The Borg versus the Dominion

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-24 05:02am

I always thought that this would have made a much better ending to DS9. Instead of a war between the Dominion and Federation, we should have seen the Dominion come through the worm hole and ask a suspicious Sisko for help because the Borg decided to invade. That would have beem cool.

I wonder if the Borg could assimilate a Founder.

Equinox2003 · Post by **Equinox2003** » 2003-04-24 05:24am

I do not know if a Founder could be assimilated, the Borg would have to
catch one first. A Founder could just change into a bird and fly away.
A Borg-Dominion war does sound cool.
My guess is that the Federation would aid the Dominion, to help get
rid of the Borg. I doubt the Federation would like working with the
Dominion, but it would be needed, if they want to get rid of the
Borg bad enough.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-24 05:27am

If the Borg could find one, they would probably use their transporters to beam it into some sort of containment chaimber where it could be assimilated. Or, at least, they could try. That would be interesting; watching the Borg literally dissect a Founder in order to learn about it and then try to assimilate it.

They would definately need to incapacitate it somehow.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-04-24 07:16am

The Obsidian Order had a device that pervented Odo from changing shape. That should be reproducable (by the TNG borg anyway)

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-04-24 08:00am

I think the Dominion would be able to hold the Borg away as long they use raw firepower. If Dominion uses 1.200 ships for each cube, firepower wont be a problem (First Contact). Then we have raming tacticts and willing to blow up stars. I think the Dominion will outlast the Borg since they only send one cube at the time.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-04-24 08:01am

That's not true. The borg send however many cubes are neccessery. Scorpion and Dark frontier feature multi cube attacks.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-04-24 08:06am

NecronLord wrote:That's not true. The borg send however many cubes are neccessery. Scorpion and Dark frontier feature multi cube attacks.

Perhaps it was because it was close to Borg territory, they could send more ships?
Why only send one cube to assimilate Federation?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-24 09:31am

Equinox2003 wrote:I do not know if a Founder could be assimilated, the Borg would have to
catch one first. A Founder could just change into a bird and fly away.

Aside from that, what would happen to the cybernetic implants when the assimilated Founder changes shape?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-04-24 02:26pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Equinox2003 wrote:I do not know if a Founder could be assimilated, the Borg would have to
catch one first. A Founder could just change into a bird and fly away.
Aside from that, what would happen to the cybernetic implants when the assimilated Founder changes shape?

How cud u get a founder to wear the implants in the first place? Maybe they'll have to use Fc/voy nanoprobe assimiltation with out the end full blown surgery we see in BoBW

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-04-26 02:00am

Dark Primus wrote:
NecronLord wrote:That's not true. The borg send however many cubes are neccessery. Scorpion and Dark frontier feature multi cube attacks.
Perhaps it was because it was close to Borg territory, they could send more ships?
Why only send one cube to assimilate Federation?

Oh please. In Best of Both Worlds, the Federation was minutes from total defeat at the hands of one cube that waltzed through everything the Federation could throw at it. Why should they have thought they couldn't do so again with another cube? Another cube, mind you, that came close to doing just that.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-04-26 02:35am

I think that the Dominion should be able to repel an invasion a lot quicker than the Federation ever did. As they are proven to have had "impressive" ship building capabilities (Acc to General Martok).
Also their ships appear to be faster than the Klingon standard, though this is less than the Federation standard.
Finally, most Vorta/Jem' Hadar don't care if they live or die, leading to lots of ramming.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-04-26 07:48am

Uraniun235 wrote:
Dark Primus wrote:
NecronLord wrote:That's not true. The borg send however many cubes are neccessery. Scorpion and Dark frontier feature multi cube attacks.
Perhaps it was because it was close to Borg territory, they could send more ships?
Why only send one cube to assimilate Federation?
Oh please. In Best of Both Worlds, the Federation was minutes from total defeat at the hands of one cube that waltzed through everything the Federation could throw at it. Why should they have thought they couldn't do so again with another cube? Another cube, mind you, that came close to doing just that.

Yes, and in First Contact the 30-40 ships that was left of the Fed fleet could still cause huge damages to the cube showing that FIREPOWER was all they needed to bring the cube down. What do you think a large Dominion fleet would do to one cube if firepower that all is needed?
There wont be much of cube left after the Dominion fleet is done with it. If Dominion losses will only be similar to what the Federation then Dominion will replace their losses fast.

Then we have ramming of course. The Jem'Hadar fighters will probably cause only hull damages, so it will require a lot of them for one cube. At least that is what I think. But if a Battlecruiser ( 762 meters ) would ram a cube then it would most likely destroy it. Considering that a small S8472 bioship could take out a cube when it collided in Scorpion then I see no reason why a battlecruiser which is far more bigger would have any troubles.

A long drawing out conflict with Dominion will most likely be costly for the Borg.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-04-26 09:27am

Crazedwraith wrote:How cud u get a founder to wear the implants in the first place? Maybe they'll have to use Fc/voy nanoprobe assimiltation with out the end full blown surgery we see in BoBW

Of course, we are assuming that the Borg haven't encountered a shape shifting creature before. Would the Borg even be interested in the ability to morph into different forms?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-04-26 10:29am

Dark Primus wrote:Yes, and in First Contact the 30-40 ships that was left of the Fed fleet could still cause huge damages to the cube showing that FIREPOWER was all they needed to bring the cube down. What do you think a large Dominion fleet would do to one cube if firepower that all is needed?

Wasn't that also because the Feds in FC would have known of the modulating phaser trick?, also Starfleet Tactical would have had those weapons in BoBW that wouldn't have been ready for another 18 months.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-04-26 11:44am

Dark Primus wrote: Yes, and in First Contact the 30-40 ships that was left of the Fed fleet could still cause huge damages to the cube showing that FIREPOWER was all they needed to bring the cube down.

Absolutely, though the cube was definitely worn down at that point (outer hull damage, power grid fluctuations).

What do you think a large Dominion fleet would do to one cube if firepower that all is needed?

Actually, probably not better than what Starfleet could manage. The Jem'Hadar have a battlecruiser that's probably about on par with a Galaxy, perhaps with more firepower but weaker defenses (see how quickly Defiant shot through one's shields in "Sacrifice..."); then they've got their battleships, which are also somewhat weakly shielded but carry very formidable firepower and heavy armor.

Unfortunately for them, most of their ships are the attack bugs, or cockroach fighters as Lord Mike calls them. Since I HATE cockroaches I will not use that descriptor myself

But I digress...

The attack bugs are weak. Klingon Birds-of-Prey can easily knock their shields down with a few volleys ("Call To Arms"), and they don't seem to have greater firepower than a KBoP, either. A cube would slaughter those things en masse...it'd fall to the battleships to do the real damage.

There wont be much of cube left after the Dominion fleet is done with it. If Dominion losses will only be similar to what the Federation then Dominion will replace their losses fast.

Perhaps, but if this is all-out war, they won't have a chance to regroup. (I know, it's uncharacteristic of the Borg, but I thought those were the parameters of the thread.)

Then we have ramming of course. The Jem'Hadar fighters will probably cause only hull damages, so it will require a lot of them for one cube. At least that is what I think. But if a Battlecruiser ( 762 meters ) would ram a cube then it would most likely destroy it. Considering that a small S8472 bioship could take out a cube when it collided in Scorpion then I see no reason why a battlecruiser which is far more bigger would have any troubles.

I tend to agree, albeit the fact that the Jem'Hadar have never shown a willingness to use those ships in ramming maneuvers. But in fairness, this is a different context--they're fighting a giant cube instead of GCSs, etc. Ramming w/ big ships would be more plausible, even if it is a potential waste of resources.

Of course, should this become a pattern for the Jem'Hadar, Borg are at least smart enough to intensity fire on potential ramming threats. Like I said, the battlecruiser's shields are pretty weak...perhaps they're regenerative, but battering them down isn't all that difficult. It's getting through their armor that's hard, but a Borg cube or large sphere oughta be able to do that better than any Galaxy-class starship. (IIRC, we did see a GCS blow a DBC to hell in "SoA.")

A long drawing out conflict with Dominion will most likely be costly for the Borg.

I think that'd only be the case if the Borg...well, operated like they did against the Federation (which is to say, how they almost ALWAYS operate...groan). Now, if it was a full-scale conflict, the Jem'Hadar and their bug-like ships would be crushed.

But I bet the Dominion could acquit itself against the Borg far better than the Federation could. Pyrrhic victory for Borg? Naw...but a harder fight. The Federation's got the technobabble resourcefulness, but the Jem'Hadar have something that doesn't require bullshit tachyons: iron will. Even when the fate of Earth was at stake, Riker hesitated to crash the E-D into a cube, but that'd be one of the first things a Jem'Hadar First would consider

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-04-26 02:05pm

Inject Borg nano-probes into a Founder, and you end up with the T-1000

.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-04-26 02:21pm

Dark Primus wrote:
NecronLord wrote:That's not true. The borg send however many cubes are neccessery. Scorpion and Dark frontier feature multi cube attacks.
Perhaps it was because it was close to Borg territory, they could send more ships?
Why only send one cube to assimilate Federation?

Because the Borg don't see us as that great of a threat or target. Either that or they were busy with S8472 and could only give so much.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-04-26 08:04pm

I think something that needs to be considered is the size of The Dominion. Look at the fleet they maintained just with the little empire they made in the Alpha Quadrant. And this was while cut off from the Gamma Quad. SO if they can build up/maintain a fleet like this with such a size, what about their well established Dominion? How much of the Gamma quadrant do they control? For all we know they could have more Battleships than the borg have cubes, and thats not even counting how many fighters. I think it could even be more of a case of the Dominion invading the Delta quadrant! Then again they could be really small and equal to that of what they carved out of the Alpha quadrant. Does anyone have any sources on how big the Dominion are in the Gamma quadrant?

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-04-26 09:25pm

I think it would depend on a couple of things.

* If were using the adaptating borg. (non-pussified)

* The ablility for the Dominion to make new weaponry. (Qtorps helped with that second attack)

* Number of encounters between Borg/Dominion.

* How well Borg adapt to Dominion weaponry.

A lot of unknowns there. Basicly it would required the Dominion to keep up with adaptation(by numbers and/or weaponry) and an amazing ability to distribute these new weapons. And if the Dominion were trampling the Borg, the queen would most likely increase the work on adaptation against their weaponry(like she did with the future tech, which she was able to adapt to in the future timeline).

So the dominion could probly handle a stray cube, and probly 3, 4, or possibly more in a strike force, but a full on concetrated invasion(if the dominion was becoming too much of a nuicance) would probly fell the dominion.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-04-27 02:06pm

seanrobertson wrote:
Perhaps, but if this is all-out war, they won't have a chance to regroup. (I know, it's uncharacteristic of the Borg, but I thought those were the parameters of the thread.)

I agree. In all out war the Borg will wear down the Dominion forces eventually.

seanrobertson wrote:
I tend to agree, albeit the fact that the Jem'Hadar have never shown a willingness to use those ships in ramming maneuvers. But in fairness, this is a different context--they're fighting a giant cube instead of GCSs, etc. Ramming w/ big ships would be more plausible, even if it is a potential waste of resources.

If Dominion is starting to take losses it would be smarter to launch the ramming tactic as early as possible while the bugs keeps Borg targeting system occupied.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-04-27 02:14pm

one question, Would assimilating Jem'Hadar do the borg any good? How long could the Borg keep Assimulated Jem'Hadar alive?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-27 02:46pm

The Dominion was losing. After it's main offensive, it got nailed right back because it took many losses and didn't get the relief force it expected (note: the Dominion, even with 3-4 months, only gathered 2800 ships, and this was concidered enough to win the war). They were just holding their borders.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-04-27 05:42pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:The Dominion was losing. After it's main offensive, it got nailed right back because it took many losses and didn't get the relief force it expected (note: the Dominion, even with 3-4 months, only gathered 2800 ships, and this was concidered enough to win the war). They were just holding their borders.

Yepp. The total ship number for the Dominion/Breen/Cardassian forces were 30.000 ships. And the bulk of that force was made up by small Jem'Hadar fighters or gunships. Dominion concentrates on building small ships while the Klingons/Federation builds medium size ships 300-500 meters, and for Federation it does take more resources and more time to build those ships then it takes for Dominion.

Edit: It feels like we are getting off topic here so...

The only possible way for Dominion to win an all out war is to wear down the large Borg armada is by destroying them ship after ship by ramming tacticts. Or load a lot of matter anti-matter into one bug fighter and ram the cube.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-04-27 05:46pm

You mean like the Soviet stragity of building a lot of cheap shity things over a few large powerful things.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-04-27 05:57pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:You mean like the Soviet stragity of building a lot of cheap shity things over a few large powerful things.

Something like that. Those numbers are to keep the enemy at bay, giving time to build the heavier warships later (guessing). There were alot of Dominion battlecruisers in Sacrifice of Angels, so they were obviously building more of their heavier ships. Then the Battleships showed up. There weren't many of them in the final battle so they couldn't have built more then a dozen. Since Dominion was loosing the war they probably sent in the battleships as a desperate move.