Spacedock sized Starbases

[Alyeska]

Well, just how many of these exist in the Federation? Well we know there is up to Starbase 718. Given the numbering sequence for ships and the sort, I think it is safe to assume the Federation indeed has at least this many. I also think its safe to assume that most of these stations still exist and aren't just old ones that got retired. Starbase 12 has been mentioned in TNG.

Anyway, how many of the Spacedock style stations exist? We know there was the original Spacedock which just so happens to not be a Starbase. We also know of Starbase 74 which was of the larger Spacedock design that can allow Galaxy class ships to enter.

Well, I had found several more.

Lya Station Alpha. Shown in TNG Ensign Ro, we have the Enterprise-D for size comparison, it is the larger design.

Starbase 84. Shown in both TNG Heart and Glory and TNG Phantasms. Again the Enterprise-D shows the station to be the larger design.

Starbase 133. Reuse of the Lya Station Alpha shot, same size as the rest.

Thats 4 such stations. We have a fifth. In TNG Booby Trap Geordi runs a simulation in the holodeck with Utopia Plantia. In it we see the USS Galaxy inside of another Spacedock.

Thats now 5 of these stations. We only have one confirmed existance of the old Spacedock and 5 of the larger versions. We also know that 2 of the five aren't even Starbases. Using the Starbase sampling alone we can scale up from the known planetary bases and other bases and get almost 100 of the spacedocks. Then with all the other bases and there being still more spacedocks. I would not be surprised if the Federation had near 100 of the larger spacedocks.

[Ajaz50]

Thouse floating ship construction thingies (Drydocks are what I belive they are called) are conted in the Starbase numbering sequince. They arn't armed, or shelded or have propoltion

[Alyeska]

Thouse floating ship construction thingies (Drydocks are what I belive they are called) are conted in the Starbase numbering sequince. They arn't armed, or shelded or have propoltion

Care to show me an example? I do not ever recall any of the construction facilities ever getting a Starbase designation.

[Darth Wong]

Some of the starbases are just tiny outposts on planetary surfaces, Alyeska. We saw one like that in TOS.

[Alyeska]

Some of the starbases are just tiny outposts on planetary surfaces, Alyeska. We saw one like that in TOS.

I know that. And as I said you can use the sampling we have and scale that up to 700 and your probably going to get close to 100 Starbases. Sure its not accurate, but it does show how many they could have because of how many bases they have total.

[Ajaz50]

Its out there somewhere.

Yea a lot of starbases don't have weponry. Some starbases (like the one in Trobble w/tribbles) are mearly trading posts.

[Alyeska]

Its out there somewhere.

Yea a lot of starbases don't have weponry. Some starbases (like the one in Trobble w/tribbles) are mearly trading posts.

I know that. Infact the Spacedocks might not even be armed.

[Darth Wong]

Some of the starbases are just tiny outposts on planetary surfaces, Alyeska. We saw one like that in TOS.

I know that. And as I said you can use the sampling we have and scale that up to 700 and your probably going to get close to 100 Starbases. Sure its not accurate, but it does show how many they could have because of how many bases they have total.

It could be GROSSLY inaccurate. You're assuming that the systems we see are indicative of the entire population, even though most of that starbase population is probably in remote areas and what we see tends to be in hot spots.

[Alyeska]

Some of the starbases are just tiny outposts on planetary surfaces, Alyeska. We saw one like that in TOS.

I know that. And as I said you can use the sampling we have and scale that up to 700 and your probably going to get close to 100 Starbases. Sure its not accurate, but it does show how many they could have because of how many bases they have total.

It could be GROSSLY inaccurate. You're assuming that the systems we see are indicative of the entire population, even though most of that starbase population is probably in remote areas and what we see tends to be in hot spots.

IIRC two of the Spacedocks were located in no-name systems. They were major only because of the base, not because of the planet or its core location.

[Sea Skimmer]

I don't see what they'd need 100 of the things for in any case. Assuming they have 8000 starships, and each one needs to spend a noticeable amount of time inside having work done every five years, they'd only be servicing 16 ships per dock per year. Even if each swung by for work every year that's only 80 ships per dock per year or the whole of 6-7 per month.

I simply can't see why they'd need so many massive installations to maintain so few starships, the resources would be better put into building more ships or larger secondary installations which could be reached quicker.

Its far more likely that those massive docks number in the single or low double digits.

[Darth Wong]

IIRC two of the Spacedocks were located in no-name systems. They were major only because of the base, not because of the planet or its core location.

They were located in the core areas of the Federation, where the prominent ships spend all their time. In the outlying areas where it takes months just to arrive, they need starbases for refueling and other purposes, yet I seriously doubt they would build large spacedock-type installations.

[Alyeska]

I don't see what they'd need 100 of the things for in any case. Assuming they have 8000 starships, and each one needs to spend a noticeable amount of time inside having work done every five years, they'd only be servicing 16 ships per dock per year. Even if each swung by for work every year that's only 80 ships per dock per year or the whole of 6-7 per month.

I simply can't see why they'd need so many massive installations to maintain so few starships, the resources would be better put into building more ships or larger secondary installations which could be reached quicker.

Its far more likely that those massive docks number in the single or low double digits.

In the single digits? You think that the Enterprise-D just so happened to visit almost every single one of them? We already know that the Federation has over 700 starbases. They need a fair number of bases because of the spread nature of the Federation itself.

[Gandalf]

Thouse floating ship construction thingies (Drydocks are what I belive they are called) are conted in the Starbase numbering sequince. They arn't armed, or shelded or have propoltion

Care to show me an example? I do not ever recall any of the construction facilities ever getting a Starbase designation.

In 'Parallels' a Starbase whose number I cannot recall is mentioned as a Federation ship building facility.

[Eleas]

Well, just how many of these exist in the Federation? Well we know there is up to Starbase 718. Given the numbering sequence for ships and the sort, I think it is safe to assume the Federation indeed has at least this many. I also think its safe to assume that most of these stations still exist and aren't just old ones that got retired. Starbase 12 has been mentioned in TNG.

I like all your suppositions except the first. You don't know the amount of space facilities compared to ground bases, and you don't know how many have been retired or destroyed by hostile incursions. These are three unknowns that IMHO will skew your calculations pretty severely.

[Alyeska]

Well, just how many of these exist in the Federation? Well we know there is up to Starbase 718. Given the numbering sequence for ships and the sort, I think it is safe to assume the Federation indeed has at least this many. I also think its safe to assume that most of these stations still exist and aren't just old ones that got retired. Starbase 12 has been mentioned in TNG.

I like all your suppositions except the first. You don't know the amount of space facilities compared to ground bases, and you don't know how many have been retired or destroyed by hostile incursions. These are three unknowns that IMHO will skew your calculations pretty severely.

I make the statement that it is extremely unlikely that any station has truly been retired. We are seeing TWOK era stations still used (in some cases just the design). I point out that some of the largest stations are not even approaching the 100s. Last of all I point out the lowest number the Enterprise-D ever mentioned was below 20 (all numbers below that were TOS only). I think its safe to assume that most of the 700+ stations are indeed there.

[Eleas]

I make the statement that it is extremely unlikely that any station has truly been retired. We are seeing TWOK era stations still used (in some cases just the design). I point out that some of the largest stations are not even approaching the 100s. Last of all I point out the lowest number the Enterprise-D ever mentioned was below 20 (all numbers below that were TOS only). I think its safe to assume that most of the 700+ stations are indeed there.

Yeah. But there have been a number of wars, some of them rather large. Stations, being vital to the Federation's ability to project power, would be a prime target. It seems to me you're kinda assuming such losses were negible, and without proof.

Look at B5, for example. How many Babylon stations are left by the time of the series?

[Alyeska]

I make the statement that it is extremely unlikely that any station has truly been retired. We are seeing TWOK era stations still used (in some cases just the design). I point out that some of the largest stations are not even approaching the 100s. Last of all I point out the lowest number the Enterprise-D ever mentioned was below 20 (all numbers below that were TOS only). I think its safe to assume that most of the 700+ stations are indeed there.

Yeah. But there have been a number of wars, some of them rather large. Stations, being vital to the Federation's ability to project power, would be a prime target. It seems to me you're kinda assuming such losses were negible, and without proof.

Look at B5, for example. How many Babylon stations are left by the time of the series?

I find it highly unlikely that the Cardassians (the only war between TNG and TOS) destroyed all that many starbases. The Cardassian ships were inferior to the Federation and the only reason the war continued was because the Federation seemingly faught a defensive war the whole time. Now, I do agree they probably lost several in the Dominion War. Its a logical target for the Dominion. Furthermore, the Dominion did strike some important Federation targets and they likely had starbases near them as well.

[Eleas]

I find it highly unlikely that the Cardassians (the only war between TNG and TOS) destroyed all that many starbases. The Cardassian ships were inferior to the Federation and the only reason the war continued was because the Federation seemingly faught a defensive war the whole time. Now, I do agree they probably lost several in the Dominion War. Its a logical target for the Dominion. Furthermore, the Dominion did strike some important Federation targets and they likely had starbases near them as well.

Then we are in agreement. I guess we could always make a guesstimate as to the number of starbases contra ground-based outposts and then build from there?

[Alyeska]

I find it highly unlikely that the Cardassians (the only war between TNG and TOS) destroyed all that many starbases. The Cardassian ships were inferior to the Federation and the only reason the war continued was because the Federation seemingly faught a defensive war the whole time. Now, I do agree they probably lost several in the Dominion War. Its a logical target for the Dominion. Furthermore, the Dominion did strike some important Federation targets and they likely had starbases near them as well.

Then we are in agreement. I guess we could always make a guesstimate as to the number of starbases contra ground-based outposts and then build from there?

That is what I was going after with my line of reasoning. Hell, we can just compare the super massive bases to the already known bases to get a figure.

Ok, ST:E lists 67 known bases. Of those 67 we know that there are three of the large space docks. Thats 3/67 for a figure of 4.5%. Lets multiply that by the 713 known starbases. Thats 32 of the massive space docks that a Galaxy class can enter. Throw in that we know of another two that aren't even listed as Starbases (Station Aya, Utopia Planitia station). I could see ~50 of these stations.

[Eleas]

That is what I was going after with my line of reasoning. Hell, we can just compare the super massive bases to the already known bases to get a figure.

Ok, ST:E lists 67 known bases. Of those 67 we know that there are three of the large space docks. Thats 3/67 for a figure of 4.5%. Lets multiply that by the 713 known starbases. Thats 32 of the massive space docks that a Galaxy class can enter. Throw in that we know of another two that aren't even listed as Starbases (Station Aya, Utopia Planitia station). I could see ~50 of these stations.

Doesn't sound too unreasonable, I suppose. I think I'll use those number in an upcoming fanfic, assuming I ever finish the story I'm currently writing.

[Alyeska]

That is what I was going after with my line of reasoning. Hell, we can just compare the super massive bases to the already known bases to get a figure.

Ok, ST:E lists 67 known bases. Of those 67 we know that there are three of the large space docks. Thats 3/67 for a figure of 4.5%. Lets multiply that by the 713 known starbases. Thats 32 of the massive space docks that a Galaxy class can enter. Throw in that we know of another two that aren't even listed as Starbases (Station Aya, Utopia Planitia station). I could see ~50 of these stations.

Doesn't sound too unreasonable, I suppose. I think I'll use those number in an upcoming fanfic, assuming I ever finish the story I'm currently writing.

Just a few things to remember. The Federation has two other *large" starbases that are space stations. The first looks very much like the Regula station, except its missing the lower portion. This station docks ships on the outside, although it seems to have a docking bay it could use to bring two or three ships inside. The other station is the much larger Spacedock style from ST3. While smaller than its newer cousin (the one that can fit Galaxy's), its still quite large and can still fit quite a few of the newer destroyer type ships (Steamrunner, Norway, Defiant, etc) and probably Intrepid class ships. Of these two types of stations it is unknown how many exist. Presumably there are more of the over sized regula type then of the largest space dock. Of the smaller space dock there are probably fewer than either of the other two (to account for none being seen in TNG time).

My guestimate would be as follows.

32 of the large space docks used as Starbases, another 13 assorted ones used in ship yards or other stations. That totals 45.

Lets throw out a reasonable number of 75 Oversized Regula type stations. Pure guess, but it seems reasonable because these are smaller stations than either Spacedock type.

8 "small" spacedock type stations of the ST3 design as Starbases (all of these would be numbered below Starbase 50) and 4 others used for different stations (such as Spacedock 1, the ST3 statino which the DS9 TM states is still at Earth)

From there you have hundreds upon hundreds of planetary starbases and probably a hundred or so Regula sized stations.

Some of this is pure guestimate, some is based on samples from what we have seen. Anyway, thats what I would estimate the Federation to have for space stations. There are still MORE random stations out there we know next to nothing about. Deepspace Nine and Jupiter Station are just samples of some of the stations that aren't on the Starfleet or Federation numbering scheme.

[Jeremy]

I find it highly unlikely that the Cardassians (the only war between TNG and TOS) destroyed all that many starbases.

That is the only war inbetween the two series pitting the UFP against another major power--that we know about. If I recall my TNG correctly, they have had several skirmeshes with many of the smaller nations that exist in Federation space. Remember the UFP claims large swaths of territory and then sends Star Fleet out to conquer/civilize this area. This seen in TOS where the UFP sends a diplomat with the Enterprise to forcibly open contact with two nations that were in a computer war, much the same way the Commodore Perry opened Japan to 'the West'. Couple this with their disasterous science experiments, ie the problems with the Omega Particle, and one can make a good assumption that the Federation has lost quite a few star bases/space stations/outposts/whatever you want to call them.

Tell me where I'm wrong.

[Sea Skimmer]

In the single digits? You think that the Enterprise-D just so happened to visit almost every single one of them? We already know that the Federation has over 700 starbases. They need a fair number of bases because of the spread nature of the Federation itself.

Given that the E-D managed to visit just about every boarder of the Federation and many of its core planets I don't see why not.

[Alyeska]

I find it highly unlikely that the Cardassians (the only war between TNG and TOS) destroyed all that many starbases.

That is the only war inbetween the two series pitting the UFP against another major power--that we know about. If I recall my TNG correctly, they have had several skirmeshes with many of the smaller nations that exist in Federation space. Remember the UFP claims large swaths of territory and then sends Star Fleet out to conquer/civilize this area. This seen in TOS where the UFP sends a diplomat with the Enterprise to forcibly open contact with two nations that were in a computer war, much the same way the Commodore Perry opened Japan to 'the West'. Couple this with their disasterous science experiments, ie the problems with the Omega Particle, and one can make a good assumption that the Federation has lost quite a few star bases/space stations/outposts/whatever you want to call them.

Tell me where I'm wrong.

You cite vague examples at best. Do you even have proof that it was a Starbase lost and not just a science base?

[Jeremy]

Yes I do have vague examples. I will try to clear them up but I can't get much better, sorry.

In the Voyager episode that discusses the Omega Particle Captain Janeway says that a scientist was working on the particle and a horrible accident occured damaging a large amount of space. I believe she said that he was working with the Omega Particle on a space station. I was also under the impression that he was doing this in a Star Fleet space station. Though this could not be the case.

Does that help any?