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Posted: **2003-05-05 10:34am**

It is amazing the number of decent heavy weapons the Federation has available that it never uses.

One that immedialtly comes to mind was the program they developed to allow ships without warp engines to travel at warp speed.

This odd device based on a planet or stationary spacebase generated the warp field and threw it at a ship. The wave would pick up the ship and carry it to its destination where another device would use a counter wave to cancel the first wave and without hurting the ship.

The result was supposed to be warp travel without the engine. OF course there are all sorts of logical problems even if this works. What if the wave gets dissipated early stranding the ship in deep space, etc.

In the STNG episode the program doesnt work because the generated wave "feeds" off of subspace and keeps growing in size. So the counter wave at the destination would be unable to cancel it. Supposidly if the warp wave impacted on the planet without be cancelled it would be incredible amounts of damage to the side hit. The description stated suggests that it would be damage on a global scale.

So why not use this as a long range planitary seige weapon? Blast away at enemy planets doing massive damage at no risk. The only was to stop the waves is using starships who fly next to the wave and fire torps into it to detonate the wave. So what? Ships doing this arent attacking your palnets or your ships so you either do massive damage to the enemy planets or they tie up huge portions of their starfleet stopping these waves.

Posted: **2003-05-05 10:38am**

This has been mentioned many times before. Please review basic physics, particular first law of thermodynamics. If the wave truly contained that much energy, where did it all go when it was "dissipated?" Why wasn't the Enterprise destroyed by being in such close proximity when this happened? It seems obvious to me that they were simply reading it wrong.

Posted: **2003-05-05 10:47am**

I fully understand how the weapon cannot work. It gains energy from nowhere and then that same energy then disapears back to nowhere.

The only explanation a Trekkie would give would be to say that the "wave" was a moving bubble of subspace, the longer it traveled the more subspace leaked into real space. Somehow the Enterprise caused all that energy to just drain back into subspace when it popped it with a torp.

Complete bullshit of course.

I am looking at it though by taking everything in the episode at face value and believing everything said in the episode.

Posted: **2003-05-05 11:22am**

DocMoriartty wrote:I fully understand how the weapon cannot work. It gains energy from nowhere and then that same energy then disapears back to nowhere.

The only explanation a Trekkie would give would be to say that the "wave" was a moving bubble of subspace, the longer it traveled the more subspace leaked into real space. Somehow the Enterprise caused all that energy to just drain back into subspace when it popped it with a torp.

Complete bullshit of course.

I am looking at it though by taking everything in the episode at face value and believing everything said in the episode.

So you assume the characters and their sensor readings are perfectly infallible, even though they fully admitted they had no idea what was going on and did not expect any of this and it defied all of their theories?

Posted: **2003-05-05 11:27am**

Mr. Wong... Wether it is plausable in the real world or not, the Federation did it on screen. Instead of debate the physics we should just laugh at their idiocy for not developing this "technology" further to annihilate colonies.

Of course... This is unethical in the Federation.

Posted: **2003-05-05 11:36am**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:Mr. Wong... Wether it is plausable in the real world or not, the Federation did it on screen.

No, they created a wave which never did any serious damage to anything except for a tiny drone. It was weak enough that they were able to fly through it, yet they kept thinking it was a planet-smasher.

They did NOT do it onscreen. We did NOT see a planet-smasher. All we saw was them believing this thing might be capable of becoming a planet-smasher if allowed to continue growing exponentially forever, under the assumption that it would do so. Since when does such an assumption become "did it on screen?"

Instead of debate the physics we should just laugh at their idiocy for not developing this "technology" further to annihilate colonies.

Or they figured out where they went wrong and never bothered because it wouldn't actually work?

Of course... This is unethical in the Federation.

Everything is unethical in the Federation ...

Posted: **2003-05-05 11:40am**

Wong I'm not even going to bother clearing that up with quotes... But...

You said: "No, they created a wave which never did any serious amage to anything except for a tiny drone. It was weak enough that they were able to fly through it, yet they kept thinking it was a planet-smasher..."

I never SAID they created a planet smasher, by "they did it on-screen" I meant that they actually created the wave. Seeing as they saw this wave as destructive I believe we can assume that with further development this wave could be made into a weapon.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you missed my point.

Posted: **2003-05-05 11:45am**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:I never SAID they created a planet smasher, by "they did it on-screen" I meant that they actually created the wave. Seeing as they saw this wave as destructive I believe we can assume that with further development this wave could be made into a weapon.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you missed my point.

Sorry, the thread was about "heavy weapons", and this weapon was never shown to be powerful enough to destroy a GCS (never mind a planet), so I don't see why it qualifies.

Posted: **2003-05-05 11:56am**

Darth Wong wrote:Sorry, the thread was about "heavy weapons", and this weapon was never shown to be powerful enough to destroy a GCS (never mind a planet), so I don't see why it qualifies.

I'll say it one more time, and [/b]one[/b] more time alone...
With further development, this wave could be developed into a weapon.

Are you tired, Mr. Wong?

Posted: **2003-05-05 12:57pm**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:I'll say it one more time, and [/b]one[/b] more time alone... With further development, this wave could be developed into a weapon.

And I will say it one more time: there is no evidence that it would ever have the capabilities you think it will have.

Are you tired, Mr. Wong?

Even if I were, I would still be right.

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:12pm**

Darth Wong wrote:And I will say it one more time: there is no evidence that it would ever have the capabilities you think it will have.

The way I see it is this...
They had the technology to "launch" a wave toward a planet. Of course this was intended to reach the planet safely and efficiently but it didn't work out this way. The wave increased in power until the crew of the Enterprise D considered it dangerous and destructive and executed a plan to stop it.

This technology obviously utilises a potentially dangerous force (the wave) and a targetting system, what is wrong with assuming that with further research it could be converted into a purely military technology?

You said there is no evidence that it could ever have the capabilities I think it could have, but there is on-screen evidence that it is potentially very dangerous technology.

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:21pm**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:They had the technology to "launch" a wave toward a planet. Of course this was intended to reach the planet safely and efficiently but it didn't work out this way. The wave increased in power until the crew of the Enterprise D considered it dangerous and destructive and executed a plan to stop it.

You could say the same thing about a spread of torpedoes.

This technology obviously utilises a potentially dangerous force (the wave) and a targetting system, what is wrong with assuming that with further research it could be converted into a purely military technology?

Spend time and money developing a special-use weapon that is not known to be more destructive than a single spread of photon torpedoes and is not controllable? Replace pinpoint precision weapons with one that spreads out its effects over a large area and contains no guidance system or failsafes?

You said there is no evidence that it could ever have the capabilities I think it could have, but there is on-screen evidence that it is potentially very dangerous technology.

Not dangerous enough to destroy a GCS. No more powerful than a single full-powered salvo from a Romulan warbird, based on "Tin Man", and with much less tactical flexibility.

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:39pm**

Darth Wong:
"You could say the same thing about a spread of torpedoes."

Photon torpedoes don't increase in yield over distance. (I know that in the episode this was a fluke but surely they can re-create it.)

Darth Wong:
"Spend time and money developing a special-use weapon that is not known to be more destructive than a single spread of photon torpedoes and is not controllable? Replace pinpoint precision weapons with one that spreads out its effects over a large area and contains no guidance system or failsafes?"

Well, the Federation wouldn't do it for moralistic reasons... But if I was running an empire, and I could use this technology to potentially wipe-out enemy colonies that are massive distances away... Oh yeah!

Darth Wong:
"Not dangerous enough to destroy a GCS. No more powerful than a single full-powered salvo from a Romulan warbird, based on "Tin Man", and with much less tactical flexibility."

If I recall, the crew of the Enterprise D had a time limit to wipe out this wave before it got too powerful or something? Not sure, I'll have to watch the episode again, I'm sure I have it on DVD. I am positive that the wave grew more powerful over time though, and I'm sure there was a reference to it being capable of wiping out the colony on the recieving end.

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:47pm**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:
If I recall, the crew of the Enterprise D had a time limit to wipe out this wave before it got too powerful or something? Not sure, I'll have to watch the episode again, I'm sure I have it on DVD. I am positive that the wave grew more powerful over time though, and I'm sure there was a reference to it being capable of wiping out the colony on the recieving end.

Even if the wave was not that dangerous this shows how stupidly things are done in the Federation. Why the hell would you aim something like this at a planet people were living on at the time?

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:51pm**

DocMoriartty wrote:Even if the wave was not that dangerous this shows how stupidly things are done in the Federation. Why the hell would you aim something like this at a planet people were living on at the time?

Because the Federation are a bunch of pacifistic fools. I still believe this technology should've and could've been developed into a weapon.

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:52pm**

IIRC all it took was a single torpedo to disperse the wave....some weapon.

Sensor tech: "Sir, we have a monstrous subspace wave heading towards the base."

Imperial COmmander: "Quickly launch a protoin torpedo, better yet, make that a concussion missile, I don't want to make unneccessary expenditures from our stores."

"Yes Commander."

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:54pm**

EoD, stop banging your head against this.

The actual damage the Soliton Wave could potentially cause is indeterminate, but it was not powerful enough to destroy a single shielded starship. It could be stopped by a single spread of photon torpedoes. It requires a stationary launch facility (i.e., stationary strategic target) of indeterminate size and expense. The ability of the destination's "scattering field" to dissipate the wave (even after it "grew") was never tested, so there might be a simple defense. A standard Federation starship was able to outrun the wave, so it's not a particularly rapid delivery.

In every category, it looks like one starship would be a more efficient use of resources than a Soliton Wave generator. I once made the same argument you're trying to make, but after seeing it shot down with the greatest of ease, I had sense enough to drop it. I suggest that you do, too.

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:55pm**

Stravo wrote:IIRC all it took was a single torpedo to disperse the wave....some weapon.

Sensor tech: "Sir, we have a monstrous subspace wave heading towards the base."

Imperial COmmander: "Quickly launch a protoin torpedo, better yet, make that a concussion missile, I don't want to make unneccessary expenditures from our stores."

"Yes Commander."

Yes, a photon torpedo dispersed the wave. This is the only flaw I see if thinking of this wave as a possible weapon... However, this wave increases in power as it travels, maybe in advanced stages a torpedo would have no effect?

Posted: **2003-05-05 01:56pm**

Ted C wrote:EoD, stop banging your head against this.

I'm banging my head angainst it because I believe the wave was cool. Simple reason, but it's enough for me.

Posted: **2003-05-05 02:26pm**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:
Ted C wrote:EoD, stop banging your head against this.
I'm banging my head angainst it because I believe the wave was cool. Simple reason, but it's enough for me.

You're also assuming that 1) it really did gain power from nowhere and 2) would continue to do so indefinitely.

The first was probably a miscalculation of the power originally fed into it; its total power even after all of this imaginary buildup was insufficient to outrun or destroy a single Federation starship and it was easily dispersed with no ill effects; it is not necessary to invoke such silly explanations. And the second assumption is simply indefensible. If I push down my gas pedal, my car accelerates. Does this mean it will continue to accelerate forever as long as I keep that gas pedal down? And that I should develop a super-kinetic weapon based on this fantastic extrapolation-based weapon potential?

Posted: **2003-05-05 02:59pm**

Darth Wong wrote:Snip

Again, it was on-screen, the wave gained energy as it travelled.

Posted: **2003-05-05 03:13pm**

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Snip
Again, it was on-screen, the wave gained energy as it travelled.

No, they believed the wave was gaining energy as it travelled. We never saw the wave do anything which required great energy, nor did we see any evidence that it actually gained energy through movement, nor did we see any evidence that it is reasonable to assume infinite extrapolation. You can ignore the point if you like, but it remains. You have nothing but questionable supposition to work with.

Do you know what "onscreen" means? If we saw that in real life, would we say "well, they thought that if it continued it would be apocalyptic, therefore it's true?"

Posted: **2003-05-05 03:22pm**

Actually we did see it gain energy. It started out pushing the sled vehicle. Then it grew in power and destroyed it. It continued to grow in power AND speed to the point where it could seriously threaten a GCS and nearly outrun it.

Posted: **2003-05-05 03:27pm**

Alyeska wrote:Actually we did see it gain energy. It started out pushing the sled vehicle. Then it grew in power and destroyed it. It continued to grow in power AND speed to the point where it could seriously threaten a GCS and nearly outrun it.

Either that, or it was merely narrowing. If you take a soliton wave in a channel which has parallel walls, it will maintain its size and continue for a long time. If you take a soliton wave in a channel which narrows, it will increase in height until it breaks and fails.

That's why deep-water waves of only a few metres height become towering tidal waves as they approach shore. They haven't actually gained an iota of energy; they are merely being reconfigured. It only LOOKS like they've gained energy to a scientifically naive observer.

I reiterate: there are many ways to interpret this, and the crew chose the dumbest possible way. That doesn't mean we should.

Posted: **2003-05-05 03:52pm**

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Actually we did see it gain energy. It started out pushing the sled vehicle. Then it grew in power and destroyed it. It continued to grow in power AND speed to the point where it could seriously threaten a GCS and nearly outrun it.
Either that, or it was merely narrowing. If you take a soliton wave in a channel which has parallel walls, it will maintain its size and continue for a long time. If you take a soliton wave in a channel which narrows, it will increase in height until it breaks and fails.

That's why deep-water waves of only a few metres height become towering tidal waves as they approach shore. They haven't actually gained an iota of energy; they are merely being reconfigured. It only LOOKS like they've gained energy to a scientifically naive observer.

I reiterate: there are many ways to interpret this, and the crew chose the dumbest possible way. That doesn't mean we should.

There is still the fact that it was accelerating. That is why the Enterprise had to travel through the wave rather than around it. There was no time to travel around, only through.

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