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I'm a little confused about Klingon Houses.

We have the House of Martok, whose patriarch is General Martok. We also have the House of Duras, which is lead by a fellow by the name of Duras.

So it seems the name of a Klingon House is identical to the name of its acting head. So every time a younger Klingon becomes head of his family, because his predecessor has kicked the bucket, the name of the name House would change. Documenting history, not to mention keeping track of all assets, obligations, contracts and so on becomes rather difficult, if a House changes name every thirty years.

But on the other side, the House of Duras stayed the House of Duras even after Duras was killed and his son Toral became the nominal head. It didn't change into the House of Toral. Same is true for Worf's House. The House of Mogh should have become the House of Worf, once Worf assumed leadership, but it is still called the House of Mogh throughout the entirety of TNG and DS9.

Thoughts?

Possibly it's not named for the Current head. (Though the House Of Quark is probably a good example of it changing, unless the title is in error.) But for it's founder. It just happens that Houses tend to name subsequent generations after their founder and it happens that when we first met Duras family that had a Duras as head.

Martok was the founder of his House so it would make sense it was named after him. (He's a commoner by birth, but came into a House by rising to Officerdom iirc)

Several possibilities:

1) House names may vary according to some complicated set of rules, that really do seem inconsistent to outsiders because we don't know the rules.

2) House names may be 'interchangeable-' that is, it may be that under Klingon custom it would be equally acceptable to say "House of Mogh" and "House of Worf" now that Worf runs the house. In which case individual Klingons can do as they like.

3) Klingon house heads may have the option of changing the name of their house, just as individuals choose to change their names, and it may be that most Klingon nobles don't do this, because they're trying to honor their parents.

I assumed that Klingons like to name their children after the honoured individual whose name adorns the house. The heir gets the good name, the spare gets something else.

Klingon houses being named after their founders seems the most logical as we have at least 2 Klingons named "Duras" (the one from ENT and the one from TNG) and in case of Quark is might be that when marrying the widow of the klingon he (accidently) killed Quark created legally a new house (it seems that women can be a head of a house only when there's no male of age is present in TNG era).

So House Duras and House Mogh were founded by klingons named Duras and Mogh and IIRC both were implied to be old noble houses with long traditions. It just happens during the TNG era the head of the house Duras was also named Duras presumebly out of tradition.

I assumed that Klingons like to name their children after the honoured individual whose name adorns the house. The heir gets the good name, the spare gets something else.

IIRC during the middle ages it was typical to name the eldest son after their father (in noble/royal families at least) with their brothers getting other traditional names.

It's also possible that the houses are named after a significant (whatever that metric is) family member. Worf was almost always "Worf son of Mogh" among klingons [maybe not even "son of" in that his father was named Mogh, but he was of the line of Mogh], even after he cleared his father's name by honor-killing Duras (a presumptive contender for the Big Seat.) Lineage wouldn't be hard: doubtless the lineage would do: "Alexander son of Worf, son of Mogh." Worf didn't name his son, so perhaps the tradition would be to name alternate generations after the House founder, and Alexander should have been named Mogh (but wasn't because K'leyhr had a better understanding of the politics.)

Worf's grandfather (from Undiscovered Country) was named Worf. So it could be House founder Mogh, 1st son Worf, 1st son Mogh, etc...

.......or most likely inconsistences by the story writers who didn't check what they had previously put out!

JamesStaley wrote:.......or most likely inconsistences by the story writers who didn't check what they had previously put out!

Very likely.

One possibility that did occur was that while the general rule is that a House is named for its current head, it can also use the name of a particularly honoured recent ancestor; a way of gaining standing by drawing on a glorious reputation. By the same token, a shamed House is made to bear the name of the shamed leader until the requisite three generations have passed.

Of course, this is as much about the family's opinion as it is of Klingon society. Worf may have named his House for his father not merely because of the disgrace, but as a way of defying it, and of honouring his father after he was exonerated. By the same token, the Duras family may have continued to use his name as an act of defiance against their own critics. Just because Klingon society declares someone disgraced doesn't mean his family has to agree.

It's all possible we got remember that in many ways the Klingon houses like medival noble houses or even the Ancient Roman houses, in essense culturally the Klingon Empire has more in common with medival or antiquity cultures then it has with 20th-21st century western cultures

I think there's a reason the Klingons loved Romeo and Juliet: because they could identify with it so easily!
In Romeo and Juliet, you have two great "houses" or "clans" fighting each other, the Montaques and the Capulets.
The Klingons divide themselves into clans and houses and most certainly fight with each other. R & J are a boy and a girl from "the wrong clan(s)" falling in love with each other, something I'm sure has probably happened in Klingon society a few times. And, Romeo and Juliet has a great ending: He dies, she dies, everyone dies-----a happy ending in Klingon society!

They commit suicide. Thats not a great death in klingon culture.

Crazedwraith wrote:They commit suicide. Thats not a great death in klingon culture.

Perhaps the Klingon version got tweaked a wee bit?

It wasn't Romeo and Juliet, it was Hamlet: honor above family, above king, above country.

Hamlet wrote:To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
the Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep.

Now for those of you who slept through sophomore English, this isn't a "woe is me, me so gothy" speech, it's about his next step: bring down the fucking kingdom of Denmark for honor. For his murdered father. For honor. And die doing it.

Klingons lap that shit up like it's gagh.

True. But TUC does imply they have the whole Shakespeare canon not just that one.

To be honest suicide to preserve honor is not only acceptble but outright demanded in Klingon culture.

Lord Revan wrote:To be honest suicide to preserve honor is not only acceptble but outright demanded in Klingon culture.

Yes but that's not what happens in R&J is it?

Crazedwraith wrote:True. But TUC does imply they have the whole Shakespeare canon not just that one.

One wonders how exactly that happened. Perhaps they searched the wreckage of some particularly literate Starfleet captain's quarters and found a Collected Plays? Glasnost-style cultural exchange?

Elheru Aran wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:True. But TUC does imply they have the whole Shakespeare canon not just that one.

One wonders how exactly that happened. Perhaps they searched the wreckage of some particularly literate Starfleet captain's quarters and found a Collected Plays? Glasnost-style cultural exchange?

Or First Contact wasn't the first visit to Earth by aliens.

Or the plays are in the Alpha Quadrant's DNA.... (seriously, why not?)

Crazedwraith wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:To be honest suicide to preserve honor is not only acceptble but outright demanded in Klingon culture.

Yes but that's not what happens in R&J is it?

IIRC no, but I just wanted to point out that suicide isn't always seen as dishonorble in klingon culture.

Khaat wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:True. But TUC does imply they have the whole Shakespeare canon not just that one.

One wonders how exactly that happened. Perhaps they searched the wreckage of some particularly literate Starfleet captain's quarters and found a Collected Plays? Glasnost-style cultural exchange?

Or First Contact wasn't the first visit to Earth by aliens.

Or the plays are in the Alpha Quadrant's DNA.... (seriously, why not?)

Actually if you're read the commentaries that line actually refers to similar line germans said in 19th (IIRC) century. Honestly I never got the impression Shakespearse's plays were particurally rare in 22nd-23rd century or that a Klingon couldn't have simply bought those from a UFP trader and then desided to translate them. Also it would be perfectly in character for klingons to not admit that something that wasn't made by a klingon got popular in the Klingon Empire.

Khaat wrote: Or First Contact wasn't the first visit to Earth by aliens.

Or the plays are in the Alpha Quadrant's DNA.... (seriously, why not?)

Well, we *know* the Vulcans were keeping tabs on Earth, if you take Enterprise into account (there's an episode where T'Pol tells the story of her grandmother getting stranded on Earth sometime in the 1930s or so). Wouldn't be surprised at all if there were other alien races hopping around, Enterprise does open with a random Klingon showing up and getting shotgunned by a farmer.

The latter... *sigh* it's up there with the sillier ideas of TNG. It could happen.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:True. But TUC does imply they have the whole Shakespeare canon not just that one.

One wonders how exactly that happened. Perhaps they searched the wreckage of some particularly literate Starfleet captain's quarters and found a Collected Plays? Glasnost-style cultural exchange?

Asked for them ?

It's not like anyone in the Federation would have any reason to say no. Especially if the Federation has anything equivalent to the internet.

It's cultural appropriation by the Klingons, guys. Same way that the Soviets claimed credit for a lot of inventions and stuff during the Cold War. Shakespeare probably got widely dispersed throughout the Alpha Quadrant during the Cold War, with copies eventually getting to the Klingons, and the Klingons claimed it as their own.

But, if you really want to examine it:

Part 1


Part 2

Elheru Aran wrote:

Khaat wrote: Or First Contact wasn't the first visit to Earth by aliens.

Or the plays are in the Alpha Quadrant's DNA.... (seriously, why not?)

Well, we *know* the Vulcans were keeping tabs on Earth, if you take Enterprise into account (there's an episode where T'Pol tells the story of her grandmother getting stranded on Earth sometime in the 1930s or so). Wouldn't be surprised at all if there were other alien races hopping around, Enterprise does open with a random Klingon showing up and getting shotgunned by a farmer.

The latter... *sigh* it's up there with the sillier ideas of TNG. It could happen.

That would be Carbon Creek, set in 1957 and it was her great-grandmother /nitpick

As I recall, during that dinner with general Chang they served Romulan Ale of all things...

The house of Duras has a centuries-long history of treachery and dishonour, they're like the Nistrim of the Klingon Empire- they'll happily hop in bed with the Romulans to further their own agenda.