Romulan Warp Speeds - Nemesis

[NecronLord]

PICARD (V.O.)
Captain's Personal Log. Supplemental. We're heading toward Federation space at maximum warp. The crew has responded with the dedication I've come to expect of them. And like a thousand other commanders on a thousand other battlefields throughout history, I wait for the dawn.

Shinzon manages to follow the Enterprise, as does the Valdore and its escort ship; I recall much has been made of the Romulans having slower warp speed than the Federation in TNG; it seems as though both the Scimitar and the Valdore/Norexean/Mogai class can overtake a Sovereign class in the film era; perhaps that situation's been entirely reversed.

Does anyone know a good example of the Sovereign class' maximum warp speed to work out how these compare to other Federation ships?

[Eternal_Freedom]

The only one that springs to mind is the flight from the Neutral Zone to Earth in STFC. Though Nemesis offers another possibility; Enterprise made it from Romulus orbit back into Federation space in a matter of a day at most. Shinzon was stated to have very little time left (a few days or so) and relatively little time passed before Shinzon caught them, though it was definitely in Federation space since the Starfleet battle group was waiting for them on the far side of that rift-nebula thing.

Incidentally, where did Mogai come from as a name for the Valdore's class? Wasn't that a class of IJN cruisers, or am I getting mixed up with the Mogamis?

[Batman]

Wasn't the romulan ships being slower because they usually travelled cloaked and them going too fast would make their 'Warp Signature' bleed through the cloak instead of them being inherently slower?

[Batman]

Wasn't the romulan ships being slower because they usually travelled cloaked and them going too fast would make their 'Warp Signature' bleed through the cloak instead of them being inherently slower?

[Khaat]

Warp 8 is the highest speed a Sovereign-class ship was known to have traveled on-screen. According to Star Trek: Starship Spotter, the maximum warp of the Sovereign-class ship was warp factor 9.7. However, Star Trek Evolutions gives the Sovereign a maximum warp of 9.985. The latest edition of "Star Trek: Ships of the Line" gives the Sovereign class a maximum warp speed of 9.995.

Valdore-type/Mogai-class warbird... no listed top speed

In the year 2379, two Valdore-type starships assisted the USS Enterprise-E in attacking the rogue Reman warbird Scimitar in the Bassen Rift.
*
The Star Trek Customizable Card Game refers to the Valdore-type as the Norexan-class.

The Star Trek: Titan novels from Pocket Books classify the Valdore-type as the Mogai-class, after a man-sized predatory bird native to Romulus. Star Trek Online does so as well, though it also features an upgraded version which is referred to as the Valdore-class.

[NecronLord]

Wasn't the romulan ships being slower because they usually travelled cloaked and them going too fast would make their 'Warp Signature' bleed through the cloak instead of them being inherently slower?

There's a scene in Tin Man where a D'Deridex burns out its engine coils to overtake the Enterprise, its cloak is compromised before that point and they see it coming.

RIKER
(to Data)
I thought you said the Enterprise was faster than this Romulan --

DATA
In fact, we are, Commander. However --


[...]

DATA
Captain, it would appear that the Romulan's intent is to contact Tin Man first, at any cost.
(MORE)

STAR TREK: "Tin Man" - REV. 2/6/90 - ACT THREE 31.

52 CONTINUED:

DATA (Cont'd)
(pause)
According to my sensor readings, the warbird exceeded maximum engine output by nearly thirty percent... They appear to have suffered irreparable damage to their warp coils.

Riker takes his chair.

RIKER
So -- they kept up with us by sacrificing their ability to return to Romulan space.

These ships seem to be able to overtake the Enterprise and sneak up on it, however.

[Prometheus Unbound]

PICARD (V.O.)
Captain's Personal Log. Supplemental. We're heading toward Federation space at maximum warp. The crew has responded with the dedication I've come to expect of them. And like a thousand other commanders on a thousand other battlefields throughout history, I wait for the dawn.

Shinzon manages to follow the Enterprise, as does the Valdore and its escort ship; I recall much has been made of the Romulans having slower warp speed than the Federation in TNG; it seems as though both the Scimitar and the Valdore/Norexean/Mogai class can overtake a Sovereign class in the film era; perhaps that situation's been entirely reversed.

Does anyone know a good example of the Sovereign class' maximum warp speed to work out how these compare to other Federation ships?

The speed difference wasn't crazy big to begin with. The Scimitar I will just write off as being faster because it was better at everything else.... the Valdores probably caught up when the Enterprise dropped out of warp.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Wasn't the romulan ships being slower because they usually travelled cloaked and them going too fast would make their 'Warp Signature' bleed through the cloak instead of them being inherently slower?

No. That was in DS9.

The bit about being slower comes from TNG's Tin Man - the Enterprise is racing at maximum warp to Tin Man. Romulans are following but can't catch up - Data postulates that their maximum warp is slightly less of the Enterprise-D. The Romulans overload their engines and overtake the Enterprise, but it burns out their warp drive in the process. But it wasn't much difference to start with - they were afraid the Romulans could get there first even without overloading.


EDIT: oh necron got there

[NecronLord]

You make a fine point there Prometheus, though from the attack on the Enterprise beginning to the decloaking is long enough for Picard to turbolift to the bridge, do battle for under three minutes, and have a brief conversation with Shinzon; assuming Donatra left immediately after we saw her, she was still on the senate floor while the Enterprise and Scimitar had been underway for an uncertain time period; the Valdores could in principle be no faster, but I'd doubt it, to be honest; but I had overlooked that.

I'd say given that Donatra presumably had to wait on the admirals' final decision (and she left them in a room to discuss) before setting out she might well have left some time later. Conversely of course she could have immediately beamed up to her ships and left, and the admirals could have relayed orders enroute...

Necrons always get there first. We teleport.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Is it possible that Valdore and her consort overclocked their engines as the Warbird in Tin Man did? It would make a reasonable amount of sense for her: they either help Enterprise defeat Scimitar or they get totalled. If they do win, they can arrange a tow, if they're destroyed then having broken warp engines scarcely matters.

[NecronLord]

It's conceivable, but no one expresses any surprise about it whatsoever, as contrasted with Tin Man.

[Eternal_Freedom]

They were in the middle of combat, discussing a potential ally's engine performance would be absurd even for early-TNG Data.

[Batman]

In the middle of 'impulse' combat no less what with the Big E's Warp drive having been crippled. You don't discuss your Warp capability (or lack thereof) when everybody is moving at impulse anyway.

[Wing Commander MAD]

PICARD (V.O.)
Captain's Personal Log. Supplemental. We're heading toward Federation space at maximum warp. The crew has responded with the dedication I've come to expect of them. And like a thousand other commanders on a thousand other battlefields throughout history, I wait for the dawn.

Shinzon manages to follow the Enterprise, as does the Valdore and its escort ship; I recall much has been made of the Romulans having slower warp speed than the Federation in TNG; it seems as though both the Scimitar and the Valdore/Norexean/Mogai class can overtake a Sovereign class in the film era; perhaps that situation's been entirely reversed.

Does anyone know a good example of the Sovereign class' maximum warp speed to work out how these compare to other Federation ships?

Why are we trying to generalize performance for an entire empire's propulsion based on the speed of specific vessels from one or two specific incidents? It could be that the Galaxy class is faster than the D'Deridex. Though, it could also be that there was some other issue that caused the warbird to have to overload its engines.

Even if there was nothing wrong with the warbird in question, it simply could be that the D'Deridex is designed with a lower max speed due to some other performance constraint outweighing top speed for that design. I really do not think we can make a general conclusion about Romulan warp speeds unless we have a quote that lends itself to that. Its not like we have a quote like this:

Keyes: Cortana, all I need to know is did we lose them?

Cortana: I think we both know the answer to that.

Keyes: (Sigh) We made a blind jump how did they...

Cortana: Get here first? The Covenant ships have always been faster. As for
tracking us all the way from Reach? At light speed my maneuvering options were
limited.

[Prometheus Unbound]

It's conceivable, but no one expresses any surprise about it whatsoever, as contrasted with Tin Man.

Surprise about what? Their arrival (presumably coming in cloaked at warp) was a surprise to everyone. Shinzon didn't know what time she left Romulus and the Enterprise and crew would have absolutely no way of knowing. I don't think either party would particularly care how they're there, especially Enterprise. And as someone else pointed out, they're in the middle of a battle and a bit distracted.

[NecronLord]

They were in the middle of combat, discussing a potential ally's engine performance would be absurd even for early-TNG Data.

Except for the Tin Man example above where they do indeed have exactly that conversation as a warbird attacks? It doesn't take a Shakespeare. "I thought the Enterprise was quicker than warbirds!" "They must be redlining their engines." But that's fine. There's no evidence the Valdores were suffering engine damage, parsimony suggests they're not.

If anything, the Enterprise was the one that had been running at 'emergency warp' when they left Romulus.

Why are we trying to generalize performance for an entire empire's propulsion based on the speed of specific vessels from one or two specific incidents?

Given that D'Deridexes were the only Romulan warships seen for a very long time, I don't see how that's unreasonable; D'Deridexes pretty much defined the Romulan navy.

It could be that the Galaxy class is faster than the D'Deridex. Though, it could also be that there was some other issue that caused the warbird to have to overload its engines.

Even if there was nothing wrong with the warbird in question, it simply could be that the D'Deridex is designed with a lower max speed due to some other performance constraint outweighing top speed for that design. I really do not think we can make a general conclusion about Romulan warp speeds unless we have a quote that lends itself to that. Its not like we have a quote like this:

I'd welcome counter-examples from Star Trek.

Surprise about what? Their arrival (presumably coming in cloaked at warp) was a surprise to everyone. Shinzon didn't know what time she left Romulus and the Enterprise and crew would have absolutely no way of knowing. I don't think either party would particularly care how they're there, especially Enterprise. And as someone else pointed out, they're in the middle of a battle and a bit distracted.

Shinzon had at least spoken to her on the senate floor not long before. And again, it only takes a single line if they wanted to establish that as a fact.

From a production perspective, the intention of John Eaves and others was that the Valdore was to be equipped with new secondary nacelles to be used when cloaked (source) at one point, presumably because they were aware of previously established warp/cloak problems and wanted this ship not to have them, though that sadly didn't make it to the final product.

[Prometheus Unbound]

tbh, I always took it that she says the line something about "And his sins will mark us and our children, forever" and it focuses on her face then switches to Shinzon or the Enterprise I think.

It may not be good story telling but I think either the Admiral agreed with her straight up or she went ahead and did it anyway - and literally 2 mins later she's giving the order to depart. Partially terrified about Earth, partially terrified about the Federation about to declare war on them.


Assuming the above, I can see how they only took a few minutes later to arrive - Enterprise had dropped out of warp by this point anyway...

It's not great but it's all I have in my head.




Failing that, I pick the overloading engines, just that no one mentioned it option.

You can say that there's no line for it or evidence but... well, they got there, didn't they?


Jesus Nemesis is such a pile of shit.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Local space near the former Romulan system is known to be riddled with plot holes through which starships could rapidly travel. Many are found withing cloud of Romulan fart gas.*

Seriously, maybe Scimitar and the Valdores shared similar improved warp cores which may have been in development during the Dominion War. Especially if we believe the ST novels/comics and go with the Scimitar having been built by/in cooperation with the Tal'Shirar.

*Similar plot holes are known to exist near Sector 001, the most prominent of which were discovered during STFC. These First Contact plot holes were, ironically, discovered by John Sheridan, on the planet Zha'ha'Dum, in the B5 universe, when he fell through one.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'd say honestly, we're thinking about it far, far far more than the writers did.

Overall Romulan warp speeds seem to be "on par" with the Federation. Other than Balance of Terror (which is ambiguous on Impulse/Warp anyway), they had Warp 5 back when the Humans did. In TNG they can both do Warp 9.6. Enterprise can do 9.8 at a push for short times - so can Warbirds apparently - just... shorter times. I suppose the ship is like 8x the "size" of a Galaxy class, it's "heavier" ? :S

I think they're certainly on par. Definitely within the same OOM. Nothing from The Neutral Zone onwards indicates to me they are lacking in any particular technologies over the Federation. Not particularly advanced, either. Aside from cloaks, of course.


Well, until the Federation starts using slipstream or transwarp or dimentional shifting (whatever Janeway used in End Game)

[U.P. Cinnabar]

- so can Warbirds apparently - just... shorter times. I suppose the ship is like 8x the "size" of a Galaxy class, it's "heavier" ? :S

More likely, the D'deridex's designers overgunned/shielded the bloody thing, so power that could have gone to the warp engines went to weapons and shields instead. Another likely scenario is that since Roms like to travel under cloak normally, their warp speed under cloak would naturally be much slower than uncloaked, because the cloaking device is eating up power which otherwise would've gone to the warp engines. Especially if the cloak accesses a domain of subspace to do its magic.


(gaahh! But, it would allow for the violation of the "no stealth in space" rule. It would also explain why tachyon pulses can detect them consistently)

Other than Balance of Terror (which is ambiguous on Impulse/Warp anyway)

The usual fan explanation, and the one used by ADB for Star Fleet Battles is that impulse engines use low-level warpfields to achieve high sublight speeds, and you can go FTL using an impulse reactor, just not very fast.

Well, until the Federation starts using slipstream or transwarp or dimentional shifting (whatever Janeway used in End Game)

Admiral Janeway used a time-travel doohickey developed by a Klingon house. No specifics as to its operation.

While Voyager used a Borg transwarp conduit to get home.

[NeoGoomba]

The early-TNG belief that Romulan engines were slower than Starfleet equivalents doesn't necessarily conflict with the DS9 "Slower due to cloak" explaination. The Romulans have just come out of isolation in TNG, and there was probably a lot of intel on them and their technological capabilities that was guesswork and theory. So they just assume that the Romulans are slower due to inferior engines, and don't take cloak issues into it.

By the time DS9 comes around, perhaps it was more widely known that Romulan engines were near-par with Starfleet, but the cloak had hampered their top speeds?

[NecronLord]

This is entirely superficial but both new types of Romulan ship – being designed by John Eaves – have his trademark ‘crown’ of two top ridges on the dorsal side of the ship, which was introduced with Dominion battleships/cruisers. If I were writing fanfic, I’d say that this was something reverse engineered from the Dominion and related to propulsion.

[Prometheus Unbound]

That's possible but the Dominion Battleship in ... Valiant (?) I think had a top speed of warp 5 or 6...

Have Dominion ships ever been shown to be super fast? It wouldn't surprise me much. They chased a Runabout which can go at Warp 8 with some battlebugs. They did catch it, but it wasn't like double the speed or anything. The chase took a while.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

That's possible but the Dominion Battleship in ... Valiant (?) I think had a top speed of warp 5 or 6...

Have Dominion ships ever been shown to be super fast? It wouldn't surprise me much. They chased a Runabout which can go at Warp 8 with some battlebugs. They did catch it, but it wasn't like double the speed or anything. The chase took a while.

That was from "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River," if memory serves, and Odo was using every trick he knew to just barely stay ahead of the Jem'haha. Also the Jemmies and their Vorta were reluctant to attack a ship with one of their gods on board.*

Also, Jake and Nog's runabout got jumped by Jemmie bug fighters in "Valiant," aka "Mobile Suit Star Trek," where the Dominion battleship made its first appearance.

It's entirely possible the Roms(probably, again, the Tal'Shiar) discovered that dorsal crown on Dominion ships would work far better with their artificial singularities than with a conventional warp core at boosting their maximum available warp speed. All conjecture, quite naturally, since Paramount has abandoned the Prime Universe in favor of JJVerse, and JJVerse Rom warp speeds aren't going to be the same as PUverse Rom warp speeds anyway, unless they're using artificial singularities as well.

*Though they were more than willing to do so in "The Die Is Cast."

[NecronLord]

That's possible but the Dominion Battleship in ... Valiant (?) I think had a top speed of warp 5 or 6...

Have Dominion ships ever been shown to be super fast? It wouldn't surprise me much. They chased a Runabout which can go at Warp 8 with some battlebugs. They did catch it, but it wasn't like double the speed or anything. The chase took a while.

That was from "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River," if memory serves, and Odo was using every trick he knew to just barely stay ahead of the Jem'haha. Also the Jemmies and their Vorta were reluctant to attack a ship with one of their gods on board.*

Also, Jake and Nog's runabout got jumped by Jemmie bug fighters in "Valiant," aka "Mobile Suit Star Trek," where the Dominion battleship made its first appearance.

It's entirely possible the Roms(probably, again, the Tal'Shiar) discovered that dorsal crown on Dominion ships would work far better with their artificial singularities than with a conventional warp core at boosting their maximum available warp speed. All conjecture, quite naturally, since Paramount has abandoned the Prime Universe in favor of JJVerse, and JJVerse Rom warp speeds aren't going to be the same as PUverse Rom warp speeds anyway, unless they're using artificial singularities as well.

*Though they were more than willing to do so in "The Die Is Cast."

JJVerse warp speed knocks spots off even slipstream, and is up there with borg transwarp.