My idea for fixing Nemesis

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 11:08am

As we all know, Star Trek: Nemesis was an attempt to go back to the classics Trek. It failed utterly in that respect. TWOK involved researching old TOS episodes and finding an enemy worthy of Kirk. Nemesis involved duplicating TWOKs basic plot ideas rather then learning lessons. What Nemesis should have been was a research into past TNG plots for a good enemy rather then a carbon copy clone of TWOK. Well we already like the idea of using the Romulans, we can work with that. We have the Romulans; however, this time we have Sela instead. That’s right, we really go back to the basics with this. It’s a nod towards first season TNG as well as the continuing plot bits that Sela showed up in several times.

The movie starts out much like it did. The Romulan senate is in session and is assassinated. Sela is responsible for this. She kills the Romulan government just to create a power vacuum. What happens is Spock comes out of hiding and takes advantage of the situation to peruse peace with the Federation and enlightened ideas with the Romulans. He gains support and becomes to knew head of the Romulan government (because Sela lets him). Movie goes back to the wedding. That still happens. After the wedding the Enterprise is told of Spock inviting the Enterprise to Romulus. Worf is forced to leave because he has official duties at Ambassador on the Klingon Homeworld.

The Enterprise and a small task force of ships lead by Vice Admiral Jellico head to Romulus. At this point in the movie you have a bit with Spock and Picard meeting with each other and its kinda predictable for the diplomatic aspect. Picard stumbles upon Sela’s plans and Sela kidnaps Picard. Spock finds out Picard is missing contacts Data and the Enterprise manages to help effects his rescue. Picard tells the fleet what has happened and that Sela is back. As usual Sela got arrogant and told Picard the plan before killing him. Picard gets Spock on board and the Enterprise runs. The small task force led by Vice Admiral Jellico stays behind to prevent pursuit by engaging the Romulus defense fleet. Jellico saves critical time, but it eventually over run and killed.

Picard relays to the crew that Sela is planning an invasion of the Federation. Sela is using a modified version of the Jem’Hadar that are bred to be loyal to only her. The Enterprise is chased down by the fastest and most powerful ship Sela has, a captured Dominion Dreadnaught. Sela must silence the Enterprise but she also wants personal vengeance on Spock and Picard. After a quick but vicious fight the Dreadnaught knocks out the Enterprises shields. Sela beams over several hundred of her Jem’Hadar to capture the Enterprise. They are beamed over to multiple points on the saucer, engineering, and weapon areas. A running firefight ensues as Federation Marines are forced to fight them off. A bloody battle rages on but the Marines eventually win and set up manual transporter blocking fields. During the battle Security Chief Daniels distinguishes himself (he was in both FC and Insurrection, he got bloody replaced by Worf for Nemesis and that pissed me off). Data also takes part in the battle by using his inhuman speed and reflexes to pull near matrix type maneuvers. Sela is enraged and is prepared to destroy the Enterprise. Rather then get that chance a small task force of Klingon Ships appears and attacks Sela. Turns out Martok and Worf were heading to Romulus with an official invite that Spock managed to send just prior to his beaming aboard the Enterprise when he escaped Romulus. The Klingon force still isn’t large enough to deal with the Dreadnaught so the Enterprise launches several attack fighters. Riker pilots one while Data takes the gunner position. Another vicious battle ensues, but this time Sela is loosing. Seeing that she is about loose it all she wants to fire a last shot on the Enterprise so she can still kill Picard and Spock. Riker and Data see the ship charge up for a final shot and they are the only ones near the weapon arc. Their own weapons are exhausted. They both agree and Riker hits warp speed and they warp ram the weapon Dreadnaught. A few more shots from the Klingon ships and surviving Enterprise fighters and the Dreadnaught is blown apart.

Movie goes to the wake and this time its for both Data and Riker. Deana of course is mourning the loss of her husband. Spock being half human also mourns for Data’s loss.

So, sound any good?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-04-27 11:14am

Warp ramming could only really work if you extened the shields outside the warp field.

Also, where did she make the Jem Hadar?

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-04-27 11:21am

Sounds cool indeed.
But some parts bug me :

*warp ramming. Duh ? Deflector express modification ( BOBW-style ) should do the trick nicely...
*why killing both Data and Riker ? Are you jealous about Deanna

?
We should try to find another trick... aka Sela wants an army of androids to replace her JH, and wants to study Data. Stealing classified files about him being insufficient to start mass-production in a satisfying time-frame, she decides to abduct him. In the course of the movies Data's positronic brain gets toasted due to experiments, but somehow, his consciouness remains as a compressed file in a Romulan computer ( wether this actually serves the plot of this movie or the upcomming battle isn't important, but that should be nice for a next TNG film

)
*I think the Dominion Superdreadnought could use some Romulan design improvements ( questionable Dominion esthetics ) or you could replace it by a new breed of non-Scimitar uber-warbirds ( and I want Valdore-class ships ! ).

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 11:50am

NecronLord wrote:Warp ramming could only really work if you extened the shields outside the warp field.

Also, where did she make the Jem Hadar?

I said it was captured.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 11:51am

The Nomad wrote:Sounds cool indeed.
But some parts bug me :

*warp ramming. Duh ? Deflector express modification ( BOBW-style ) should do the trick nicely...
*why killing both Data and Riker ? Are you jealous about Deanna ?
We should try to find another trick... aka Sela wants an army of androids to replace her JH, and wants to study Data. Stealing classified files about him being insufficient to start mass-production in a satisfying time-frame, she decides to abduct him. In the course of the movies Data's positronic brain gets toasted due to experiments, but somehow, his consciouness remains as a compressed file in a Romulan computer ( wether this actually serves the plot of this movie or the upcomming battle isn't important, but that should be nice for a next TNG film )
*I think the Dominion Superdreadnought could use some Romulan design improvements ( questionable Dominion esthetics ) or you could replace it by a new breed of non-Scimitar uber-warbirds ( and I want Valdore-class ships ! ).

Oh I know that its not perfect. Its kinda rough base for a new plot. There probably needs to be more screen time for Spock.

Hmm, maybe Data and Spock could sacrafice themselves. They both understand the "Greater Good" concept.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-04-27 01:58pm

The only thing wrong with Nemesis was Janeway and the Buggy Scene (copied from Season 3 farscape I'm sure :p)

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 02:27pm

Super-Gagme wrote:The only thing wrong with Nemesis was Janeway and the Buggy Scene (copied from Season 3 farscape I'm sure :p)

Janeway can easily be removed and the buggy scene isn't even in what I thought up.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-04-27 03:42pm

To me it would have been better if Spock had replaced Riker in dying because this would have made it look as though the hero had personally killed off his own archvillian and it would have allowed Nemoy to slowly back out of his role as Spock again. Just some thoughts.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-27 03:43pm

Well, I have no problem, necessarily with the Remans, I just wish they hadn't made them such weenies in the movie. I mean, man, how do you get the drop on a pair of characters a few feet away and shoot at them for a full two seconds before they react and make it to cover, yet miss every damn time? So I suppose replacing them is a good move, since what they are is not consequential to the plot anyway, so long as they are ugly and evil looking.

And I like using Sela. I think it's universially agreed that she could have been Picard's Khan. She had far more beef with Picard (and Data, for that matter, since she is 0 for 3 in TNG thanks to both of them) than Skippy did. The Dominion Dreadnaught is a nice touch, since there is no question about where she got it or how it was kept from the Romulans; it simply wasn't. It's been sitting in spacedock for years while they are reverse engineering it.

My only issue is where the Enterprise got Marines and Fighters from. There is no mention in any show or movie about the Enterprise having either. Also, why didn't the fighters scamble when the Dreadnaught attacked originally? Plus, I can't see why Sela can't have the defenders and command staff be beamed out at this point, though you were right not to include it, since they don't bother to do this anyway in StarTrek. And since when can Data pump out Matrix-like moves and why didn't he do them in First Contact or any other time we've seen him fight? He's only don't the superspeed thing when working a console, changing circuit boards, and I think once when those crystalline critters took over that laser.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-04-27 03:47pm

They mantioned using fighters in DS9.

Hades · Post by **Hades** » 2003-04-27 04:43pm

Theres nothing wrong with the film. It is the One of the best ones out of all the films (beaten only by Wrath of Khan, Voyage home and First contact)

It had a brilliant story line, superb action and fight scenes..... i really dont see why evreyone insults it so.
Are you just all going along with the status-quo??? following like sheep evreyone elses opinions?

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2003-04-27 04:49pm

Hades wrote:Theres nothing wrong with the film. It is the One of the best ones out of all the films (beaten only by Wrath of Khan, Voyage home and First contact)

It had a brilliant story line, superb action and fight scenes..... i really dont see why evreyone insults it so.
Are you just all going along with the status-quo??? following like sheep evreyone elses opinions?

No we have problems with the way the film was done. What kind of plausible explanation is there for a slave-race building an ubership of doom? Why bring in a clone instead of an already recurring character that we know personally has it in for Picard? What was the point of having B-9, his very existence is contradicted by TNG canon.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 04:52pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:My only issue is where the Enterprise got Marines and Fighters from. There is no mention in any show or movie about the Enterprise having either. Also, why didn't the fighters scamble when the Dreadnaught attacked originally? Plus, I can't see why Sela can't have the defenders and command staff be beamed out at this point, though you were right not to include it, since they don't bother to do this anyway in StarTrek. And since when can Data pump out Matrix-like moves and why didn't he do them in First Contact or any other time we've seen him fight? He's only don't the superspeed thing when working a console, changing circuit boards, and I think once when those crystalline critters took over that laser.

Ok, lets adress this point by point.

First the Fighters and Marines. We know that there are Tac-Fighters used by the Federation. Though I suppose for the sake of plausibility it could be said the Enterprise launched armed multi-role shuttles. This would actualy be better since it would explain how two peope can fit in one craft (the Tac-Fighters cockpit is to small for more then one person). As to the Marines. it could be argued that we never really got a look at them durring DS9. Furthermore after the war the Federation decided that detachments should be placed onboard some of the more important ships. So logicaly there could be a platoon of Marines. With the Marines and the security detachment they fight off the invaders.

As to why the fighters didn't scrable the first time... Well if the Dreadnaught caught up while cloaked and caught the Enterprise by surprise AND knocked out its shields with an alpha strike, there isn't really much time to respond back. The Enterprise could fire a handful of shots before invaders beam aboard.

Now why did the crew not get beams off. In Trek they have shown the ability to beam people down somewhere even when they can't lock. So the invaders can beam aboard. They disrupt the ship (as in stop it from firing on the Dreadnaught) and try to find Picard. Defenders fight them off in a bloody battle. The reason hundreds are beamed aboard and are killed is because Jem'Hadar make shock troops, not "elite" soldiers.

I guess I was a little generous with Data. The intent is that they show him joining in with the defense and he really portrays himself well against the enemies. Both in hand to hand (swatting them asside easily) as well as single shot kills with quick aiming.

One thing. There MUST be a military advisor for the ship board combat sequence, its gotta look good.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 04:54pm

Hades wrote:Theres nothing wrong with the film. It is the One of the best ones out of all the films (beaten only by Wrath of Khan, Voyage home and First contact)

It had a brilliant story line, superb action and fight scenes..... i really dont see why evreyone insults it so.
Are you just all going along with the status-quo??? following like sheep evreyone elses opinions?

Lets see... They used a contrived plot, had terrible elements, and completely forgot important parts of Trek history. Hell, the makers claimed to be going back to the classics. Turns out that meant they tried to clone what TWOK looked like and wrap it up in a TNG shell.

This movie idea brings in very important plot aspects as well as having the second best Nemesis for Picard (Sela, Borg being his first).

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-27 05:25pm

It was a crappy copy of TWOK, even the ending!

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-27 06:16pm

closet sci-fi fan wrote:
As to the Marines. it could be argued that we never really got a look at them durring DS9. Furthermore after the war the Federation decided that detachments should be placed onboard some of the more important ships. So logicaly there could be a platoon of Marines. With the Marines and the security detachment they fight off the invaders.
I would like to have seen things developed as a result of lessons learned from the Dominion war. It would have been nice to see warships built during the war that were just coming into service. It would have also been nice to see Federation Marine units that were developed since Security forces were shown to be insufficent for boarding operations, holding and taking territory on the ground, etc.

Thats kinda the idea behind the Marines. They are partialy a devolpment from the Dominion war. We already know the improvements on the Sovereign class are from the Dominion War as well.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-04-27 08:27pm

Hmm, I like it mostly. Sela is a definate yes, as is Spock. (I am still upset he wasn't even mentioned) Although I liked the Scimitar's uberness, the Dreadnought makes more sense. I like the idea of phaser deathblossom against a visible target

Marines, hmm. I like the idea of them having them, but there is no visual precident, how will you show them? Data's matrix moves... go right ahead. Data and Riker ramming, well, I would rather something else. I can see Riker going, or Spock (Riker because he is a selfish pig) but Data? Hmm. I will have to think more on this before replying again.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-27 08:55pm

As I've told Alyeska, I'm a seriously not big fan of bringing a TOS character back yet again.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-27 11:07pm

Alyeska wrote:Ok, lets adress this point by point.

First the Fighters and Marines. We know that there are Tac-Fighters used by the Federation. Though I suppose for the sake of plausibility it could be said the Enterprise launched armed multi-role shuttles. This would actualy be better since it would explain how two peope can fit in one craft (the Tac-Fighters cockpit is to small for more then one person). As to the Marines. it could be argued that we never really got a look at them durring DS9. Furthermore after the war the Federation decided that detachments should be placed onboard some of the more important ships. So logicaly there could be a platoon of Marines. With the Marines and the security detachment they fight off the invaders.

I suppose it's possible.

As to why the fighters didn't scrable the first time... Well if the Dreadnaught caught up while cloaked and caught the Enterprise by surprise AND knocked out its shields with an alpha strike, there isn't really much time to respond back. The Enterprise could fire a handful of shots before invaders beam aboard.

We've seen Dreadnaughts in action before. The one the Valiant fought eventually nailed the Defiant-class ship, but not in one salvo. I'm pretty sure that the post-Dominion war Soveriegn has better shields than the Valiant. Since they would likely know they they were being followed, the pilots would at least have be somewhat ready to hope in their shuttles and fight.

Now why did the crew not get beams off. In Trek they have shown the ability to beam people down somewhere even when they can't lock. So the invaders can beam aboard. They disrupt the ship (as in stop it from firing on the Dreadnaught) and try to find Picard. Defenders fight them off in a bloody battle. The reason hundreds are beamed aboard and are killed is because Jem'Hadar make shock troops, not "elite" soldiers.

Fair enough, though I'd think that they'd beam troopers directly to the bridge if they were after Picard and just enough to block off reinforcements to the bridge.

I guess I was a little generous with Data. The intent is that they show him joining in with the defense and he really portrays himself well against the enemies. Both in hand to hand (swatting them asside easily) as well as single shot kills with quick aiming.

One thing. There MUST be a military advisor for the ship board combat sequence, its gotta look good.

Okie dokie.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-04-27 11:20pm

Howedar wrote:As I've told Alyeska, I'm a seriously not big fan of bringing a TOS character back yet again.

Well at least Spock would have a worthy death at the helm of the Enterprise, instead of falling off a bridge.

And since Spock has a long enough life-span (Vulcans do, right?) it is plausible he would return for this important issue.

Sela idea rules, way better than Skippy. I like the whole militarized Federation angle, with the fighters and marines. Although I think you're overestimating Data's abilities; Data combat would be good, but it shouldn't be godly. And of course the Dominion Dreadnaught idea is cool, makes a whole lot more sense than building something like the Scimitar right under your captors noses.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-28 12:17am

The best thing about the movie is that it has a nod towards every series. Keep the USS Archer for the ENT reference. Janeway is fine but keep her as a one star Admiral and she is merely relaying orders. The Martok bit and Worf as Abassador as well as the Dominion Dreadnaught and Jem'Hadar clones gives a big nod to DS9. The Sela/Spock/Data/Picard angle is a BIG nod towards TNG history. Spock, need I say more?

Hades · Post by **Hades** » 2003-04-28 02:28am

Luke Starkiller wrote:
Hades wrote:Theres nothing wrong with the film. It is the One of the best ones out of all the films (beaten only by Wrath of Khan, Voyage home and First contact)

It had a brilliant story line, superb action and fight scenes..... i really dont see why evreyone insults it so.
Are you just all going along with the status-quo??? following like sheep evreyone elses opinions?
No we have problems with the way the film was done. What kind of plausible explanation is there for a slave-race building an ubership of doom? Why bring in a clone instead of an already recurring character that we know personally has it in for Picard? What was the point of having B-9, his very existence is contradicted by TNG canon.

To be Honest i dont think having Sela has the bad guy would have been good at all. I never really liked the character in the show. As for someone mentioning that it forgets trek history des it actually make any continuity errors??? If by what thay siad there they simply mean they didnt use a bad guy from the show then thats just a stupid point. not all the movies need to have past bad guys to be good.

I will admit that having B-9 was odd. especially considering they didnt mention Data other "brother" (was it lorne or somthing?.....you know who im talking about, the evil one, alied himself with the borg for an ep) If they had simply at least mentiond him i would have been a lot happier

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-28 03:01am

Hades wrote:To be Honest i dont think having Sela has the bad guy would have been good at all. I never really liked the character in the show. As for someone mentioning that it forgets trek history des it actually make any continuity errors??? If by what thay siad there they simply mean they didnt use a bad guy from the show then thats just a stupid point. not all the movies need to have past bad guys to be good.

Why wouldn't Sela have been good? Sela was perfect for the role. Since they were trying to parallel TWoK, they need a villain with alot of history with the main characters, which in Nemesis were largely Picard and Data. Sela has large amounts of beef with both of them, since both of them were responsible for foiling her three times. The fact that she continually got beaten by Picard and Data means that she had been disgraced in front of her government by them, on top of her failure putting the Romulan Empire in an extremely awkward situation. As Sela was never one of the sanest birds in the flock in the first place, her getting it in her head to get serious revenge on Picard et al, on top of restoring her name in the Empire, would be a serious motive.

She is also established as a quite high ranking Romulan officer and while she was disgraced by her continual failure at the hands of Picard et al, she still has plenty of resources and contacts within the Empire. Unlike Shinzon, who was a failed science experiment that they left to die in some god forsaken pit, it doesn't stretch the imagination at all that she would be in a position to get her hands on something like the Scimitar (or in Alyeska's scenario, a captured Dominion Dreadnaught). This means that Sela has the means as well to execute the plot of Nemesis.

Plus, this helps create yet another paralell with TWoK. In TWoK, it tied up a loose end left in the TOS episode "Space Seed". WIth Alyeska's idea of using Sela (and Spock), this mirrors TWoK, by bringing back and tying up the loose end left by the episodes of "Unification". Tying up that particular incident would be a good thing, since the plot of "Unification" would amount of a dramatic shift in the balance of power in the StarTrek universe, but it was never addressed again. While Nemesis wasn't clear on the extent on of with the Romulan peace had happened and whether the Romulans would continue to be hostile or not toward the Federation, the end of "Unification" would have been a dramatic stroke, and Spocks final triumph would mean the end of the cold war with the Romulans forever with the final bringing together of the Vulcan and Romulan peoples. As Nemesis was the last likely TNG movie, it would be the powerful sort of finale that would mark the end of the TNG era. It would end like the TOS era ended, with enemies on the brink of war, with all the main powers in StarTrek; the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans, finally ending their conflicts in peace.

Hades · Post by **Hades** » 2003-04-28 08:24am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Hades wrote:To be Honest i dont think having Sela has the bad guy would have been good at all. I never really liked the character in the show. As for someone mentioning that it forgets trek history des it actually make any continuity errors??? If by what thay siad there they simply mean they didnt use a bad guy from the show then thats just a stupid point. not all the movies need to have past bad guys to be good.
Why wouldn't Sela have been good? Sela was perfect for the role. Since they were trying to parallel TWoK, .

How do you know they were trying to parallel TWOK??? Its this based on someone who worked on the film saying so in an interview or you just asuming it from watching the film itself?

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-04-28 08:40am

Hades wrote:How do you know they were trying to parallel TWOK??? Its this based on someone who worked on the film saying so in an interview or you just asuming it from watching the film itself?

Yes, parallels to TWOK were completely intentional. This was stated several times in interviews by the people involved in making of the Nemesis, especially by the script writer John Logan.

@ Alyeska

Great work with your own version. Alas the real movie was not like this.