflicted troubles and asking for 8472's phone number.

Oh, and thanks a fucking bunch, Nemesis, for showing us that Starfleet either has no problem with aiding the enemy of every thinking creature in the galaxy as long as it's done by our wonderful protagonists who can do no wrong, or that Janeway et al. covered it up. That episode more than any other is why I ended up buying into Chuck's psycho Janeway theory.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 08:59am
by JME2
Yeah, I always thought Kate Mulgrew was on to something when she stated her belief that Janeway was bipolar.

That goes in tandem with Chuck's theory.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 01:31pm
by FaxModem1
I always connected with Torres, and for this list, I bring the Torres hates herself trilogy.

First, we have Day of Honor, where Torres has a really bad day, culminating in which due to an accident, Voyager loses its warp core. The subplot of Seven learning to contribute to the crew is a nice one, but the focus is on why Torres is so hostile to others. Inside, she's afraid of letting people in, as shecould get hurt.but she starts to change that with Tom. The two remained a couple for the rest of the show.

Next is Extreme Risk, in which Voyager has a space race with a Malon freighter, and we getthe debut of the Delta Flyer. The main plot, however, is Torress going through a state of depression and apathy, as we learn that she's hurting herself to feel something, and is that way because the death of the Maquis is just the latest in the long list of people she's lost through death, them leaving, or her being kicked out. Eventually, Chakotay is able to wake her up, and she gets back on the path of being better, and more importantly, trying to live.

The final one is Lineage, as mentioned above. We find the root of all this, her fears stem from her father leaving them at a young age, and her irrational fear that Tom will do the same with a partly Klingon daughter.

I rewatched all three of these together recently, and it gives a nice arc to the character.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 01:37pm
by JME2
I did like how Tom and B'Elanna mellowed and matured (to some extent) over the seven seasons. Not as drastic a development as Bashir, but decent for VOY.

And yeah, his realization that B'Elanna was really afraid he was going to follow in her father's footsteps and leave his Klingon wife and daughter was heartbreaking.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 07:13pm
by Eternal_Freedom
I have a soft spot for Message in a Bottle, Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy and Bride of Chaotica. The first two because, well, Robert Picardo is awesome and he really got to shine. The last one because it's just unashamed silly sci fi fun.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 10:02pm
by JME2
"Tinker, Tenor" is among the funniest episodes of the entire franchise thanks to the "Pon Farr" song and the parody of the Mary Sue archetype.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-10 11:48pm
by FaxModem1
Another one for the list is "Mortal Coil", the one where Neelix dies. Insert joke about how that already makes it a classic, here. What makes it work is that Seven is able to Frankenstein Neelix, and Neelix faces a existential crisis, culminating with his dream of his dead sister telling him that life is meaningless, there is no afterlife, and you just stop existing after death. This all leads to Neelix trying to kill himself, but Chakotay(boy, this guy sure gets around stopping self-destructive behavior, doesn't he?) is able to talk him down and help him realize that he does have people here who need him, and that his life isn't pointless.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-11 07:09am
by Metahive
StarSword wrote: Not just "complete fucking lunatic", but criminal, actually. What Janeway did in "Scorpion" is called "aiding the enemy", something that the US military shoots you for. Instead of arguing with her, Chakotay should've relieved her of command right then and there, by force if need be.

"Scorpion" should have had Janeway pointing-and-laughing at the Collective's self-inflicted troubles and asking for 8472's phone number.
I know that's a popular talking point of Janeway bashers (hell, I don't like her myself), but frankly, that's BS. The Undine (I prefer this to the awkward Borg numbering, thank you very much STO) threatend omnicide on the Milky Way galaxy. In their own words, they had come to purge it of everything weak, not just the Borg which they proved when they attacked Voyager unprovoked. What exactly were Voyager's options here? Run away and hunker down like Chakotey proposed? That would have just postponed their destruction for a while, the Undine would have come after them eventually as they promised. THE WEAK SHALL PERISH!

No, teaming up with the Borg was not the major crime of Janeway. Later giving the codes of the modified nanoprobes to the Undine without getting anything tangible in return, that was unforgivable. Good thing consistent characterisation isn't one of Voyager's strengths, huh? Otherwise the Undine would have taken this flagrant display of stupidity as justification and incentive to renew their omnicidal crusade.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-12 08:02am
by PREDATOR490
Metahive wrote:
StarSword wrote: Not just "complete fucking lunatic", but criminal, actually. What Janeway did in "Scorpion" is called "aiding the enemy", something that the US military shoots you for. Instead of arguing with her, Chakotay should've relieved her of command right then and there, by force if need be.

"Scorpion" should have had Janeway pointing-and-laughing at the Collective's self-inflicted troubles and asking for 8472's phone number.
I know that's a popular talking point of Janeway bashers (hell, I don't like her myself), but frankly, that's BS. The Undine (I prefer this to the awkward Borg numbering, thank you very much STO) threatend omnicide on the Milky Way galaxy. In their own words, they had come to purge it of everything weak, not just the Borg which they proved when they attacked Voyager unprovoked. What exactly were Voyager's options here? Run away and hunker down like Chakotey proposed? That would have just postponed their destruction for a while, the Undine would have come after them eventually as they promised. THE WEAK SHALL PERISH!

No, teaming up with the Borg was not the major crime of Janeway. Later giving the codes of the modified nanoprobes to the Undine without getting anything tangible in return, that was unforgivable. Good thing consistent characterisation isn't one of Voyager's strengths, huh? Otherwise the Undine would have taken this flagrant display of stupidity as justification and incentive to renew their omnicidal crusade.
The omnicidal crusade bullshit was a paper thin excuse Janeway used to justify her already-determined intention to find a way to get through Borg space regardless of what it took. It does not get any more clearer than siding with an enemy and providing them with biological weapons because ONE Bioship took a pot shot at you while you were pissing around in a combat zone.

Even if you take Kes at her complete unverified word-for-thought exchange it is an extremely shaky premise to base 'siding with the devil' on the actions of a single encounter with an unknown race. Voyager flew directly into a post-battle warzone and got shot at. This is hardly surprising and Kes only has some sort of unverified communication with a single pilot with her magic powers. Janeway makes no attempt to contact the Undine or get their side of the story because her agenda is to justify getting through Borg Space. THAT is a criminal case of stupidity and failure at command.

Based on the entire observed behaviour of the Undine. They were going for a full genocide of the Borg after being provoked. Something which even the pacifist Federation was prepared to do. No evidence exists they attacked anyone else beyond Kes's word.

Janeway had a duty to find out more about the situation before sticking her nose into a conflict she had limited information from. This is later confirmed when Chakotay figures out the Borg started the fight and later still when the Undine turn out to be less of a two dimensional race.
Chakotay's position was entirely correct in the idea of waiting to see what happens.

Even if the Undine were 100% genuine in their intention to exterminate all life in the galaxy - By getting involved Janeway is starting a war on behalf of the Federation on the premise of Kes having a fit. That kind of decision should not be made on that premise or via a conversation with a holodeck character. Even more stupid when the observed capabilities of the Undine would make interfering to 'save the Federation' self defeating.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-12 09:38am
by Metahive
You can't just handwave the telepathic communiques away that Kes received. There's nothing in that episode that suggests that Kes is mistaken or lying. The Undine repeatedly contact her and make clear that the Borg are only the beginning and that they will purge the rest of the Milky Way galaxy as well, so it was either allying with the Borg or dying. Also, the Undine shot first at Voyager so they had already made clear they were not going to be picky about their targets. That you somehow think that doesn't seal the deal is just you hatred of Janeway clouding your judgement. They were enemies, period.

If you insist that Kes was mistaken I want hard evidence for that. I don't want hadnwaves and bashing of the character. If she was wrong about the Undine's intentions, prove it. Prove that the Borg were the sole target of the Undine and that they would have left peacefully after annihilating them.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-12 01:28pm
by FaxModem1
Getting this back on topic, I'm going to nominate "11:59". It's an episode of Voyager that deals with two things, confronting one's belief in history with reality, as Janeway has to do when she discovers her ancestor isn't actually a famed pioneer who fought for the side of progress making this huge leap for humanity, but is just some person who became a consultant for a company in the project, and never accomplished much.

The other plot, of course, is her identical ancestor Shannon O'Donnell and Henry Janeway meet, fall in love, but have to learn to compromise on their priorities and that they can work together.

It's a rather odd episode, as the crux of the main plot takes place in the year 2000, and not with our crew, but it works, as it's about family history, and whether the legend is more important than fact.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-12 01:32pm
by JME2
Yeah, it's a nice spiritual counterpart to DS9's "Once More Unto the Breach", which had aired several months earlier.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-12 04:18pm
by StarSword
Are we sure the Undine can even tell the difference between the Borg and normal humanoids? They live in another plane of existence (for lack of a better term) and are decidedly not humanoid. I'd be more inclined to believe they went omnicidal maniac (which, again, we have Kes's word and only Kes's word for, characters anything but infallible, and Kes didn't exactly have full control of her abilities) because they honestly didn't know there were more than just Borg out there.

They encountered exactly one Undine and Janeway based her entire decision on that one encounter. And that one Undine had been left alone on a derelict cube and lashed out, a completely normal response.
PREDATOR490 wrote:Janeway had a duty to find out more about the situation before sticking her nose into a conflict she had limited information from. This is later confirmed when Chakotay figures out the Borg started the fight and later still when the Undine turn out to be less of a two dimensional race.
Chakotay's position was entirely correct in the idea of waiting to see what happens.
They shouldn't have even needed Chakotay to actually figure it out. Anybody with two neurons to rub together could have guessed that the Borg started it, because they're the frakking Borg. Their entire raison d'etre sets them at odds with every thinking creature in the galaxy.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-14 02:46am
by Prometheus Unbound
StarSword wrote: They encountered exactly one Undine and Janeway based her entire decision on that one encounter. And that one Undine had been left alone on a derelict cube and lashed out, a completely normal response.
Um... that one Undine had also piled up a load of bodies and decapitated them in some bizzare murder/ritual thing. It had gone full preying mantis on them...

Before Janeway gave them the tech, the Borg also had a planet blown up, nearly taking Voyager with them.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-14 04:09am
by FaxModem1
Can we get a separate thread for this? This is really dragging down the discussion of 'best of' episodes.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-15 06:04am
by Prometheus Unbound
Fair enough.

Re: The Best of Trek- Voyager

Posted: 2014-03-16 08:19am
by FaxModem1
I nominate a lot of the Hirogen arc, from 'Message in a Bottle', 'Hunter' and 'Prey', each one with a focus and more revelations on who exactly the Hirogen are, as well as reestablishing contact with the Alpha Quadrant, the revelation of the Maquis death and Starfleet finding out that Voyager survived.

Hunter shows just exactly how creepy and different the Hirogen are, with their Predator like trophies and living for the hunt.

And then finally, 'Prey', where we see S8472/Undine being hunted by Hirogen, while in the side plot Seven vs Janeway on how to treat the prisoner and the quality of mercy.

And then they end the whole arc on the blockbuster 'The Killing Game', with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in. You got Nazis, World War II, aliens, explosions, Klingons, and the French Resistance all going against each other over the holodeck. A truly epic way to end the aliens we met in Message in a Bottle.