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Was it ever explained in the series or the books why the Federation activly assisted the Cardassians agianst what were nominally their own people against a known agressor society?

Why didn't they hold their hands placatingly and go, "Hey, we'd sure love to help you but it's kinda your problem now, too bad." or something phrased more diplomatically whilst secretly supporting htem with the starfleet equivalent of Stinger missles ala the Soviet-Afghan War?

"What, these shoulder mounted surface-to-space torpedo launchers? Hey they totally attacked a federation starship, and stole them. Not our fault. But hey, you guys should be used to a pissed off rebel population, amrite?"

Do we know the details of the treaty sufficiently to answer this question reliably? Was their, for example, a provision that required both sides to enforce the treaty against violators?

I'd think that if the Federation has backed the Marquis under the table, the Obsidian Order would have found out, and it would likely have escalated to full-scale war.

Had they just sat it out, I doubt the Cardassians would have appreciated that its not their problem when its Federation citizens, including former Starfleet officers, that are fighting for the Marquis.

And, well... if I were a Marquis, I'd much rather be captured by the Federation than the Cardassians, if it came to that.

Of course, weather the treaty should have been made in the first place is another question altogether. But its pretty clear that early TNG-era Starfleet was not up to fighting a major war.

Edit: Because, frankly, the political will to outfit Starfleet for and direct them to fight such a war to the finish wasn't there.

edaw1982 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:32pm Was it ever explained in the series or the books why the Federation activly assisted the Cardassians agianst what were nominally their own people against a known agressor society?

Why didn't they hold their hands placatingly and go, "Hey, we'd sure love to help you but it's kinda your problem now, too bad." or something phrased more diplomatically whilst secretly supporting htem with the starfleet equivalent of Stinger missles ala the Soviet-Afghan War?

"What, these shoulder mounted surface-to-space torpedo launchers? Hey they totally attacked a federation starship, and stole them. Not our fault. But hey, you guys should be used to a pissed off rebel population, amrite?"

Mostly because, and this is supposition based on the events in DS9 seasons 3 and 4, that the Federation was doing it's darnedest to turn the Cardassians over to their way of thinking. Co-sponsored science missions, diplomatic treaties that gave the Bajorans their artifacts back, helping dissidents have a safe place in Federation territory, etc., which eventually lead to a Civilian revolution that put a civilian, not a military, government in charge of Cardassia. Then everything went to hell and the Klingons invaded due to Changeling influence and because they wanted to feel like they weren't the Federation's pets anymore.

It's a little hard to groom a government and it's people into Federation membership when one of your former allies starts bombing the crap out of them and invading them for the possibility of 'Dominion influence'. Which, ironically, led to the Dominion wiping out the Maquis and kicking out the Klingons so that Dukat could 'Make Cardassia great again'.

The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

That seems to be more or less the usual interpretation, at least around here, but I'm not sure that I buy it. It meshes too perfectly with the "cowardly pacifists" straw man of the UFP some of its detractors tend to employ.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:40pm

edaw1982 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:32pm Was it ever explained in the series or the books why the Federation activly assisted the Cardassians agianst what were nominally their own people against a known agressor society?

Why didn't they hold their hands placatingly and go, "Hey, we'd sure love to help you but it's kinda your problem now, too bad." or something phrased more diplomatically whilst secretly supporting htem with the starfleet equivalent of Stinger missles ala the Soviet-Afghan War?

"What, these shoulder mounted surface-to-space torpedo launchers? Hey they totally attacked a federation starship, and stole them. Not our fault. But hey, you guys should be used to a pissed off rebel population, amrite?"

Mostly because, and this is supposition based on the events in DS9 seasons 3 and 4, that the Federation was doing it's darnedest to turn the Cardassians over to their way of thinking. Co-sponsored science missions, diplomatic treaties that gave the Bajorans their artifacts back, helping dissidents have a safe place in Federation territory, etc., which eventually lead to a Civilian revolution that put a civilian, not a military, government in charge of Cardassia. Then everything went to hell and the Klingons invaded due to Changeling influence and because they wanted to feel like they weren't the Federation's pets anymore.

It's a little hard to groom a government and it's people into Federation membership when one of your former allies starts bombing the crap out of them and invading them for the possibility of 'Dominion influence'. Which, ironically, led to the Dominion wiping out the Maquis and kicking out the Klingons so that Dukat could 'Make Cardassia great again'.

So rather than being incompetent or cowardly, the Federation was actually playing a brilliant long-term diplomatic game, until the Dominion and Klingons ruined it?

Not sure I buy that entirely, but its an interesting take on the whole mess.

Edit: I like the idea that the Federation actually had a rational plan behind their actions, that it wasn't simply bungling or cowardice or "peace at any cost", but a reasonable plan that failed due to circumstances beyond their control.

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

I always got the impression that The Federation go if not exactly curb-stomped, at least had to make concessions in order to avoid a protracted costly war.
A sort of, "Sure Adolf Ho Chi Il-Sung, we'll just let you have this territory. We'll just sit over here and catch our breath, k'thanks."

Kinda like how the Klingons had to suck it up and go to the table with the Federation after Space-Chernobyl.

Space Chernobyl meant the Space Vikings had to play nice or cease to exist as a political power. The Federation/Cardassia thing was a minor border skirmish. How many episodes of TNG did it even pop up in?

Eddington's explanation -- and I can't quote it verbatim - makes the most sense; the almighty, PERFECT Federation, was monumentally ASSHURT, and JUST - COULDN'T - GET - OVER- THEMSELVES. HOW DARE these peasants LEAVE us!! Why indeed, couldn't the Federation just leave them alone? But no drama in THAT. And really, all it was , was SISKO the Almighty, being so fucking asshurt they let him get away with shit any other captain, I would literally have had CRUCIFIED.

That explanation only makes sense if you want to show the Federation in the worst possible light. This isn't the intention of the writers, clearly- DS9 showed the Federation as flaws, but not generally corrupt or dogmatic as a whole.

And, you know, its not like Eddington was an unbiased observer in that exchange. Of course it would suite him to portray the Federation in a way that would justify his opposition of them.

I think its better to try to find explanations that don't make the Federation look cartoonishly stupid or evil, where possible.

We have to remember that Cardassian Union/UFP war wasn't the the only conflict the federation was involved in. You have the Borg threat, Klingon Civil War and the return of the Romulan Star Empire into active interstellar politics.

All those need resources, so it could be that Cardassian war was ended in unfavorble terms not because UFP are cowards or stupid but rather the Cardassian war was something that Federation couldn't afford in the current political climate. Had there been a clearly friendly high chancellor at Qu'nos, friendly or at least indifferent preator at Romulus and last but certainly not least no looming Threat from Borg Collective, I suspect the Federation would have been less willing to accept the terms of peace treaty with Cardassia.

As for the Marquis I got the impression that Cardassian were treating the marquis as essentially starfleet forces without insignia as default so UFP was forced to oppose them to maintain the peace and save resources where they're needed.

in essense the marquis forced Starfleet/federation to waste resources making sure the cardassians didn't start another war when those resources were desperately needed elsewhere.

Burak Gazan wrote: ↑2017-09-15 11:27pm Eddington's explanation -- and I can't quote it verbatim - makes the most sense; the almighty, PERFECT Federation, was monumentally ASSHURT, and JUST - COULDN'T - GET - OVER- THEMSELVES. HOW DARE these peasants LEAVE us!! Why indeed, couldn't the Federation just leave them alone? But no drama in THAT. And really, all it was , was SISKO the Almighty, being so fucking asshurt they let him get away with shit any other captain, I would literally have had CRUCIFIED.

Luckily, it is possible to have the conversation verbatim:

EDDINGTON [on monitor]: Captain.
SISKO: Mister Eddington. I have just one question. Why?
EDDINGTON [on monitor]: Will knowing my personal motivation change anything at this point?
SISKO: No, I don't suppose it will.
EDDINGTON [on monitor]: Then let's table that for now. The only reason I've contacted you is to ask you to leave us alone. Our quarrel is with the Cardassians, not the Federation. Leave us alone and I can promise you you'll never hear from the Maquis again.
SISKO: Unless you see another shipment you want to hijack.
EDDINGTON [on monitor]: You keep sending replicators to Cardassia and you're going to have a lot more to worry about than hijackings.
SISKO: I don't respond well to threats. I thought you would know that by now. But I'm beginning to see that you don't know me at all.
EDDINGTON [on monitor]: I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed about the Maquis? We've never harmed you, and yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it.

Keep in mind that this was after the military government that established the DMZ with the Federation has already fallen, and it's the civilian government in charge of Cardassia. Eddington is saying that A, the UFP is mad that colonists are leaving it, and B, that the UFP is trying to get Cardassia to join the Federation. By this point, the Maquis could have come to the table with the Cardassians, but never did, and instead, wanted total victory in the DMZ.

Keeping in mind that Eddington's mindset, at least according to "For the Uniform", is that he's the poor underdog hero, Val Jean, and that the Federation and Sisko in particular is Javert, a ruthless inquisitor who ruins lives and places in order to get his man.

We should remember that Eddington isn't even close to unbiased source as TRR and FaxModem1 have pointed out he wants to see himself as the underdog hero and everyone else as the big bad trying to oppress him so of course he would see the Federation as pure and absolute evil for trying to make peace with Cardassia rather then nuking Cardassia from Orbit then hunting down any surviving cardassians as that fits his narative of him being the good guy and everyone who thinks overwise are pure evil.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:56pmSo rather than being incompetent or cowardly, the Federation was actually playing a brilliant long-term diplomatic game, until the Dominion and Klingons ruined it?

Not sure I buy that entirely, but its an interesting take on the whole mess.

Edit: I like the idea that the Federation actually had a rational plan behind their actions, that it wasn't simply bungling or cowardice or "peace at any cost", but a reasonable plan that failed due to circumstances beyond their control.

As Lord Revan notes, the UFP was also busy with other problems. Borg, Romulans, Klingon Civil War, Dominion, a scare with the Tzenkethi, etc.

The real question is what would have happened if the Dominion hadn't had contact with the Federation. Would Cardassia have become a vassal of the Klingons? Would there have been a civilian revolution without the Obsidian Order's decapitation by the Dominion? Would they have allied with the UFP? Would they have petitioned for eventual Federation membership? etc.

I think the Dominion sped up some parts of what was going to happen, and delayed others. The Cardassians were going to eventually have a revolution, the writing was on the wall, and the loss of Bajor only exacerbated it. Free thinkers were becoming more common, and among the Legates, there was someone leading the Underground movement. The Obsidian Order was the main obstacle to any kind of revolution, but their utter decimation by the Dominion cleared the way. Less than a year later, and the military government is gone. Shame that Gowron wanted to bolster his image, and had Changeling-Martok whispering in his ear.

Without that, I imagine that Cardassia's military government and the Obsidian order would have slowly lost control, and the Federation would be in prime position to pick up the pieces and rebuild.

Heck, since this thread is including EU material, in STO and the novel-verse, Cardassia is being rebuilt with Federation aid, and is very much in the style of a Federation style power, having free elections, free press, etc. Novel-wise, they even become members of the Khitomer Accords, joining the Federation, the Klingons, and the Ferengi in a NATO-like organization against more repressive regimes like the Romulan Empire, the Breen, and the Tholians who formed the Typhon Pact, a 24th century version of the Warsaw Pact, formed in response to the Federation's growing power.

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

I remember one of the admirals telling Picard that the two sides engaged in land swaps. It wasn't clear how much each side gave up.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:40pm Mostly because, and this is supposition based on the events in DS9 seasons 3 and 4, that the Federation was doing it's darnedest to turn the Cardassians over to their way of thinking. Co-sponsored science missions, diplomatic treaties that gave the Bajorans their artifacts back, helping dissidents have a safe place in Federation territory, etc., which eventually lead to a Civilian revolution that put a civilian, not a military, government in charge of Cardassia. Then everything went to hell and the Klingons invaded due to Changeling influence and because they wanted to feel like they weren't the Federation's pets anymore.

It's a little hard to groom a government and it's people into Federation membership when one of your former allies starts bombing the crap out of them and invading them for the possibility of 'Dominion influence'. Which, ironically, led to the Dominion wiping out the Maquis and kicking out the Klingons so that Dukat could 'Make Cardassia great again'.

That's actually an interesting interpretation of it. The war was a blow for the legitimacy of the military government of Cardassian because it cost them economically (I remember they had to loot archaelogical treasures and sell them to help fund the war) without a clear victory. Nor an achievement they could really brag about to their people since the two sides engaged in land swaps while the Marquis kept on fighting. From their perspective, the UFP could sit back and enjoy the fruits of peace while the Cardassians still continued fighting with the UFP engaged in half arse attempts to capture Marquis. This set the stage for the civilian take over to a government which is most likely less hostile towards the Federation.

In any event, after the events of the Dominion war the cardassians truly became what Gul Dukat feared, a third rate power. And if Star Trek online is any indication, they still haven't really recovered.

Enforcing the treaty had to be joint or co-operative. You'll remember it was a DeMilitarized Zone, after all...
Now, my snark aside....

As Federation citizens, the Marqi were bound by Federation law. Taking up arms was a violation of that law. Therefore, the Marqi are all criminals. Justified in there paranoia or not, they were criminals.

Starfleet enforcement against the Marqi, however, was questionable. No doubt this was partially because there were probably sympathizers in Starfleet that were feeding the Marqi information. i.e "Hey, the Enterprise is going to be in Sector 314 looking for Marqi activity for the next 3 months, better lay low."

If the Dominion never showed up, I would suspect that the new Civilian Government that arose on Cardassia would either be quickly replaced by or, much more likely, made puppets by a resurgent Enabrin Tain, who apparently wasn't taking his retirement too well from the Obsidian Order, and would probably have seen the Civilian Government as some new threat to his way of life to engage, rather than an existential threat like the Dominion.

And I think that as long as Tain, or at least the Order remained, Cardassia would never be allowed to be absorbed into the Federation. The Maquis were doomed from the start.

edaw1982 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:32pm Was it ever explained in the series or the books why the Federation activly assisted the Cardassians agianst what were nominally their own people against a known agressor society?

To keep the peace

The Maquis were on the Cardassian side of the DMZ, Central Command was claiming that the Maquis were being aided by the Federation (and ex-starfleet defections..not helping.)

If the Federation did nothing, The Cardassians would dissolve the treaty...and Starfleet was still reeling from Wolf359

Central Command knew that the Federation was in a weak place for the short term, the favorable terms for the DMZ illustrated that, they felt they could press things to their advantage....The Maquis were a happy happenstance.

Ultimately it backfired, The Federation was so desperate for peace it turned on it's own, the effort to frame Cardassia as the victim gave the Maquis too wide a berth, and the window closed.

mr friendly guy wrote: ↑2017-09-16 11:31am

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

I remember one of the admirals telling Picard that the two sides engaged in land swaps. It wasn't clear how much each side gave up.

I wonder if the Cardassian colonies that ended up on the "federation side" of the border being ok with the territory swap is giving us a false image that the Federation folded and was only one making territorial consessions. Though we know of at least 1 major cardassian system they lost in the war even if said system didn't join UFP, mainly Bajor, while it wasn't outright stated I suspect that "pull out of Bajor" was part of the peace treaty.

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

Cardassian War veterans like Picard and O'Brien don't talk about it like that, though. I suspect that there were exchanges of territory on both sides to "regularize" the borders. It may well be that the zones of Cardassian and Federation settlement had actually interpenetrated, so that there was no way to draw a coherent border in space without relocating some of the colonists.

edaw1982 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 10:08pm

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

I always got the impression that The Federation go if not exactly curb-stomped, at least had to make concessions in order to avoid a protracted costly war.
A sort of, "Sure Adolf Ho Chi Il-Sung, we'll just let you have this territory. We'll just sit over here and catch our breath, k'thanks."

Well yes, but it doesn't seem as though the Cardassians got out of it without making concessions themselves. In the immediate aftermath of the war, they abandoned Bajor, they agreed to demilitarize a bunch of planets on their border where they could have set up outposts. The first episode in which the Cardies appear directly has this for a plot, combined with a rogue Federation captain who can't put the war behind him.

To me that sounds a lot like the famous "cease fire in place" type of end to a war, possibly accompanied by some territory swaps and mutually negotiated demilitarized zones.

Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-09-18 12:01am "regularize"

Regulate?

edaw1982 wrote: ↑2017-09-15 10:08pm

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

I always got the impression that The Federation go if not exactly curb-stomped, at least had to make concessions in order to avoid a protracted costly war.
A sort of, "Sure Adolf Ho Chi Il-Sung, we'll just let you have this territory. We'll just sit over here and catch our breath, k'thanks."

Kinda like how the Klingons had to suck it up and go to the table with the Federation after Space-Chernobyl.

No, god no.

Ok, think of it like this. The UFP was fighting this war throughout the entire run of TNG. Their flagship never got involved in hostilities. They Dealt with a Klingon Civil War, a resurgent Romulan Star Empire, all that shit; and they never put their economy on a war footing. The war was literally never mentioned until the tail end of the series, and O'Brien fought in it prior to the series.

That war, if you actually listen to Madred in Chain of Command, caused the Cardassian economy to completely collapse, and eventually lead to the downfall of the military Junta in DS9 and its replacement by a civilian government.

You know what that tells me? It tells me that the UFP fought the interstellar child that is the Cardassian Union with one hand. Basically put its proverbial hand on the forehead of Cardassia and let it flail away impotently until it drove itself to exhaustion then said "Ok. Are you ready to play nice?"

The Federation-Tzenkethi War was around the same time as well.

Basically it was dragging on (it did last over a decade, I think almost two), but the Federation was breaking their economy with a mere holding effort. The Federation made concessions because (1) it'd end the war and it was causing damage (and the total collapse of the Cardassians would cause chaos- as is was enough for a political collapse), (2) it really wasn't Federation-Federation territory to begin with, just claimed by humans-of-Federation-origin, and (3) a messy border pretty much ensures a future conflict. If the Marquis had actually moved, it'd have been a nice solution- and while I don't want to come across as saying it should be the right of governments to move around marginalized people, the fact that the Federation can and would have moved them to actual new nice uncontested colony planets (and the lack of apparent end-game for the Marquis outside of maybe trying to force the Federation to seize more territory?) does make the Marquis cause seem pretty iffy to me.

Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-09-18 12:01am

Batman wrote: ↑2017-09-15 09:53pm The general impression I got from TNG/DS9 was there was a war, and the Federation won...only to give up all the territory the war was over to the Cardassians.

Cardassian War veterans like Picard and O'Brien don't talk about it like that, though. I suspect that there were exchanges of territory on both sides to "regularize" the borders. It may well be that the zones of Cardassian and Federation settlement had actually interpenetrated, so that there was no way to draw a coherent border in space without relocating some of the colonists.

/quote]

Prometheus Unbound wrote: ↑2017-10-12 01:22pm

Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-09-18 12:01am "regularize"

Regulate?

No, "regularize," as in to make normal, neat, geometrically "regular" as opposed to "irregular."

Highly irregular borders are often a source of conflict between nation-states. It creates situations where people can't reach an outpost of their own country's territory without passing through another country. Where only historical accident and not a negotiated agreement determines who controls which chunks of the ground.

If the UFP and Cardassian Union had been fighting a skirmishing war for 10-20 years, it's likely that each side would hold many planets just by virtue of having successfully seized those planets by force, or through historical accident like "we needed to occupy this specific dilithium mine to keep it out of enemy hands."

When you agree to stop fighting and just accept the borders right where they are, that can cause postwar tension. The obvious counter-strategy is to have a summit conference and shuffle things around. Take some of the dangerously overexposed planets you captured from the enemy deep in their territory, and swap them for the planets the enemy holds as a bridgehead in your territory.

Thus, the borders become more "regular."

This kind of process is often involved in the creation of situations like the Maquis. Federation colonists built colonies on worlds "far forward" near Cardassian space, and during the war Starfleet was mostly able to protect those colonies. But after the war, the Federation needed to give up that dangerously exposed blob of space, in exchange for the Cardassians withdrawing from a blob of space where they were exposed (say, the volume immediately around Bajor?)

Out of idle curiosity. Are there any comparable situations in IRL history?

One that comes to mind (sort of) is the French left in Canada after the French-Indian War, but I don't really know enough about that to say it's similar.

Alyrium Denryle wrote: ↑2017-10-12 01:37pmNo, god no.

Ok, think of it like this. The UFP was fighting this war throughout the entire run of TNG. Their flagship never got involved in hostilities. They Dealt with a Klingon Civil War, a resurgent Romulan Star Empire, all that shit; and they never put their economy on a war footing. The war was literally never mentioned until the tail end of the series, and O'Brien fought in it prior to the series.

Uh, the war end a year before The Wounded, a season four episode. A treaty was signed, which created the Federation-Cardassian Alliance.

There were incidents afterwards, but it was clearly peacetime.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-10-12 04:22pm Out of idle curiosity. Are there any comparable situations in IRL history?

One that comes to mind (sort of) is the French left in Canada after the French-Indian War, but I don't really know enough about that to say it's similar.

The impression I got was that it was akin to a space-Vietnam war. The Federation was more conventionally powerful, but still couldn't outright "win" without either a massive and costly deployment. Then nobody liked the peace.