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So, What you Leave Behind has the Dominion surrender, retreating to the Gamma Quadrant, the Female Founder going on trial for war crimes, and Odo rejoining the Great Link to both heal the diseased link, and to try and educate them about Solids not being evil incarnate. What happens next?

The Dominion can rebuild faster than any of the Alpha Quadrants can, they are healed of the disease, and they can cast out Odo if they want to, as they have done so before. Will the Dominion come back and invade the Alpha Quadrant again? Will they try and restructure the Dominion, and take Odo's lessons to heart?

Somewhere in between?

What's the future of the Dominion?

I think they would probably want to try again, but the real question is whether they can get through the wormhole again, which I doubt. After that fleet got removed in Sacrifice of Angels they nevertried again, implying the Prophets are keeping them out. And after the war ends Sisko is with them to make sure the Dominion stays out.

So unless they want to send fleets on a 60-70 year one-way trip to fight in the AQ, there isn't much they can do.

Well the Great Link supposedly lets all changelings see each other's points of view. So the others would probably see from Odo's perspective that not all solids are evil, and Odo will probably see what caused them to mistrust solids in the first place. With that kind of understanding, I can see the Founders becoming somewhat less xenophobic and the Dominion less totalitarian. What that will lead to in the future...who knows?

Borgholio wrote:Well the Great Link supposedly lets all changelings see each other's points of view. So the others would probably see from Odo's perspective that not all solids are evil, and Odo will probably see what caused them to mistrust solids in the first place. With that kind of understanding, I can see the Founders becoming somewhat less xenophobic and the Dominion less totalitarian. What that will lead to in the future...who knows?

With there slave races overthrowing their gods and going on the warpath since they are made for war and know nothing else?

It is the obvious choice and would make an interesting idea of a new setting with a ship full of founders fleeing to the Alpha Quadrant with hundreds of former Dominion ships in pursuit, they don't intend to ask the UFP for sanctuary just make the fellows think they have while they skedaddle past the UFP and the Neo-Dominion goes to war to kill those harboring their former gods.

I think the ~implication~ was that the Dominion wouldn't try that again and the Federation wouldn't allow anyone from the AQ to go through the wormhole - with Odo standing for the Federation's word. I can see both sides happy with that.

Since the Jem'Hadar are vat-grown and genetically engineered, the key to peace would be to either stop producing them, or to birth one final generation which can reproduce normally and aren't addicted to ketracel white. If they can do that, then they could become a legitimate partner race of the Dominion. Do something similar with the Vorta, and you're well on your way to a more peaceful incarnation of that group.

Alternatively, the Jem'Hadar could rebel against their masters, if they are unable to overcome their lust for war, (though why they would be able to overcome their in-built view of the Changelings as gods/masters would get in the way as well). They could then turn into a sort of rogue/raider faction in the Gamma quadrant, (though they would have to still worry about getting their drug somehow).

Perhaps we could see something where the Jem'Hadar become an independent faction, and "work" for the Changelings on a more voluntary basis, (trading security, defense, and other such mercenary work in exchange for the drug they need).

IMO the Dominion would eventually attack the Alpha Quadrant again. They were already planning to attack the Alpha Quadrant even before the wormhole was discovered; the wormhole just accelerated their plans. They are very good at playing the long game, and would have no problems preparing for decades / centuries if that is what it took to win. I could see them waiting until they were able to travel to the AQ without needing the wormhole, then starting the infiltration / invasion process all over again when they felt the AQ's guard was down.

Also the Dominion won the war overall, and I'd be surprised if they didn't view it as such. Sure they didn't conquer the quadrant, but so what? The Cardassians were wiped out as a military power and the Feds Klingons and Romulans suffered very heavy casualties, while the Dominion's resources and infrastructure in the Gamma Quadrant were left completely intact. If their goal was to prevent any chance of the Alpha Quadrant powers successfully taking on the Gamma Quadrant, they certainly succeeded. Why would the lack of a complete and total victory curb their ambitions? They were only stopped by literal gods, and eventually they'll develop the tech to get around that chokepoint.

Plus I can't see Odo changing their culture that much. After all, he linked with the Female Changling leader several times yet that never seemed to put a dent on her genocidal tendencies. Why would he fare any better against the entire link?

Tribble wrote:IMO the Dominion would eventually attack the Alpha Quadrant again. They were already planning to attack the Alpha Quadrant even before the wormhole was discovered, the wormhole just accelerated their plans. They are very good at playing the long game, and would have no problems preparing for decades / centuries if that is what it took to win. I could see them waiting until they were able to travel to the AQ without needing the wormhole, then starting the infiltration / invasion process all over again when they felt the AQ's guard was down.

That presumes nothing happened to change their position, or happens in the future.

Also the Dominion won the war overall,

Wrong. Or at least highly questionable.

and I'd be surprised if they didn't view it as such.

Depends how high their capacity for self-delusion is. As they are self-proclaimed gods, its probably quite high.

Sure they didn't conquer the quadrant, but so what? The Cardassians were wiped out as a military power and the Feds Klingons and Romulans suffered very heavy casualties, while the Dominion's resources and infrastructure in the Gamma Quadrant were left completely intact.

Evidence for that last bit?

The Federation at the end of the war is, so far as I am aware, as strong as or stronger than it was at the start of the war. The Klingons, Romulans, and especially Cardassians all took a kick in the teeth, but hardly one they cannot readily rebuild from (well, except maybe the Cardassians). If the Dominion waits decades or centuries for another war, those losses will likely be long erased from significance.

As to the Dominion's own infrastructure, their was some limited combat in Dominion space, as I recall. And its also possible that sufficiently heavy losses to their fleet, as well as the disease afflicting the Founders, would have made them weaker and vulnerable to revolts and outside attacks on their space. Certainly they invested a great deal of resources.

There's also the fact that the Founders' very existence continued only thanks to the mercy of the Federation. I'd hardly call surviving only because your enemy spared you winning.

If their goal was to prevent any chance of the Alpha Quadrant powers successfully taking on the Gamma Quadrant, they certainly succeeded. Why would the lack of a complete and total victory curb their ambitions?

See above.

They were only stopped by literal gods, and eventually they'll develop the tech to get around that chokepoint.

Ah, completely ignoring the joint fleet action that pushed them all the way back to Cardassia, and the Cardassian revolt, and the Founders' disease. Those things had no effect at all, of course.

Plus I can't see Odo changing their culture that much. After all, he linked with the Female Changling leader several times yet that never seemed to put a dent on her genocidal tendencies. Why would he fare any better against the entire link?

That's a legitimate concern.

Ah, completely ignoring the joint fleet action that pushed them all the way back to Cardassia, and the Cardassian revolt, and the Founders' disease. Those things had no effect at all, of course.

I think he is more talking about the fact that without the worm hole aliens stopping the Dominion reinforcements arriving the war would likely have ended with the Federation/Klingon attempt to retake DS9 and the subsequent annhilation of both their fleets.

As to the Dominion's own infrastructure, their was some limited combat in Dominion space, as I recall.

Was there? I don't remember any such actions... the entire war takes place this side of the wormhole with no Dominion assets in play excet the expeditionary force. Its similar to the British-Zulu war except Gods prevent the British getting any reinforcements.

Darth Tanner wrote:Was there? I don't remember any such actions... the entire war takes place this side of the wormhole with no Dominion assets in play excet the expeditionary force.

It depends how you define the war - if everything from The Jem'Hadar onwards counts, then there was significant skirmishing on the Gamma Quadrant side, starting with the destruction of New Bajor and the Odyssey.

Darth Tanner wrote:

Ah, completely ignoring the joint fleet action that pushed them all the way back to Cardassia, and the Cardassian revolt, and the Founders' disease. Those things had no effect at all, of course.

I think he is more talking about the fact that without the worm hole aliens stopping the Dominion reinforcements arriving the war would likely have ended with the Federation/Klingon attempt to retake DS9 and the subsequent annhilation of both their fleets.

Maybe. But the other factions fighting the Dominion had many accomplishments of their own. Its not like the victory was all down to divine intervention (even if you consider the wormhole aliens divine).

Was there? I don't remember any such actions... the entire war takes place this side of the wormhole with no Dominion assets in play excet the expeditionary force. Its similar to the British-Zulu war except Gods prevent the British getting any reinforcements.

Their were definitely some clashes in the Gamma Quadrant. Weather it counts as part of the war or pre-war skirmishing as Captain Seafort discussed.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Darth Tanner wrote:Was there? I don't remember any such actions... the entire war takes place this side of the wormhole with no Dominion assets in play excet the expeditionary force.

It depends how you define the war - if everything from The Jem'Hadar onwards counts, then there was significant skirmishing on the Gamma Quadrant side, starting with the destruction of New Bajor and the Odyssey.

not really... the largest fleet sent in there was 20 ships. Other than that, the Defiant killed a few bugs but in every engagement in the GQ, the AQ side lost. The Dominion was never threatened on their home turf.

That presumes nothing happened to change their position, or happens in the future.

Short of something like an all-out Borg invasion (which according to tv canon won't happen since the Borg were apparently destroyed by future Janeway), there really isn't anything stopping the Dominion from preparing for another invasion down the road. As far as we know, they are the dominant power in the GQ with no real contenders.

Wrong. Or at least highly questionable.

If you look at Dominion losses vs AQ losses, the Dominion fared much better. Their infrastructure in the GQ was left completely untouched by the war, and their losses were comparatively easy to replace. IIRC, it was stated that the Federation was the only major power left intact; the Klingons and Romulans were said to need several years to recover (and the destruction of Romulus certainly didn't help the ladder), while the Cardassians were practically wiped out. And it's not like Federation casualties were light either.

Evidence for that last bit?

IIRC the final battles were an "all or nothing" campaign - either they broke through the lines and defeated the AQ Dominion forces, or the AQ Dominion forces would eventually overtake them in sheer production. When the combined fleet attacked Cardassian Prime, they were losing until the Cardassians switched sides at the last moment. Hell, even after they broke through the lines the Female Changling pointed out that the Dominion had enough remaining forces in the AQ to make a total victory very costly. There's no chance that the AQ powers were any shape to mount an invasion of the GQ after the Cardassian battle.

As to the Dominion's own infrastructure, their was some limited combat in Dominion space, as I recall. And its also possible that sufficiently heavy losses to their fleet, as well as the disease afflicting the Founders, would have made them weaker and vulnerable to revolts and outside attacks on their space. Certainly they invested a great deal of resources.

At no point did anyone ever state that the AQ was in a positon to attack the Dominion head-on in the GQ - all the worry was when the Dominion was going to attack them, not the other way around. IIRC, the only time the GQ Dominion forces were attacked was Romulans and Cardassians attempted to destroy the Founder home world, because that was the only realistic way they were going to be able to strike a decisive blow against the Dominion... and they were curb stomped. The Dominion's GQ infrastructure was left untouched during the war.

There's also the fact that the Founders' very existence continued only thanks to the mercy of the Federation. I'd hardly call surviving only because your enemy spared you winning.

See above. The fact is, the Federation did not kill off the Founders, and in terms of ships/troops the Dominion's losses were minor. After the attack on Cardassian Prime, there's no way the AQ powers would have been in any shape to attack the Dominion's GQ forces for the foreseeable future. I guess you could argue that they didn't win as they didn't conquer the entire AQ, but I'd hardly call that a victory for the AQ powers.

Ah, completely ignoring the joint fleet action that pushed them all the way back to Cardassia, and the Cardassian revolt, and the Founders' disease. Those things had no effect at all, of course.

The fact is, the AQ stood no chance of winning if the Dominion was able to use its resources and industry in the GQ. The GQ is where most of the Dominion lies, and that was left unscathed. Their losses in the AQ are pretty much irrelevant, especially because a lot of their forces later on were produced there. I find it hard to call mere survival a victory for the AQ powers.

If anything, once the Founders recover form their illness they're gonna be pissed. They pretty much view themselves as gods, and the solids had the audacity to try and commit genocide via virus, something which even the Dominion never really considered against the AQ powers. Odo failed to change their attitudes before, I don't see why curing them of a disease which specifically designed to kill them all is going to change their minds. IMO it's far more likely the Dominion would do whatever it takes for however long it takes to make sure that one day they'll be able to come back and wipe out the AQ entirely.

Tribble - at one point you mention that Janeway apparently killed off the Borg according to TV canon - I don't dispute that, it's a possible interpretation and certainly I think the implication.

Just like in DS9 - the implication is that the Founders will back off. In any event, the wormhole will be mined completely. The Dominion wont get through again.

Yes they could come with fancy warp drive in many years / decades but by then the Federation will also have advanced. Besides, we see in the 26th and 29th centuries, the Federation is a top tier time war / galactic power (if not other galaxies). The Dominion, whether they tried or not, never succeeded in winning against them. Not until beyond the 31st century.

The wormhole doesn't need to be mined again as long as Sisko and the Prophets (sounds like an old rock band don't it?) continue to prevent the Dominion from using it. Notably there is no mention of the Federation re-mining the wormhole entrance once they re-take DS9.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Tribble - at one point you mention that Janeway apparently killed off the Borg according to TV canon - I don't dispute that, it's a possible interpretation and certainly I think the implication.

Just like in DS9 - the implication is that the Founders will back off. In any event, the wormhole will be mined completely. The Dominion wont get through again.

Yes they could come with fancy warp drive in many years / decades but by then the Federation will also have advanced. Besides, we see in the 26th and 29th centuries, the Federation is a top tier time war / galactic power (if not other galaxies). The Dominion, whether they tried or not, never succeeded in winning against them. Not until beyond the 31st century.

True. My point is that they would in all likelihood try again, even if it's clear that they failed (or bided their time) until at least the 31st century. The Founders never struck me as the type to just shrug their shoulders (metaphorically speaking of course) and give up. The only thing that stopped them was that they were all about to die, and Odo offered a cure in return for the end of hostilities. IIRC that included having all the remaining Dominion forces in the AQ return back to the GQ, so there wasn't any chance of an immediate backstab. However, the Founders are known liars and masters of deception. The implication was that Odo would try to change their minds, but there's no evidence to suggest that he would succeed. Every time Odo interacted with them in the past he failed to nudge them one bit. Why would giving them a cure change their minds?

It would be one thing if the virus was natural, and even though they were at war the Federation offered to cure it as a gesture of goodwill. Then I could see the Founders starting to rethink their whole anti-solids thing, or at least their attitudes towards the Federation. However, the virus was a deliberate attempt at genocide, and I don't see why the Founders would be grateful for the fact that the Feds decided to relent at the last moment. "Thank you for curing us at the last minute after deliberately infecting us with a lethal virus! We trust you now!" If anything, one would think that their hatred for solids would only increase since they came so close to killing them. Yes yes, Section 31, rogue agency and all that, but do you really think the Founders wouldn't blame the entire Federation if not all AQ solids for that incident? Especially if/when they found out that the Federation Council was aware of the fact that they were infected, but decided to keep the cure as a negotiating tactic?

Of course, it's possible that the Dominion was never aware of the fact that the virus was a deliberate genocide attempt, and Odo may have tried to hide that fact from them. Though lying about the genocide attempt would kind of defeat the purpose of trying to convince the Founders that the solids could be trustworthy...

"Yes, some solids can be trusted. No, no, they would never consider developing a virus to wipe us all out, that's just being silly."

What I think will happen is that the Dominion will keep expanding over on their side of the galaxy until:
- Their borders run into Federation borders again. Until that happens I'd expect them to leave the Federation alone, except for sending spies to keep track of what the Federation is up to if they have FTL that makes that viable. Conquering solids that are on the Dominions current borders will be more important to them than fighting a faction that is leaving them alone. Once their borders meet, then war becomes likely*.
- The Dominion gets as big as their logistics and command structure allows and its expansion stalls.
- The Dominion pisses off someone really powerful and gets squashed. For example, they start a war with Species 8472 or one of the various god beings hiding amongst the galaxy.

*Odo convincing them that the Federation can be trusted is unlikely. But not impossible over those centuries.

I think re: genocide, it's possible they would listen to Odo - and see they really were rogue. I mean, that much is true. It's not a lie.

The Dominion are bad guys... maybe they'll try again later - but I don't think they'll win. The Federation takes over the Galaxy in any case. The dominion was about 10 years ahead in technology when they first met. At the end of DS9 they seemed on par.

The only advantage the Dominion had was they were prepping for a long time for this, the Federation only had a year's notice.

I don't think the Dominion are that big of a threat, when it comes down to it.

Odo would be one voice in a literal sea of however many are in the great link. He linked with the great link more than once and it had no effect on the intent to continue with the invasion of the AQ. Odo cannot bring anything more to the table except his experiences on the other side of the fence during the war.

If anything I would expect the Founders to be even MORE determined to nuke all solids because they were paranoid about a threat. Turns out the squeeky clean Federation has a secret intelligence force that literally devised a means to genocide them all AND were going to let it run the full course. Once the founders devise a means of getting around the bio-weapons and rebuild their forces to an acceptable point it becomes increasingly likely they will try again. The only thing that really prevents them from doing so is once again the choke point of DS9.

The optimal solution: The Dominion builds a mirror to DS9 on their side and blows away any poor bastard that tries to come out their side.
Federation does the same and your stuck with a hilarious stand off that lasts until one side pushes or both sides start being diplomatic.

In theory, the Federation managed the same stunt with the Romulans and the Klingons. The latter went from enemy to ally so... the Dominion could end up with a similar relationship with the Feds.

Universal Peace solution: Dominion and Federation join forces. Extremely unlikely but if they do or one side gets assimilated into the other then the resulting empire will certainly give the Borg a run for the money in size.

The Founders reaction to the bioweapon could make them more determined to nuke all solids. Or it could make them more cautious about starting a war with someone who might have the capability to produce another similar bioweapon. Most likely is some Founders go each way, leading to disagreement.

But that's not the only big surprise the Dominion received in the war. The other big surprise would be the Prophets destroying the Dominion fleet. The Dominion has probably encountered god beings before. If TOS is a representative sample of the galaxy, god beings are all over the place. But the Prophets are the only ones I can recall that picked a side in a fight between lesser species. Maybe the only god beings the Dominion has seen who didn't remain neutral.

I think it's a bit silly taking the examples of a future Federation (which to my knowledge is never said to 'rule the galaxy' - in extra-canon authorial comments it has intergalactic travel, but rule the entire galaxy?) as evidence that the Dominion must have been defeated in warfare.

For all we know the Founders worked out how to ascend to energy being status in the 28th Century, after occupying the Federation for sixty years, or had a cultural revolution of their own for unrelated reasons.

You can't really conjecture over centuries; perhaps the Dominion is overthrown by a revolt in one of the oppressed peoples, or a natural plague occurs and kills the founders. Perhaps they are assimilated somehow; or perhaps they infiltrate the Federation and by the 31st Century the entire Federation Council is Founders.

With that out of the way, I'd give my answer.



The Doylian answer to much of the quandries regarding the Dominion's strength is of course that the writers early on built it up as a superpower with sun-destroying weapons, telekinetic Vorta and multi-light year shield penetrating teleporters, capable of seeing through cloaks and shooting through shields. Most of these abilities disappeared when it came to writing war episodes, because there's no winning against that.

Some of these things, such as the shield upgrades, were simply delivered without explanation, because otherwise the Dominion ships would perform like they did in The Die is Cast and other early episodes, where, with the exception of the armoured Defiant, they clean house with absolute ease.


The Watsonian answer is almost certainly that the Dominion would plot another campaign and upgrade its weapons and technologies again, then eventually come in and kick ass. Size, overall technology and many other factors are on their side. Perhaps pluck, or allies, or the intervention of say, the Metrons, swings the day for the solids.

The Doylian answer, is that Odo teaches them the error of their ways and they reform, going from an anti-Federation, through painful reforms to a Gamma-Federation. Star Trek is ultimately about the value of understanding and cooperation.

A strictly rational answer is 'we have no idea.'

Given that the Federation manages to live through to the 31st Century, and my love of the heel-face turn, I'll go with the Doylian answer.

NecronLord wrote:Some of these things, such as the shield upgrades, were simply delivered without explanation, because otherwise the Dominion ships would perform like they did in The Die is Cast and other early episodes, where, with the exception of the armoured Defiant, they clean house with absolute ease.

We were given an explanation for the shield upgrades - the Federation captured a bug (in The Ship) and after several months of study were able to come up with a solution to its weapons' shield-penetrating properties. It was the one Sisko and co later used to infiltrate Dominion-controlled space to blow up the ketracel white depot.

Captain Seafort wrote:

NecronLord wrote:Some of these things, such as the shield upgrades, were simply delivered without explanation, because otherwise the Dominion ships would perform like they did in The Die is Cast and other early episodes, where, with the exception of the armoured Defiant, they clean house with absolute ease.

We were given an explanation for the shield upgrades - the Federation captured a bug (in The Ship) and after several months of study were able to come up with a solution to its weapons' shield-penetrating properties. It was the one Sisko and co later used to infiltrate Dominion-controlled space to blow up the ketracel white depot.

Though well known, I believe that to be a fan-theory, or something from the technical manuals. The Defiant is mysteriously able to withstand dominion bug ship's weapons in 'Starship Down' a season before they got the crashed ship from 'The Ship.' I'd welcome correction though, is there a quote about that?

NecronLord wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:

NecronLord wrote:Some of these things, such as the shield upgrades, were simply delivered without explanation, because otherwise the Dominion ships would perform like they did in The Die is Cast and other early episodes, where, with the exception of the armoured Defiant, they clean house with absolute ease.

We were given an explanation for the shield upgrades - the Federation captured a bug (in The Ship) and after several months of study were able to come up with a solution to its weapons' shield-penetrating properties. It was the one Sisko and co later used to infiltrate Dominion-controlled space to blow up the ketracel white depot.

Though well known, I believe that to be a fan-theory, or something from the technical manuals. The Defiant is mysteriously able to withstand dominion bug ship's weapons in 'Starship Down' a season before they got the crashed ship from 'The Ship.' I'd welcome correction though, is there a quote about that?

Hmm, IIRC the during 'Starship Down' the Defiant was in a gas giant when it was being hit... maybe the gases interfered with the polaran beam enough for the shields to take a hit? The shields didn't seem that effective in the episode since the Defiant got its ass kicked. Or maybe the Feds had been able to partially block the beams, but it wasn't until they captured the bug ship that they were able to learn enough to block them fully.

I'm not aware of anything in the episodes that says that the vessel in The Ship was in any way integral to learning how to block the polaron beams though? I think that's a fan-explanation.

Somewhat logical, to be sure, but an after-the-fact explanation for the Dominion getting hit with a nerf-bat.