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In this thread I look into the rationale behind the refit and subsequent abandonment of the Constitution class. Although it would be easier to simply say "Because Starfleet is stupid", it would not be nearly as fun.

Starfleet spent 18 months per ship (probably at least 10 such ships... I can't remember how many were destroyed in TOS) upgrading and refitting their Constitution class starships. Afterwards, the Enterprise was described (IIRC) as an "almost totally new ship".

In Search for Spock, which takes place directly after TWOK, Admiral Morrow says condescendingly "the Enterprise is over 20 years old! We feel her day is done."

Yet, the only newer ship we know of is the Excelsior, a prototype still untested. While it could be argued that Starfleet anticipated simply replacing the Enterprise with the Excelsior, then proceeding to phase out the Constitution class with the introduction of the Excelsior, it seems odd that Starfleet would have little use for a somewhat smaller ship class that would still be cheaper to produce and in greater quantities, given it's lesser size.

There are possible explanations. We don't know when the Constellation class was introduced; the Constellation might have been a replacement for the Constitution, and might even have been in production (yet unseen) during the movie era. This would explain how Picard's first command (Stargazer) was an "underpowered, overworked" ship, yet the Excelsiors were still around; being a replacement for the older, lesser Constitution (as well as probably being a short-lived testbed for a quadruple-nacelle design), they would become increasingly obsolecent while the larger and more capable Excelsiors would be ramped up in production and more readily upgraded over the years. (explaining the seemingly unending series of Excelsior starships still in service even into the Dominion War)

Another alternative is that the Constitution filled a niche that was not really there with the combination of Excelsiors and Mirandas. Although presumably the Constitution starships would have greater range and speed over the Mirandas (thanks to a greater internal volume, allowing for more supplies and fuel to be held and a larger reactor), they would in turn be eclipsed by the new Excelsiors, with an even greater volume and speed. Starfleet doctrine would probably have Mirandas serving as short to medium range ships with a more focused purpose (science vessels, or combat vessels) with the Excelsiors serving as the long range jack-of-all-trades ships with big guns and fast engines. Under this scenario, the Constitutions would probably just be worked until they became a significant maintenance expense.

Both scenarios still beg the question of why the Constutition fleet was ever upgraded in the first place, when they were slated to be phased out within a few years.

The best answer I have is that Starfleet, worried with the appearance of the Klingon Navy's new K'tinga class starships, were anxious to present the Klingons with a modern heavy cruiser design of their own. While they would soon become obsolete in the face of Starfleet's upcoming projects, they would match the K'tinga cruiser in the interim, shoring up what was otherwise probably fast becoming an embarrassingly obsolete ship class.

"The Enterprise is 20 years old," meaning "it's been twenty years since the Enterprise was upgraded in TMP!" The ship was already 40 years old when Kirk took over, so she's really 65 by the time STIII rolls around. That's plenty old.
The Excelsior-class is clearly far too large to be a heavy cruiser. She's a battleship (or space control ship, or what have you), and probably very expensive. I think that Enterprise (II) class ships remained in service for at least a decade or two after STVI. Indeed, I believe that the wreckage of one was spotted in the debris field at the Battle of Wolf 357, so they may still be in use well into the 24th century.

Currald wrote:Indeed, I believe that the wreckage of one was spotted in the debris field at the Battle of Wolf 357, so they may still be in use well into the 24th century.

The two constitutions at Wolf 359 were an even more upgraded ship than the Constitution. (II) They were designed with a wedge shaped engineering hull, two massive shuttlebays and other features.

In reality they were concept models for the abortive second series of TOS in the late seventies, featuring most of the original crew. They were designed by the same concept artist as the ISD. They were looking for any model they could smash up to make the debris field.

Incidentally the design was regected for being too far from the Ent-Nil.

"The Enterprise is 20 years old," meaning "it's been twenty years since the Enterprise was upgraded in TMP!" The ship was already 40 years old when Kirk took over, so she's really 65 by the time STIII rolls around. That's plenty old.

Errr...I don't think thats right, there is only ment to be a few years between the two films.

DocHorror wrote:

"The Enterprise is 20 years old," meaning "it's been twenty years since the Enterprise was upgraded in TMP!" The ship was already 40 years old when Kirk took over, so she's really 65 by the time STIII rolls around. That's plenty old.

Errr...I don't think thats right, there is only ment to be a few years between the two films.

http://www.trekmania.net/conference/chronology.htm

places TMP at 2271 and TWOK/TSFS at 2285, which jibes whith what I recall from the Encyclopedia. While those sources
are not canon,I think they jibe pretty well with what we saw, methinks.
Except that, assuming the lauch date of 2245 for the E-Nil, she would have been 40 for TSFS. Grr...

Anybody have any canon dates ??

EDITed for formatting (my preview feature needs glasses)

Hmmmm...okay, maybe Im wrong. But I was sure that there wasn't THAT much of a gap between the two movies.

BTW how long does Khan state that they had been marooned? That could help to give a time frame.

DocHorror wrote:Hmmmm...okay, maybe Im wrong. But I was sure that there wasn't THAT much of a gap between the two movies.

As I said, it's not canon, so it could be 100% wrong. But the crew DID look markedly older as compared to TMP, at least to me.

BTW how long does Khan state that they had been marooned? That could help to give a time frame.

Well, if IMDB is to be trusted:

http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0084726 wrote: Kirk: There's a man out there I haven't seen in 15 years who's trying to kill me. You show me a son that'd be happy to help. My son! My life that could have been... and wasn't. How do I feel? Old. Worn out.

15 years would make it 2283. Close enough, methinks.
And Kirk's comments regarding age would support a lot of time having passed since TMP, wehre none of this behavior was evident (that I can remember,anyway).

Crikey I didn't think the gap between films was so long, especially as Kirk wanted to get back his command. I didin't think it would have taken so long...

DocHorror wrote:Crikey I didn't think the gap between films was so long,

Actually, canonically, it needn't be. We have a 15 year gap between 'Space Seed' and TWOK. The gap between TWOK and TMP is still unknown.

especially as Kirk wanted to get back his command. I didin't think it would have taken so long...

Erm, I think you lost me there. Could you be bothered to elaborate?
Sorry for being so thick

All through TMP Kirk is driven to get back command of the Enterprise, he obviously loses it again before TWOK, since McCoy tells him to get it back before he really does grow old.



On the issue of 'Space seed' we need to workout how far into the five year mission this happened, then we can work out how much of a gap is between TMP & TWOK, since the TMP occurs only a few (3 to 5) year after the original five year mission ends.

DocHorror wrote:All through TMP Kirk is driven to get back command of the Enterprise, he obviously loses it again before TWOK, since McCoy tells him to get it back before he really does grow old.

Ah, okay. Thanx.

On the issue of 'Space seed' we need to workout how far into the five year mission this happened, then we can work out how much of a gap is between TMP & TWOK, since the TMP occurs only a few (3 to 5) year after the original five year mission ends.

Using http://www.trekmania.net/conference/chronology.htm again,
'Space Seed' happened in 2267*, and the mission ended in 2269.
This would place TMP in 2272 to 2274, still leaving a 8-10 year gap to TWOK.



*Which means TWOK takes place in 2282 and that I'm either too stupid to quote my own sources, or can't add worth shit. Take your pick

No, I think you are right. I just didn't realise it was such a large gap...

There's NO way to reconcile all of the dates properly. Trust me. And Okuda's Chronology? It's highly dubious. James Dixon's is much more carefully researched, though it includes a lot of non-canon items. WARNING: It's a REALLY big text file, over 1 MB. Dixon manages to take into account every dating cue except the "marooned for 15 years" line, which is more than Okuda bothers to do.

Currald wrote:There's NO way to reconcile all of the dates properly. Trust me. And Okuda's Chronology? It's highly dubious. James Dixon's is much more carefully researched, though it includes a lot of non-canon items. WARNING: It's a REALLY big text file, over 1 MB. Dixon manages to take into account every dating cue except the "marooned for 15 years" line, which is more than Okuda bothers to do.

Try over 3MB. I hate dialup.Still, thanx for the link.
Looks interesting.

Is it me, or is this a thread hijack in progress?

In other news, I'm now a Padawan Learner. YES!
That means at the going rate I'll be a Jedi Knight by 2005!!!!Woo-hoo!

I fully realize that the dates as said are rather irreconciliable, although I think fudging Morrow's remark to mean "over 20 years old" would go a ways to making more sense.

The Excelsior-class is clearly far too large to be a heavy cruiser. She's a battleship (or space control ship, or what have you), and probably very expensive. I think that Enterprise (II) class ships remained in service for at least a decade or two after STVI.

I'll get back to the Excelsior comments.

I certainly think that the Constitutions stayed in service for some time past ST 6, although I don't think any more were ever built.

Now for the Excelsior.

They may be too large/expensive to fully replace the Constitution fleet, although this could be contested, given the number of Excelsiors which see action even up to the Dominion War. (although admittedly they probably redesigned much of the interior while leaving the basic frame largely unaltered over the years, thus having an up-to-date starship being built over the years without having to design a new hull every time) However, this is probably where the Constellation comes in, serving as the intermediary starship between the Excelsiors and the Mirandas.

The Excelsior seems to have fallen into the role of light cruiser by the time of TNG. It's old, but extremely common.

...

I don't think it was a hijack, just a relevent diversion.

NecronLord wrote:

Currald wrote:Indeed, I believe that the wreckage of one was spotted in the debris field at the Battle of Wolf 357, so they may still be in use well into the 24th century.

The two constitutions at Wolf 359 were an even more upgraded ship than the Constitution. (II) They were designed with a wedge shaped engineering hull, two massive shuttlebays and other features.

In reality they were concept models for the abortive second series of TOS in the late seventies, featuring most of the original crew. They were designed by the same concept artist as the ISD. They were looking for any model they could smash up to make the debris field.

Incidentally the design was regected for being too far from the Ent-Nil.

Actually, they are not from that failed TV revival. They are study models done for PLANET OF THE TITANS, an aborted trek theatrical feature that fell through months before the ill-fated Phase II trek series was developed. This was the ship designed by Ralph McQuarrie and the film would have featured art direction by Bond and Kubrick vet Ken Adam, and Bond miniature guy Derek Meddings was doing the modelwork, with Jordan Belson doing special optical effects and Phil Kaufman directing.

The Enterprise built for the never-done TV series revival was very much like what they wound up with in TMP, but it is a little smaller and smoother, and it wasn't finished but instead abandoned when Robert Abel's art director convinced Paramount to junk it and the original drydock in favor of new more detailed and larger versions. As far as I know, while there is a pic of the unfinished model in that error-filled ART OF STAR TREK book, and several pics of the discarded drydock in the somewhat better PHASE II Book, the ship hasnt' really surfaced anywhere else (tho there is a rumor that Brick Price or somebody finished the model up awhile back, making it look more like the TMP ship, and that it is in a planet hollywood somewhere.)

NecronLord wrote:

Currald wrote:Indeed, I believe that the wreckage of one was spotted in the debris field at the Battle of Wolf 357, so they may still be in use well into the 24th century.

The two constitutions at Wolf 359 were an even more upgraded ship than the Constitution. (II) They were designed with a wedge shaped engineering hull, two massive shuttlebays and other features.

In reality they were concept models for the abortive second series of TOS in the late seventies, featuring most of the original crew. They were designed by the same concept artist as the ISD. They were looking for any model they could smash up to make the debris field.

Incidentally the design was regected for being too far from the Ent-Nil.

There was only one Constitution at Wolf-359 and it was un-changed.

Phase-2 model

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... model1.jpg

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... ematic.gif

Phase-2 in a TNG episode.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... alor02.jpg

Alyeska wrote:Phase-2 model

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... model1.jpg

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... ematic.gif

Phase-2 in a TNG episode.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/artic ... alor02.jpg

That is NOT from phase 2, it is from PLANET OF THE TITANS!

Geez, doesn't anybody have the old STARLOGs (#12 or so), you can see for yourself! The artwork featuring that ship design was published concurrent with Starlog's coverage of the unproduced PLANET OF THE TITANS.

Supporting documentation (showing Ken Adam sketches along the same lines of the McQuarrie renderings AND the study model) can be found in the PHASE 2 book AND in THE ART OF STAR TREK.

The McquarriePrise is NOT a phase 2 design!

Riiight. I am guilty of lumping all of the proto-TMP stuff into the category of "Phase II" myself. Kmart, don't you post over on trekbbs?

Currald wrote:Riiight. I am guilty of lumping all of the proto-TMP stuff into the category of "Phase II" myself. Kmart, don't you post over on trekbbs?

Not for a long while. I stopped posting before the end of last year, largely out of disgust with various 'tudes and biases there, and after that was limiting myself to sending Private Messages to select members.

Then a couple months ago, admin, in the form of Lisa, decided that I was misusing the forum and banned me, saying that PM only use is not proper member behavior. Of course that only happened AFTER I exchanged PMs with her -- and AFTER she had informed me that PM only posting was NOT an activity for which one could be banned. Very much in keeping with everything else there admin-wise, totally arbitrary.

I still keep in touch with GOD THING and JKTIM, and I post occasionally on starfarer.org and ilmfan.com , so the only thing I really miss from trekbbs is trading posts with PTROPE, who is somebody I sincerely hope 'breaks through' ... there's a genuine intelligence and talent present there, and if I were younger, I'd probably be trying to interest him in a collaboration, either a writing project or a zero budget film.

I still read trekbbs sometimes, and it amazes me how the same threads and the same misinformation keeps being circulated ... before I came here today, I saw a thread over there in GENERAL about What was the first CG ship on NextGen, and there is somebody over there who think the saucer sep in FARPOINT was CG!!! (if anybody here still bothers to post there, the answer to the question, 'what was the first cg starship on NextGen? is -- if you're discounting certain non Starfleet spacegoing things -- the E-D itself, briefly done as CGI in the 7th season show with the weird city inside the comet. Santa Barbara did the comet as CG and did a tiny Enterprise as CG as well.)

Ah, another Trek board exile finds his way to our humble community.

Hell, if they can hold an interesting conversation invite them here. New blood's always welcome.

Hey Alyeska, or anyone( ), why was there a K't'inga at Wolf 359? Was that TNG cap even Wolf 359?