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How would the Federation have fared in the Dominion war if the events in Q-who and BOBW 1 and 2 NEVER happened. No meeting with the borg in other words

Probably not much differently.

But, the Feds probably would have been toast if the Borg launched an invasion with no knowledge of them.

Feds caught with pants down, Earth bends its knee to the founders.

The federation only just managed to pull off the war as it was, with the limited number of new ships and upgrades to older models now missing they would get stomped flat.

Q did what he set out to do, show the Feds that they weren't kings of the universe and that if they wanted to go on surviving they better get their military upto date.

Of course, B & B took over and now the Feddies ARE the kings of the universe. Look at the stupid ass Delta Quadrant. Every race that Voyager ran into was pathetically inferior.

What about the Voth?

But without the borg tthere would have been a while lot more of those super powerful GCS' shios that can destroy planets with a single phaser shot and....oh my....

I think the FEds take heavier losses, but the Klingons and ROmmies would in some way pick up the slack, but aterwards the Federation would have to cowtow to one or the other of those two powers.

I'd expect the Dominion wins. This means no Defiant, which will greatly change how DS9 runs, and could easily mean no self-replicating wormhole minefield, no intel gathered using cloak. All that aside, the Federation would be much weaker and its victory did seem fairly narrow.

However on the other hand, the alterations to history could easily mean the Federation also doesn't take hold of DS9 in the first place, or places a different commander there who doesn’t find the wormhole.

Hmmm, no military build-up in the face of the Borg threat = Jem'Hadar and the Founders turning the Federation into their bitch, with no lubricant.

Even as it was the whole Dominion War was a narrow victory for the Federation and its Allies, and had Sisko failed/ or been killed before having a chance to con the Romulans into entering, the Federation was still about to lose the war.

Sea Skimmer wrote: However on the other hand, the alterations to history could easily mean the Federation also doesn't take hold of DS9 in the first place, or places a different commander there who doesn’t find the wormhole.

You make a good point, with no Borg then Sisko's wife doesn't die nor does his ship get destroyed.

Therefore it is unlikely that he would go to Bajor (he was planning to quit anyway before he found the wormhole) and without him going there the finding of the wormhole is unlikely to occur since that hinged upon him being the Emissary as did the Wormhole aliens decidingto allow the wormhole to be used.

So it seems like nobody would have won the war since the war wouldn't have taken place.

TheDarkling wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote: However on the other hand, the alterations to history could easily mean the Federation also doesn't take hold of DS9 in the first place, or places a different commander there who doesn’t find the wormhole.

You make a good point, with no Borg then Sisko's wife doesn't die nor does his ship get destroyed.

Therefore it is unlikely that he would go to Bajor (he was planning to quit anyway before he found the wormhole) and without him going there the finding of the wormhole is unlikely to occur since that hinged upon him being the Emissary as did the Wormhole aliens decidingto allow the wormhole to be used.

So it seems like nobody would have won the war since the war wouldn't have taken place.

Not likely by my way of thinking:

So Sisko (and his ship) don't get a beating by the Borg, his wife still lives and someone else is station officer on DS9/Terrak Nor. (maybe even not a SF officer)

He is still the Emissary. He will find his way to Bajor and stare into that Orb, the only question is how.
And if he then gets his hands on a ship (or uses his SF command, if he still holds a commission) and opens Pandora's Box aka The Wormhole ... aka Can-o-Whopass Dominion Style. They will face the music without the Borg-scare weapons system upgrades. (and wouldn't that just be a shame. )

This is what I`m talking about a scenario where they find the wormhole only Q hasnt kicked the Federation in the ass to get them to arm themselves

Interesting fact: I've been playing with some numbers (Translation: Adding up various calcs).

It turns out the defiant packs more firepower then a first run (TNG era) GCS. A War GCS beats it, but not a regular one.

So without the borg kickstarting the feddies, they would have been creamed.

Ender wrote:Interesting fact: I've been playing with some numbers (Translation: Adding up various calcs).

It turns out the defiant packs more firepower then a first run (TNG era) GCS. A War GCS beats it, but not a regular one.

So without the borg kickstarting the feddies, they would have been creamed.

Which means the Defiant is not really a escort ship it is truely a Fast Battlecruiser! Add the cloak and that is alot of punch in such a small vessel.

Ender wrote:Interesting fact: I've been playing with some numbers (Translation: Adding up various calcs).

It turns out the defiant packs more firepower then a first run (TNG era) GCS. A War GCS beats it, but not a regular one. ...

I am not really surpriced the munchkins would boost it to that level (a bit like character shield syndrome), but the Defiant is rather cool, so I am OK with it.

Endor, would you tell us what those numbers are?
I am kind of rusty/underinformed on the armamaents of most of the SF classes anyway, so some condensed info links/whatnot form any of you would be nice, although it might belong under a seperate thread. (or even a sticky at the top of Pure ST?)

Isolder74 wrote:
Which means the Defiant is not really a escort ship it is truely a Fast Battlecruiser! Add the cloak and that is alot of punch in such a small vessel.

No it's an escort; the Federation simply lacks anything else, which mounts firepower over the motor gunboat level. Fast battlecruiser is redundant anyway.

- The Defiant saved Dukat from the Klingons in Way of The Warrior, so if he's not saved then no Cardassia in the Dominion.
- The Martok Founder would not have been exposed, causing furthar ass-kickage of the Federation
- If this continued, the AQ would be weaker all round, meaning the Dominion could waltz right through it.
- Hail the conquering Dominion.