StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I'm currently watching a rerun of StarTrek: DeepSpace9 and the most recent episode has been "Hypocratic Oath" (see http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hippocr ... episode%29).

In this episode O'Brian and Bashir get captured by a group of Jem'Hadar, who try to get free from their addiction to Ketracel-White. Bashir as (the idealistic) doctor wants to help them, while O'Brian is against it. His argument - aside from the Jem'Hadar being the enemy and that they would probably kill them, even if Bashir succeeds in finding a cure - is, that freeing the Jem'Hadar from their addiciton would be unleashing a bunch of killers on the galaxy, while while they are addicted the Dominion keeps them under control.

So question is, which one of the two was in the right (especially in light of the claimed Federation-values of freedom and self-determination)?

not enough data to really say either way, do we know that jem'hadar are gonna go berserk and wonder killing everything in sight if free from additiction or just the additiction that's causing them to be hyper violent.

While they are addicted the Dominion can use them to further its aggression. If freed from the dependency they can choose whether to follow the Founders' orders. What would probably happen is schisms, with conflict amongst the Jem'Hadar, and some even choosing to fight on behalf of the Federation, or as mercenaries. They aren't particularly dangerous because as ground troops they are only marginally better than Feds, and their access to ships is probably controlled by the Dominion., so they won't be unleashed anywhere in significant numbers.

In 'To the Death' a regiment of Jem'Hadar who have seized their own supply of white and an Iconian portal were expected to convince the entire Dominion into open revolt and to have seized power within a year.

Other than these specific Jem'Hadar though every single one of them we meet is fanatically loyal to the founders without reference to the drug at all and it seemed the drug was more to keep the Vorta in control than the founders themselves.

If the behaviour seen in 'To the Death' is relatively common then I'd expect a bloody civil war and the ultimate destruction of much of the Dominion as the Jem'Hadar seem to lack the technical expertise to keep any organisation running, they would enjoy invading whoever they can but would lack the infrastructure or command and control to maintain any forces for long. Similarly even if absolute loyalty to the founders prevents widespread rebellion I'd imagine lots of Vorta are going to end up killed by their own troops which is again going to
cripple organisation and industrial output of the Dominion.

Lord Revan wrote:not enough data to really say either way, do we know that jem'hadar are gonna go berserk and wonder killing everything in sight if free from additiction or just the additiction that's causing them to be hyper violent.

Well, the point is to make a decision with not enough data available. Are we the idealistic Dr. Bashir and take a chance by giving a race of slave-soldiers their freedom (and deny the Dominion its military arm by doing so) or are we the battle-hardened, jaded and pragmatic O'Brian, who is unwilling to take a risk?

FTeik wrote:I'm currently watching a rerun of StarTrek: DeepSpace9 and the most recent episode has been "Hypocratic Oath" (see http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hippocr ... episode%29).

In this episode O'Brian and Bashir get captured by a group of Jem'Hadar, who try to get free from their addiction to Ketracel-White. Bashir as (the idealistic) doctor wants to help them, while O'Brian is against it. His argument - aside from the Jem'Hadar being the enemy and that they would probably kill them, even if Bashir succeeds in finding a cure - is, that freeing the Jem'Hadar from their addiciton would be unleashing a bunch of killers on the galaxy, while while they are addicted the Dominion keeps them under control.

So question is, which one of the two was in the right (especially in light of the claimed Federation-values of freedom and self-determination)?

Bashir.

Because the one dude who was free of it, didn't go around murdering random people for no reason. He wanted to settle down and do his own thing.

O'Brien does have a very good point about it helping the enemy, but then the enemy is the Dominion, not the Jem'Hadar.

Or to put it another way, in wars, if we capture an enemy in a POW camp, we give them medical treatment. Is that helping the enemy?

It's a grey area, since this is not the same as that situation. I can see both points of view, both are valid, but I lean toward Bashir more. That and Bashir didn't get in trouble over it means it was "right" in the Federation's view. Or at least not "wrong".


Same with Picard and Hugh, actually. It's a pretty identical situation. What was it Picard said:

"Yes Number One, but it may be that it was the moral thing to do, but not the right thing to do."

Certainly I think it would be immoral not to try.

I'd say yes. As with any people, there are some who would remain fanatically loyal to the Founders no matter what. But the fact they NEED the drug addiction strongly implies that overall loyalty is less than perfect. If the Jem Hadar were freed, I would imagine a good number of them would seek revenge against the Founders and the Vorta for keeping them enslaved for so long. Some would probably help the Federation out of gratitude too. I doubt it would be bad for the Feds in the long run...make some new friends (or at least people who have no reason to kill you), and cause chaos in the military organization of the Dominion.

While I would probably agree with Bashir, I struggle to see how it would cause a civil war. The Jem'Hadar have no ships without the Dominion providing them. They don't even command them (we always see a Vorta in charge). Most problematic though, is that even if Bashir found a cure that was 100% effective, it would only affect those Jem'Hadar that are directly cured.

It's not going to be some kind of positive-plague that sweeps every single soldier and makes them rebel. And even if it were, the Dominion could simply quarantine them on the ground and blast them from orbit. Or, and here's the real kicker, simply breed more Jem'Hadar to fight the non-addicted ones. Finally, unless Bashir plans to go to the Gamma Quadrant and spread his cure there, the vast majority of Jem'Hadar won't be affected. And, as pointed out, more can be made "faster than we [the Allied powers] can destroy them" according to Worf.

Unless Bashir can somehow affect the base template used for cloning and affect every single extant Jem'Hadar at once, the Dominion can breed fresh troops to fight this rebellion.

How likely would it be that the freed Jem Hadar would be taught to develop the cure themselves and spread it amongst the others?

If the cure could be made air-transmittable and highly contaginous, spreading it would be less of a problem.

And concerning the need for ships and equipment, all the warships are crewed by Jem'Hadar and there is at best one Vorta against 50 Jem'Hadar aboard the beetle-ships and how quickly those were disposed of, we have seen in "To the Death" with Weyon and the supervisor of the mutineering Jem'Hadar at the site of the Iconian Gate.
"To the Death" also shows the mutineers becoming quite inventive when it comes to equipment-gathering (that had been their reason for assaulting DS9 at the beginning of the episode) and what should prevent sufficient numbers of them from taking over the clone-centres, so the Founders and their remaining loyal lackeys can't clone more?
Who actually builds the Jem'Hadar-warships? The Jem'Hadar? The Vorta? Members of Dominon servant-species like the Karemma?

Even if they don't take over the clone centers, shipyards or generally have a chance of wining they would still detract from the Dominion war effort. Every bullet spent on killing one of these rebels is one not shot at federation troops. So I say do it.

Wasn't the reason that the Jem'Hadar rebels in "To The Death" were considered so dangerous by the Dominion leadership was because of the high risk that their rebellion would spread throughout the Jem'Hadar ranks?

Granted in that case it was because the Jem'Hadar had an independent white supply and an interstellar gateway at their disposal, but an easily made and administered cure for white addiction would allow the possibility of serious rebellion, ignited by the realisation among some of the more canny Jem'Hadar that their gods are not so omnipotent.

NoXion wrote:Wasn't the reason that the Jem'Hadar rebels in "To The Death" were considered so dangerous by the Dominion leadership was because of the high risk that their rebellion would spread throughout the Jem'Hadar ranks?

Granted in that case it was because the Jem'Hadar had an independent white supply and an interstellar gateway at their disposal, but an easily made and administered cure for white addiction would allow the possibility of serious rebellion, ignited by the realisation among some of the more canny Jem'Hadar that their gods are not so omnipotent.

I have to wonder, how credible the threat of a widespread Jem'Hadar-rebellion really is/was, considering, that the source for that claim is Weyon, who is trying to get Sisko and Starfleet to cooperate with him. Called out on the fact, that the Dominion might not be as stable as it pretends to be Weyon quickly backpaddles by claiming, that "the Dominion has existed for 2,000 years and it will be there when the Federation is long gone". And that basically less than two sentences after he painted a picture of a Dominion-wide rebellion, if the mutineers weren't stopped.

Well the threat must have been quite severe as not only did the Dominion reveal the fact that they had an Iconian Gateway in their territory to the Federation, they actually helped the Federation destroy it rather than simply send another fleet to take it over.

Tribble wrote:Well the threat must have been quite severe as not only did the Dominion reveal the fact that they had an Iconian Gateway in their territory to the Federation, they actually helped the Federation destroy it rather than simply send another fleet to take it over.

That or destroying the gateway wasn't the Dominions only objective. Memory Alpha has this bit:

According to the script, when Weyoun "claps" Odo on the shoulder, he infected him with the virus that presents itself in "Broken Link" and necessitates his return to the Great Link (although the way the scene is filmed it does not allow the "clap" to be seen on screen). (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion - A Series Guide and Script Library) This means that as of this point, Odo is infected with two viruses, one by Starfleet and one by the Founders. One may assume the Starfleet virus was dormant during Odo's return to the Great Link at the end of the season.

So the obvious question is: Did the Dominion talk up the scale of the threat just to get at Odo ?

Tribble wrote:Well the threat must have been quite severe as not only did the Dominion reveal the fact that they had an Iconian Gateway in their territory to the Federation, they actually helped the Federation destroy it rather than simply send another fleet to take it over.

Did they? The Dominion, I mean. Because from what is seen in the episode its only Weyoun and his handful of Jem'Hadar, who involve the Federation. Nothing indicates, that the rest of the Dominion is even aware of the mutineers. For all we know the Jem'Hadar mutineered, because their Vorta pissed them of enough and Weyoun is trying to cover it up.

Also, how is Odo being infected supposed to work? The Founders could hardly know, that the Defiant would be there, that it would be there in time to save the crew of the attack-fighter (or know, that they would save them at all), that Odo would be aboard ... .

FTeik wrote:Also, how is Odo being infected supposed to work? The Founders could hardly know, that the Defiant would be there, that it would be there in time to save the crew of the attack-fighter (or know, that they would save them at all), that Odo would be aboard ... .

If the Defiant doesn't show up to save the attack-fighters crew, the Dominion could send another ship. If Odo isn't aboard, they can always make another attempt to infect him at a later date.

bilateralrope wrote:

FTeik wrote:Also, how is Odo being infected supposed to work? The Founders could hardly know, that the Defiant would be there, that it would be there in time to save the crew of the attack-fighter (or know, that they would save them at all), that Odo would be aboard ... .

If the Defiant doesn't show up to save the attack-fighters crew, the Dominion could send another ship. If Odo isn't aboard, they can always make another attempt to infect him at a later date.

True, but we are talking about infecting Odo in connection with the mission to destroy the Iconian Gateway. Considering the advantages such a device would offer (no need for a wormwhole to get to the Alpha-Quadrant), sacrificing it to get at Odo - to whom the Founders probably could get anytime they wanted (considering their infiltration of Earth in "Paradise Lost" or of DS9 with the fake Bashir in "Purgatory's Shadow") - doesn't make sense.

Consider the Founders' priorities. From "Favor the Bold"

"I must say, you're doing a wonderful job with Odo.'"
"Meaning what?!"
"Meaning that he's always posed a potential threat to our plans, but you seem to have neutralized him quite nicely."
"Neutralize Odo?! Is that why you think I'm here?! Odo is a changeling - bringing him home, returning him to the Great Link means more to us than the Alpha Quadrant itself. Is that clear?"
- Weyoun and the Female Changeling

This shows that the Dominion, as it's a oligarchy, only cares about its elite class, the Founders. They take a stance of taking their sweet time with conquests, and getting Odo, a fellow Founder, is a more important priority than conquering a nation. Or in the case of the fourth season, making sure Odo pays for the crime of killing a fellow Founder.

Except that there is no actual evidence in the episode or others to suggest that Weyoun was lying. If the writers had wanted Weyoun to be lying or doing some kind of coverup they could have just as easily included that in the episode or a later one. If they were intending on showing that the Dominion was willing to sacrifice the Iconian gateway just to get at Odo they could have just as easily included that as well. They didn't even show Weyoun infecting Odo, which technically means he could have been infected at any point prior to Broken Link (though I take the script at face value because it doesn't contradict anything in the episode itself). IMO in the absence of any evidence to suggest otherwise the simpler and more likely explanation was that Weyoun was telling the truth, and that he happened to use the opportunity to infect Odo then rather than later.

Tribble wrote:Except that there is no actual evidence in the episode or others to suggest that Weyoun was lying. If the writers had wanted Weyoun to be lying or doing some kind of coverup they could have just as easily included that in the episode or a later one.

They did. In "Rock and Shoals" Sisko refers to the evens of "To the Death", where he describes the Jem'Hadar as professionals and that it had been an honour to serve alongside them, while their Vorta (Weyoun 4) was a piece of slime, whom nobody trusted.

The possibility of a large Jem'Hadar-rebellion might be more credible, if the idea had been followed up on. Yet "To the Death" is to my knowledge the only one of two episodes (the other being "Hyppocratic Oath"), where Jem'Hadar step away from being the loyal muscle of the Dominion. And Goran'Agar (as well as the mutineers from "To the Death") might actually be a similar case as Weyoun 6 (who disagreed with the Dominion-policies and attemtped to desert to the Federation) - a - from the Dominion-POV - defective clone in that his genetic conditioning had failed.

They did. In "Rock and Shoals" Sisko refers to the evens of "To the Death", where he describes the Jem'Hadar as professionals and that it had been an honour to serve alongside them, while their Vorta (Weyoun 4) was a piece of slime, whom nobody trusted.

But despite that, Sisko ultimately ended up agreeing with Weyoun 4 and joining forces with him. He didn't trust Weyoun 4, but he clearly thought that the threat of a widespread Jem'hader rebellion due to the Iconian Gateway was at least credible.

The possibility of a large Jem'Hadar-rebellion might be more credible, if the idea had been followed up on. Yet "To the Death" is to my knowledge the only one of two episodes (the other being "Hyppocratic Oath"), where Jem'Hadar step away from being the loyal muscle of the Dominion. And Goran'Agar (as well as the mutineers from "To the Death") might actually be a similar case as Weyoun 6 (who disagreed with the Dominion-policies and attemtped to desert to the Federation) - a - from the Dominion-POV - defective clone in that his genetic conditioning had failed.

It would hard to follow up on this particular event seeing as the Iconian Gateway was destroyed at the end of the episode. We'll never know if a widespread rebellion would have occurred, and it's possible that particular group of Jem'Hader was defective, but it doesn't change the fact that the Dominion were worried about it enough that they had the Federation destroy the Gateway rather than risk finding out.

Also in "Rocks and Shoals" when Sisko mentions the first Weyoun's death at the hands of his Jem'Hadar, the Jem'Hadar Third he's talking to seemed to shrug and said something along the lines of "Yeah, it happens. But not today." So Jem'Hadar mutinies would seem to be somewhat common, if far lesser in scope than in "To The Death".

Tribble wrote:

They did. In "Rock and Shoals" Sisko refers to the evens of "To the Death", where he describes the Jem'Hadar as professionals and that it had been an honour to serve alongside them, while their Vorta (Weyoun 4) was a piece of slime, whom nobody trusted.

But despite that, Sisko ultimately ended up agreeing with Weyoun 4 and joining forces with him. He didn't trust Weyoun 4, but he clearly thought that the threat of a widespread Jem'hader rebellion due to the Iconian Gateway was at least credible.

Just because Sisko agreed to go along with Weyoun 4 doesn't mean, that the basis of the decision was sound (Sisko is human, too). Aside from that, what should he have done? Risk the Dominion proper regain control of a working Iconian Gateway?

Tribble wrote:

The possibility of a large Jem'Hadar-rebellion might be more credible, if the idea had been followed up on. Yet "To the Death" is to my knowledge the only one of two episodes (the other being "Hyppocratic Oath"), where Jem'Hadar step away from being the loyal muscle of the Dominion. And Goran'Agar (as well as the mutineers from "To the Death") might actually be a similar case as Weyoun 6 (who disagreed with the Dominion-policies and attemtped to desert to the Federation) - a - from the Dominion-POV - defective clone in that his genetic conditioning had failed.

It would hard to follow up on this particular event seeing as the Iconian Gateway was destroyed at the end of the episode. We'll never know if a widespread rebellion would have occurred, and it's possible that particular group of Jem'Hader was defective, but it doesn't change the fact that the Dominion were worried about it enough that they had the Federation destroy the Gateway rather than risk finding out.

What I mean with "followed up" was, had there been more episodes depicting Jem'Hadar dissatisfied with their lot in life and trying to change it/mutineer, not that the particular events of "To the Death" would be followed up on.

NeoGoomba wrote: Also in "Rocks and Shoals" when Sisko mentions the first Weyoun's death at the hands of his Jem'Hadar, the Jem'Hadar Third he's talking to seemed to shrug and said something along the lines of "Yeah, it happens. But not today." So Jem'Hadar mutinies would seem to be somewhat common, if far lesser in scope than in "To The Death".

I wouldn't equate Jem'Hadar murdering their Vortas with mutineering. For one the Vorta seem to be more likely and capable of betraying the Dominion (see Keevran in "Rock and Shoals", Weyon 6 and that Vorta, who surrendered in "Magnificient Ferengi") and two, because the Founders might also think it safer, if their two most important servant-races don't go along.

Since I haven't seen the episode in a while: How do we know that the gateway was functional ?

Or at least close enough to functional that it could be repaired ?

FaxModem1 wrote:Consider the Founders' priorities. From "Favor the Bold"

"I must say, you're doing a wonderful job with Odo.'"
"Meaning what?!"
"Meaning that he's always posed a potential threat to our plans, but you seem to have neutralized him quite nicely."
"Neutralize Odo?! Is that why you think I'm here?! Odo is a changeling - bringing him home, returning him to the Great Link means more to us than the Alpha Quadrant itself. Is that clear?"
- Weyoun and the Female Changeling

This shows that the Dominion, as it's a oligarchy, only cares about its elite class, the Founders. They take a stance of taking their sweet time with conquests, and getting Odo, a fellow Founder, is a more important priority than conquering a nation. Or in the case of the fourth season, making sure Odo pays for the crime of killing a fellow Founder.

Now to go a bit crackpot with my next question: Was the gateway and/or the Jem'Hadar real or something the Dominion staged ?