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In TOS era the Feds had a free market right? So what do you belive happened to the people who owned the major Corporations. They must have been extremly rich, and I seriously doubt they were willing to give it all up just to please some stupid politicans who wanted to change the system.

I do like the Idea I read in Stravos Star Crossed that the major buisness men, corporations left Federation and set up their own base of operations so to say. Probably formed connections with other races so they could continue with their "buisness as usual".

So this corporate... sector or whatever might have established a strong connections with hundreds of species maybe even surpassed the Feds on the technology level, if they do high tech stuff to sell to other species.
Just something I would like to see in ST

'Workers Tribunals'

I think there was some kind of novel where they showed at least how Ralph Oppenhouse (from "Neutral Zone") set up shop somewhere outside the Federation and did quite successful.

for my part I can't believe there wasn't a huge Civil War against the wussification of Humanity

Yeah, it's not like one of the major premises of Star Trek was that humanity had gotten better as a whole and for the most part didn't settle internal conflicts with war...

Oh wait.

I'm inclined to think that Starfleet and, by extension, the UFP, is but a small slice of what's going on in the Alpha Quadrant. The Federation may have gotten a communist model to work through heavy indoctrination, but it seems ludicrous to believe that every single human in the 24th century is a staunch commie.

IIRC, when Worf first came to DS9, he was contemplating leaving SF joining a mercenary organization of sorts. Such an organization would need to be a part of a much larger capitalist private sector, no?

*shrug* I'm sure numerous examples to both support and refute my assertions can be found. I think I'll go eat a sammich.

This is a wee bit off topic but on a related note. We see Sisko'd dad owns a Cajun resteraunt and we see that the Picards own a vineyard. How do they opperate? Why bother at all if you can't make a profit. How do you get the materials you need to opperate? Who fucking made this shit up about no economy?

Darth Pounder wrote:This is a wee bit off topic but on a related note. We see Sisko'd dad owns a Cajun resteraunt and we see that the Picards own a vineyard. How do they opperate? Why bother at all if you can't make a profit. How do you get the materials you need to opperate? Who fucking made this shit up about no economy?

Picard, First Contact. James T. Kirk, Voyage Home.

Yes. We do see Picard's brother. We also hear him complain that no-one cares about real wine now they can have the state make them replicated wine. He doens't however compalain that he's loosing money even though his sales are down to absoloute bare minimum. If he was in real business, he'd be stony broke.

Maybe it's just Earth (and perhaps a few other core Federation worlds) that are moneyless.

Darth Pounder wrote:This is a wee bit off topic but on a related note. We see Sisko'd dad owns a Cajun resteraunt and we see that the Picards own a vineyard. How do they opperate? Why bother at all if you can't make a profit. How do you get the materials you need to opperate? Who fucking made this shit up about no economy?

True, they'd make no profit. And it's utterly fucking stupid.

Maybe though the resturant and vineyard are more like free-of-charge "public services" in the 24th Century. Long-shot.

Prehaps it is a credit based system with democratic socialist overtones.

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:

Darth Pounder wrote:This is a wee bit off topic but on a related note. We see Sisko'd dad owns a Cajun resteraunt and we see that the Picards own a vineyard. How do they opperate? Why bother at all if you can't make a profit. How do you get the materials you need to opperate? Who fucking made this shit up about no economy?

True, they'd make no profit. And it's utterly fucking stupid.

Maybe though the resturant and vineyard are more like free-of-charge "public services" in the 24th Century. Long-shot.

It goes beyond that, even if it were true they did not make a profit, it still leads to the question of ownership. Owning a vinyard or a resteraunt requires some sort of private property rights. This means some sort of economy has to exist in order for property to change hands.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:

Darth Pounder wrote:This is a wee bit off topic but on a related note. We see Sisko'd dad owns a Cajun resteraunt and we see that the Picards own a vineyard. How do they opperate? Why bother at all if you can't make a profit. How do you get the materials you need to opperate? Who fucking made this shit up about no economy?

True, they'd make no profit. And it's utterly fucking stupid.

Maybe though the resturant and vineyard are more like free-of-charge "public services" in the 24th Century. :? Long-shot.

It goes beyond that, even if it were true they did not make a profit, it still leads to the question of ownership. Owning a vinyard or a resteraunt requires some sort of private property rights. This means some sort of economy has to exist in order for property to change hands.

I suppose it's possible to operate a resturaunt or a vineyard without owning the land that it sits on. If one has a service to provide (ethnic food resturaunt, fine wine for Starfleet to smash against starship hulls), then one could apply for some sort of franchise from the state. The state lends you a chunk of land and you can operate your 'business' so long as you don't do anything stupid. It doesn't matter if you make a profit or not because the concept is non-existent on Earth, and because your little shop provides decoration and helps preserve the image of cultural variety on Earth.

Jeremy wrote:for my part I can't believe there wasn't a huge Civil War against the wussification of Humanity

Doesn't surprise me at all. There are people alive now who buy into the radical left-wing utopia that is TNG-era Trek. There are also people alive now who'd prefer to live on welfare than to actually clean up and find work. So it's hardly inconceivable that Earth could evolve into a massive welfare state. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a whole lot for people to do in Trek, unless they happen to belong to Starfleet.

And, once the welfare state had come fully into being and the last vestiges of free-market had been stomped out, it would follow that the 'wussification' of TNG-era humans would begin in earnest. I mean, to the typical schmuck on Earth who doesn't want to join Starfleet or do overly strenuous government work, wars are bad. Wars lead to interruptions in the monthly dole. So it would follow that the representatives of those people would continually push for Starfleet to become more and more PC and less and less militaristic. This is accelerated by the fact that those who fill the ranks of Starfleet originally start out as politically correct welfare schumucks themselves.

Darth Pounder wrote:This is a wee bit off topic but on a related note. We see Sisko'd dad owns a Cajun resteraunt and we see that the Picards own a vineyard. How do they opperate? Why bother at all if you can't make a profit. How do you get the materials you need to opperate? Who fucking made this shit up about no economy?

Trek is full of contradictions(big surprise) when it comes to money. There have been many occasions when people have mentioned buying a round of drinks or dinner, and these are people likes of Picard, Riker, various starfleet types, etc...
And Federation personel were not prohibited(as some say) from owning money or other possesions. Riker won several bars of latinum at Quarks and later used it to bribe info out of Quark.
The two big examples of Trek not having or using money are Picard in FC and Kirk in The Voyage Home. Both of which served as a plot device. And both can be debated as to the interpretation of what they meant.
Obviously money and businesses exists within the Federation as Quark was allowed to operate a business on DS9, Sisko's father owned a restaraunt, and Picard's brother owned th vineyard.
The view of the Federation as communist is a bit overboard.

The view of the Federation as communist is a bit overboard.

Read Darth Wongs essay on why the Federation is Communist. He makes some good points.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

Alferd Packer wrote:*shrug* I'm sure numerous examples to both support and refute my assertions can be found. I think I'll go eat a sammich.

Just as long as it is no Sam I know!

Isolder74 wrote:

Alferd Packer wrote:*shrug* I'm sure numerous examples to both support and refute my assertions can be found. I think I'll go eat a sammich.

Just as long as it is no Sam I know!

Eat this one.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:oesn't surprise me at all. There are people alive now who buy into the radical left-wing utopia that is TNG-era Trek. There are also people alive now who'd prefer to live on welfare than to actually clean up and find work. So it's hardly inconceivable that Earth could evolve into a massive welfare state. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a whole lot for people to do in Trek, unless they happen to belong to Starfleet.

Well in Star Trek III we see in the bar someone playing a "Red Baron" 3D Simulation game. So there USED to be things to do in the Star Trek Universe! Also Picard got stabbed cheating on a pinballized pool game, Seeze even the cues are powered

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: There are also people alive now who'd prefer to live on welfare than to actually clean up and find work. So it's hardly inconceivable that Earth could evolve into a massive welfare state.

But how would such a society work?