Fed Age & Tech vs. Other Trek Cultures

[Darth Garden Gnome]

By the time of TNG era Trek (and alot moreso by DS9) we have Federation starships being able to own any other races ships in the seven seas. This makes absolutely NO SENSE. Here's why:

The Federation is much, much younger than the other races of Trek. Such races as Romulons, Borg, and Klingons are all decades, if notcenturiesolder than the Federation. I don't suppose any of you have any numbers on the matter? Anyways, this would put the Federation at a severe technological disadvatage; often we witness Fed inferiority early in its history, like in TOS or Enterprise. By the time of TNG, however, Federation vessels outclass their counterparts.

That's even more shocking when we consider the fact that peoples like the Klingons are much more geared toward their military then the pascifist (by TNG) Federation. So how is it that an under-militarized Fed GCS can go conquer Klingon & Romulon Warbirds with little effort?

The only conclusion that I could come up with is that the Vulcans shared their technology with the Feds more than we think; even though in the shows they're always complaining about how the Vulcanswon'tshare their tech with them.

Could it be that in between TOS and TNG the Vulcans got generous and gave the Feds a technological boost, thus allowing the Feds to develop weapons and ships to rival their older and more militarized counterparts?

[Kerneth]

Possibly. Or some other older civilizations have joined the Federation and shared technology.

Or, yet another possibility, the Federation made under-the-table deals with Klingon or Romulan traitors for technical information.

[Sea Skimmer]

The United States hasn't even existed as a nation for 250 years yet through trade and its own devolvement now has the worlds best military by a wide margin.

By your logic this makes no sense as well, since nations like the UK and China have existed for much longer and had periods where they where superior to the rest of the world.

[aerius]

Perhaps the humans have better R&D. I've noticed in a fair number of Sci-fi books that I've read that humans are usually among the younger races, but have excellent tech because of their ability to innovate and problem solve. Maybe the same is true in ST, where the superior research skills and inquisitive nature of humans allows them to quickly close the technology gap with the older races.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Im just gonna throw this out.

Is is possible that the Feds are like the USA? Europe and China are must older than we are but the USA is the top dog militarily and economically.

Of course the Feds are pretty stupid but I thought I would throw out the analogy for discussion.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The United States hasn't even existed as a nation for 250 years yet through trade and its own devolvement now has the worlds best military by a wide margin.

By your logic this makes no sense as well, since nations like the UK and China have existed for much longer and had periods where they where superior to the rest of the world.

Except America came from Europe, so they were technologically on par (or close enough) with Europe, China, ect.

The Federation did not come from one of these star empires. They were not once part of them and left, taking the technology with them. Earth developed oblivious to them, in fact. Only after they flew their first primitive warp-rocket did they even know they existed. And even then said star empires were not sharing technology.

Therefor your analogy is flawed.

[TrailerParkJawa]

The United States hasn't even existed as a nation for 250 years yet through trade and its own devolvement now has the worlds best military by a wide margin.

By your logic this makes no sense as well, since nations like the UK and China have existed for much longer and had periods where they where superior to the rest of the world.

Except America came from Europe, so they were technologically on par (or close enough) with Europe, China, ect.

The Federation did not come from one of these star empires. They were not once part of them and left, taking the technology with them. Earth developed oblivious to them, in fact. Only after they flew their first primitive warp-rocket did they even know they existed. And even then said star empires were not sharing technology.

Therefor your analogy is flawed.

Okay fair enough, so do think Earth gained such knowledge through espinoge? The big problem with sci-fi is the chance of two cultures seperated by space meeting and being roughly equal is pretty fricking slim, but then the stories would not be as interesting.

[Mad]

I think the Federation had to have help, in some form or another, from other governments with more advanced technology. Aside from direct help, there was probably a good deal of reverse engineering. At first, the Federation would only be able to reverse engineer some relatively simple alien technologies. But as the Feds gain knowledge of years and years, their technology levels improve and then they can move on to more advanced technologies. Based on this thread, it wasn't until post-TOS where the Feds gained enough knowledge this way to become the equals of its neighbors.

Such a technique has probably been used by most space-faring civilizations in Trek, since certain technologies are very popular throughout the galaxy: transporters and phasers or weapons with phaser-like characteristics, for example.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Okay fair enough, so do think Earth gained such knowledge through espinoge?

Could be; that might be where our secretive "Sector 31" came into play. Maybe made some under-the-table deals with the older races like Kerneth suggested.

Aerius: Its possible, but seems fairly unlikely. After all, until TOS the Vulcans were actuallyholding them backin their research of new technologies.

Now in TOS the Feds were more militeristic - and yet still inferior to the older races - so there may have been some leaps in advancment there. But then a century passes by, and they become less militeristic, and they are superior to the older races? I thought TNG era research was going into how to cure diseases and baldness, not creating better weapons.

[Kerneth]

The Vulcan's may have finally pulled their pointy-eared heads out of their asses and said "Hey, wait, we're allied with these people and not helping them develop the technology they need to effectively combat all these other people who are trying to kill us! This is pretty freakin' stupid!"

[Sea Skimmer]

Except America came from Europe, so they were technologically on par (or close enough) with Europe, China, ect.

The Federation did not come from one of these star empires. They were not once part of them and left, taking the technology with them. Earth developed oblivious to them, in fact. Only after they flew their first primitive warp-rocket did they even know they existed. And even then said star empires were not sharing technology.

Therefor your analogy is flawed.

No its not, when Earth reached warp, it also at once came into contact with the Vulcan's who could bring the Federation up to par with what they already had. The Federation like American wasn't as developed as the rest, but had the same information to work from. From there both went to the top in a few hundred years.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

No its not, when Earth reached warp, it also at once came into contact with the Vulcan's who could bring the Federation up to par with what they already had. The Federation like American wasn't as developed as the rest, but had the same information to work from. From there both went to the top in a few hundred years.

The Vulcan's weren't sharing much of their technology with Earth, though. Throughout Enterprise they constantly complain about it. The Vulcan's level of invovlment seemed to be to walk onto a ship, decide whether or not it would explode when it entered warp, if it would tell them to build a new one, if not, give them the OK.

Lets not forget that the Federation is pacifist too. At the time of TOS, when the Feds were still tough about what they did, I can see them funneling lots of resources into weapons technology, but by the time of TNG, thats the thing they seem to care about.

So how could weapons improve in this era? Many have suggested the Vulcans wised up between TOS and TNG, allowing the pacifist nation to get a weapons boost for nothing. Makes sense to me.

[Wrath]

The Vulcan's weren't sharing much of their technology with Earth, though. Throughout Enterprise they constantly complain about it. The Vulcan's level of invovlment seemed to be to walk onto a ship, decide whether or not it would explode when it entered warp, if it would tell them to build a new one, if not, give them the OK.

Lets not forget that the Federation is pacifist too. At the time of TOS, when the Feds were still tough about what they did, I can see them funneling lots of resources into weapons technology, but by the time of TNG, thats the thing they seem to care about.

So how could weapons improve in this era? Many have suggested the Vulcans wised up between TOS and TNG, allowing the pacifist nation to get a weapons boost for nothing. Makes sense to me.

you quote the romulans and klingons are races who have been out there longer then HUMANs, but forget about the future member races of the federation the vulcans who have been out there longer then the romulans who if I remeber my star trek history right traded the klingons there cloaking tech for warp tech. we have the Andorians who have been out in space a long time as well.

also i'm not sure in enterprise the vulcans are part of the federation, they are just allys of earth I believe.....

[Darth Garden Gnome]

you quote the romulans and klingons are races who have been out there longer then HUMANs, but forget about the future member races of the federation the vulcans who have been out there longer then the romulans who if I remeber my star trek history right traded the klingons there cloaking tech for warp tech. we have the Andorians who have been out in space a long time as well.

also i'm not sure in enterprise the vulcans are part of the federation, they are just allys of earth I believe.....

Well did the Vulcans ever trade technology with Star Fleet (that being the correct terminology intead of "Federation" I suppose) in between ENT and TOS? I've never heard anything about it. Plus, if the Vulcans did give them their tech, it still wasn't enough to make Star Fleet ships comparable with Klingon or Romulon ships until TNG.

And again, by TNG the Feds have become pacifist, so focusing on weaponsisn'twhat they do.

So if the Vulcans gave Earth their technology in between ENT and TOS, why was Star Fleet still inferior by TOS? How did the Feds improve their ships in the next century so much being pacifists?

[Sea Skimmer]

The Vulcan's weren't sharing much of their technology with Earth, though. Throughout Enterprise they constantly complain about it.

Enterprise ass rapes early Federation history in so many ways you can either accept it, or accept the rest of trek as far as I'm concerned.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Enterprise ass rapes early Federation history in so many ways you can either accept it, or accept the rest of trek as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not here to discuss your personal preferences Skimmer. I'm going by Paramount's official policy on the matter. The TV shows (ALL of them) and the movies are canon. Period.

If there are any contradictions between ENT and any of the other series, then its up to the viewer to judge who's correct. I simply give ENT the "quasi-canon" status, meaning it is canon unless contradicted by the earlier Treks.

[paladin]

How can you say Fed tech was inferior to Klingons and Romulans in TOS. Fed tech seemed to be equal to or a little more advanced then the Klingons or Romulans.

In the "Balance of Terror" its clear that Fed tech is superior to Romulan tech. It's only in "The Enterprise Incident" that the Romulans have more advance tech by trading with the Klingons.

In ST IV: the Voyage Home, its shows Fed tech is equal to or Klingon tech. If Klingon tech was superior, Kirk would have been a hero for presenting the Federation with the BoP. Since he didn't, it would safe to say Klingon tech is around the same level as the Feds. Scotty did make derogatory comments about the Klingon tech being junk but his comments could be attributed to his pride as an engineer. In Klingons defense, they probably are "harder" on their equipment and probably don't perform maintenance when they should.

[Wrath]

Well did the Vulcans ever trade technology with Star Fleet (that being the correct terminology intead of "Federation" I suppose) in between ENT and TOS? I've never heard anything about it. Plus, if the Vulcans did give them their tech, it still wasn't enough to make Star Fleet ships comparable with Klingon or Romulon ships until TNG.

And again, by TNG the Feds have become pacifist, so focusing on weaponsisn'twhat they do.

So if the Vulcans gave Earth their technology in between ENT and TOS, why was Star Fleet still inferior by TOS? How did the Feds improve their ships in the next century so much being pacifists?

ok man its not about trade, once the vulcans become part of the federation , it would liken to the UK comeing part of the US, all techs would be openly able to each race, also if you look at the klingons in enterprise they aren't that advanced , infact we know that the vulcans are among the most advanced race at this time, they simply do not have the conquer instict of the klingons which mean they aren't as powerful.

you are mistaking power for technolgy, once the vulcan and other races start to come into the federation and open sharing on techonogys happen , after enterprise the federation comes on a par with klingons ect... very which look at TOS, they also manage to defeat the romulans in a war before TOS as well. so the divide your seeing isn't between the federation and klingons/romulans its between earth and those powers....

[Natorgator]

Hey all, I'm technically a noob but I have been lurking here for a couple of months now and wanted to share my thoughts about this post. Anyhow, as far as the sharing of tech goes between Starfleet and the Vulcans, I think it would be reasonable to say that it could be analagous to the situation between British entrepeneurs sharing manufacturing technology with America in the 1800s, despite the fact Britain passed laws designed to prevent such practices. In other words, no sharing through "official" means, but perhaps it made its way over through other manners.

[Howedar]

Some fucking idiot is probably going to "poke" you now. Actually, probably quite a few of them.

[Wrath]

Hey all, I'm technically a noob but I have been lurking here for a couple of months now and wanted to share my thoughts about this post. Anyhow, as far as the sharing of tech goes between Starfleet and the Vulcans, I think it would be reasonable to say that it could be analagous to the situation between British entrepeneurs sharing manufacturing technology with America in the 1800s, despite the fact Britain passed laws designed to prevent such practices. In other words, no sharing through "official" means, but perhaps it made its way over through other manners.

dispite what Howedar said I don't want to poke you i'm not that sexually inclined

i'm pritty much a newbie on this forum although I have been debating for 3-4 years now, i'd say read some of the resent posts.

your statement really goes againist what we have seen of vulcans, essically of the time where speaking of , where they are very paraniod compared to TNG vulcans.

[Uraniun235]

Enterprise ass rapes early Federation history in so many ways you can either accept it, or accept the rest of trek as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not here to discuss your personal preferences Skimmer. I'm going by Paramount's official policy on the matter. The TV shows (ALL of them) and the movies are canon. Period.

If there are any contradictions between ENT and any of the other series, then its up to the viewer to judge who's correct. I simply give ENT the "quasi-canon" status, meaning it is canon unless contradicted by the earlier Treks.

...despite the fact that said canon policy requires we disregard Roddenberry's "The Motion Picture" novelization, even though he was the fucking creator of the franchise?

No, Paramount's "policy" (obviously designed first and foremost for their convenience) is a pile of shit, and I see no reason why we cannot develop a canonicity policy for this forum, for non-vs. debates only of course.

I think it likely that the Federation used a combination of espionage, research, and trade to bring themselves up quickly to par with the other star empires. I would normally have said that Vulcan would probably have been the primary contributor to early Federation advancement, but obviously Enterprise has fucked with everything.

[Ted C]

On the original question...

It's fairly obvious to me that all Federation technology is either Vulcan in origin or acquired through other cultural contacts. Most likely, the Vulcan's became much more generous with their technology once the Federation officially came into being and adopted numerous Vulcan policies (like the "money free" economy, non-interference, etc.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Since when is TOS inferior to everyone?

In "Balance of Terror" despite a cloaking device, a Romulan Warbird got nailed by a Constitution.

In "The Enterprise Incident" it took multiple Klingon modle Romulan warships to stop the E-Nil.

In "Elaan of Troyius" a single barage of torpedoes crippled a D-7. and the E-Nil managed to survive multiple attacks with no warp power.

[Wrath]

Since when is TOS inferior to everyone?

In "Balance of Terror" despite a cloaking device, a Romulan Warbird got nailed by a Constitution.

In "The Enterprise Incident" it took multiple Klingon modle Romulan warships to stop the E-Nil.

In "Elaan of Troyius" a single barage of torpedoes crippled a D-7. and the E-Nil managed to survive multiple attacks with no warp power.

but that was ubber kirk

naar I was thinking the same thing as I said the feds managed to win a war againist the romulans pre tos