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Ok in the orginal timeline Vulcans did First Contact then according to Enterprise spent the next hundred years holding humans back. So how would things be diffrent with a different FC. We all know how things would be if it was the Ferengi it would turn out like the B5 FC with the Centuari, but what about others. Races such as Andorians emotional, militaristic or others.

Hard to say as it would be a really big change. As for the Ferengi, depends on whether you roll with the TNG or DS9 version.

I would dispute that the Vulcans spent that time holding humans back.

I mean, humans of 2063 in Star Trek were the battered survivors of a devastating planetary war that had included genocides, nuclear bombings, and as I recall considerable use of bioweapons. It was a miracle that Zefram Cochrane managed to kludge together a warp-capable starship under the conditions he did.

Just stitching the planet back together, providing enough medical and economic aid to repair human civilizations and create from scratch a functional spacefaring culture that could poke around its own solar system, let alone travel into deep interstellar space at high multiples of c, would be a daunting task for a single-planet civilization like Vulcan. Especially since the Vulcans had considerable military and political concerns of their own- they were not alone in the galaxy and had plenty to worry about aside from just taking care of Earthlings.

This is not to say that the Vulcans didn't restrain humans from doing specific things at specific places or times. They clearly did. But there's no evidence of a methodical attempt to "hold humanity back," as opposed to an effort to "make sure they don't do anything stupid like provoke a war with the Klingons before they and we are ready to handle the consequences."

Simon_Jester wrote:I would dispute that the Vulcans spent that time holding humans back.

I mean, humans of 2063 in Star Trek were the battered survivors of a devastating planetary war that had included genocides, nuclear bombings, and as I recall considerable use of bioweapons. It was a miracle that Zefram Cochrane managed to kludge together a warp-capable starship under the conditions he did.

Just stitching the planet back together, providing enough medical and economic aid to repair human civilizations and create from scratch a functional spacefaring culture that could poke around its own solar system, let alone travel into deep interstellar space at high multiples of c, would be a daunting task for a single-planet civilization like Vulcan. Especially since the Vulcans had considerable military and political concerns of their own- they were not alone in the galaxy and had plenty to worry about aside from just taking care of Earthlings.

This is not to say that the Vulcans didn't restrain humans from doing specific things at specific places or times. They clearly did. But there's no evidence of a methodical attempt to "hold humanity back," as opposed to an effort to "make sure they don't do anything stupid like provoke a war with the Klingons before they and we are ready to handle the consequences."

It always seemed to me that the Vulcans weren't holding us back, they just proceeded much more cautiously than we did. I recall a reference from Enterprise when they're talking about the flight tests for the Warp 3 engine. The Vulcans seriously suggest that after the first failed flight, we pull back and run simulations for another *10 YEARS*. I can see how we'd interpret that as holding us back, when the standard human response to failure is to simply try again harder and as quickly as possible. No way I would be able to see Chuck Yeager waiting for 10 more years of wind tunnel testing if his first X-1 flight had been a failure.

Fair.

Also, one must note that the Vulcans somehow survived as a spacefaring culture for centuries* in a galaxy that contained all the relatively hostile and warlike aliens it did in the TOS era. This strongly suggests that they survived precisely because they stayed close to home, avoided antagonizing anyone, and didn't recklessly test any technologies that could potentially screw up and devastate a planet.

From their point of view, the human attitude may have been legitimately seen as extremely dangerous... which probably helps to explain why the two species did better together as a joint Federation of Planets than either one did separately.

*Their split with the Romulans was a LONG time ago and that involved the proto-Romulans boarding generation ships, as I recall...

I think the "take things slow" attitude the Vulcans had is more understandable when Vulcans can quite routinely reach 180-200 years old, so the idea of waiting ten years is less of a major issue for them. For a human that would be "well I probably won't get to do this in my career," for a Vulcan it's "oh well, I'll try again in a while." Of course the humans (especially Archer who is, well, not particularly brilliant) would forget this and only think of it in their terms (not entirely unreasonable, since thy're the ones doing the waiting).

On that note, do we have any idea what human life expectancy was in the 2150's? I would assume roughly the same, but they are only 100 years after WW3 so it might be worse.

From their point of view, the human attitude may have been legitimately seen as extremely dangerous

Soval actually said exactly this to Admiral Forrest. He said that Vulcans are worried about how quickly humans are advancing, that it only took us 10 years to do what took them centuries.

On that note, do we have any idea what human life expectancy was in the 2150's? I would assume roughly the same, but they are only 100 years after WW3 so it might be worse.

Well even in the 24th century it's no more than 137 years. I think they said it was about a century at most in one of the episodes of Enterprise.

There are a few factors with regard to the "Vulcans holding us back" thing:

1. Vulcans live, on average, twice as long as humans, so their concept of what's a reasonable time frame for going back to the drawing board is different than ours.

2. If you recall, Vulcans spend something like 1000 years trying to rebuild their own society, after its breakdown due to their strong emotions taking control, and before finding logic. Thus, they have a very cautious attitude with regards to things that may change society.


That being said, as for what races would benefit humans more could vary depending upon what those aliens' motivations are:

The Ferengi would be willing to sell humans fully functional warp drives, but whether the Earth of that era had anything they'd want, is another story.

If the people of that era were willing to become subjects/citizens of some other empire, then Romulans or Klingons might actually accelerate human's standing in the galaxy, (assuming they aren't jut relegated to 2nd class citizens, though, like the Remans).

Andorians might be an interesting choice for first contact - though they seem to have a paranoid bent to them, we may actually get along quite well with them.

Wasn't there an episode of DS9 that dealt with some findings that early Bajorans were actually quite advanced, and were only set back a great deal by the Cardasians? What if first contact came from one of those early Baoran space travelers - that could be interesting.

What if first contact came from one of those early Bajoran space travelers

That could actually be quite good for us. I can see contact with the Bajorans helping to revive spiritualism here on Earth and actually make the healing process from WW3 that much easier.

Don't forget there is the alternate timeline where First Contact was with 24th century Borg (the one before the E-E entered the time rift). That certainly accelerated humanity's technological advancement and standing in the galaxy a great deal, though I suspect the Borg's "help" wouldn't have been appreciated all that much

MOst races I doubt would see humans as being anything worth interacting with

The Vulcans actually took a conscious stake in rebuilding human civilization because of historical parralels (then promptly crapped themselves with how rapidly humanity abandoned it's petty squabbles.)

The Ferengi likely wouldn't see much profit in interacting with a post WW3 Earth

Klingons or Romulans may see Earth worth conquest if the Sol system has any strategic value, as of 2063 the planet was devastated and incapable of self defense, invasion would be cheap.

To the Andorians, etc. Earth would be a worthless distraction

FedRebel wrote:MOst races I doubt would see humans as being anything worth interacting with

The Vulcans actually took a conscious stake in rebuilding human civilization because of historical parralels (then promptly crapped themselves with how rapidly humanity abandoned it's petty squabbles.)

The Ferengi likely wouldn't see much profit in interacting with a post WW3 Earth

Klingons or Romulans may see Earth worth conquest if the Sol system has any strategic value, as of 2063 the planet was devastated and incapable of self defense, invasion would be cheap.

To the Andorians, etc. Earth would be a worthless distraction

Well depending on how important the Sol system was during that era The Andorians might consider invading as pre-federation Andorian were almost as militant as the Romulans, that said some of Riker's lines in First Contact suggest that not even the Vulcans considered Earth to be of any major importantce until they detected a warp trace from the Phoenix.

In the alternate timeline in ds9 created in past tense, Sol was just humans humming along, no star fleet and presumably no first contact. There were romulan signals in alpha centuri but nothing in sol. Seems no one cared about humanity either way if they never developed warp drive. Maybe sol isn't strategic to anyone except the Federation? The romulans hadn't even bothered to invade.

And the sol system has no dilithium or other 'rare' stuff as far as we know.

In Past Tense, Earth seemed to be rather desolate in the 'present', as O'Brien commented on Earth not being THAT rough in the 21st century and humanity didn't seem to have any civilizations capable of communication. The rougher timeline might have led to a more disastrous World War III that brought civilization to a complete end and Earth uninhabitable.

FaxModem1 wrote:In Past Tense, Earth seemed to be rather desolate in the 'present', as O'Brien commented on Earth not being THAT rough in the 21st century and humanity didn't seem to have any civilizations capable of communication. The rougher timeline might have led to a more disastrous World War III that brought civilization to a complete end and Earth uninhabitable.

Might.

Might not.

who knows? All we know is there were no starfleet signatures and no subspace thingie whatsits in the area.


doesn't matter - alive or not, Earth / Sol apparently wasn't so strategically important else the Romulans who were in the next system, would have had something there.