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I heard something about an upgrade of the Galaxy class in the Dominion War, what is different about them?

There are a variety of differences to the Galaxy class that were incorperated into the series. Highlights are armored spines, enlarged or modified main shuttlebays, and added weapon systems. Other upgrades indicated by some of the ST novels indicate improved M/AM generators for greater power allowing increased shield and phaser firepower. DS9 TM indicates that several Galaxy class ships were equiped with significantly more weapons then normal (more then just a couple added phaser arrays) as well as Galaxy class ships going with parts of the internal volume missing (unecesary systems) allowing the ship to be fit with more torpedo stocks.

Alyeska, the placement of the armor on the Dominion War GCS has bothered me for some time. It doesn't seem to be protecting much.

What do you think of a hypothesis that the armor is actually there to allow the ship to go even faster? We know from several episodes that the limiting factor on GCS speed is not the warp-core or the engines, but rather the structural integrity of the ship, which is strained at high warp speeds. Now, the "spine" of the GCS, which has been armored in the variant we are discussing here, would be a stress point for the ship itself. I would, thus, expect that additional strength there would help to allow the ship to withstand speeds in excess of standard GCS's, that the modification was made in an effort to allow the ship to travel even faster, and by extension that any combat advantages it offered would be purely secondary.

The other theory is that the entire ship has received additional protection to critical areas, and that it was only in that area that we clearly saw the modification in question.

I guess you could also argue that the rear of the spine was somehow a vulnerable portion of the ship, and that SF saw fit to protect that more than the other sections, but that doesn't strike me as being too likely. We've seen GCS's duke it out with other ships in NUMEROUS instances, and I am having trouble recalling any hits to that portion of the ship.

Anybody have additional thoughts on the matter?

Master of Ossus wrote:Alyeska, the placement of the armor on the Dominion War GCS has bothered me for some time. It doesn't seem to be protecting much.

What do you think of a hypothesis that the armor is actually there to allow the ship to go even faster? We know from several episodes that the limiting factor on GCS speed is not the warp-core or the engines, but rather the structural integrity of the ship, which is strained at high warp speeds. Now, the "spine" of the GCS, which has been armored in the variant we are discussing here, would be a stress point for the ship itself. I would, thus, expect that additional strength there would help to allow the ship to withstand speeds in excess of standard GCS's, that the modification was made in an effort to allow the ship to travel even faster, and by extension that any combat advantages it offered would be purely secondary.

The other theory is that the entire ship has received additional protection to critical areas, and that it was only in that area that we clearly saw the modification in question.

I guess you could also argue that the rear of the spine was somehow a vulnerable portion of the ship, and that SF saw fit to protect that more than the other sections, but that doesn't strike me as being too likely. We've seen GCS's duke it out with other ships in NUMEROUS instances, and I am having trouble recalling any hits to that portion of the ship.

Anybody have additional thoughts on the matter?

Actualy your first idea is the most logical. The GCS was designed to primarily operate with the main Impulse system while the two saucer ones were to be used only in emergencies. With the onset of the war the GCS has been seen to use all three Impuse systems at once quite frequently. It could be the spine has been increased in strength to relieve stresses on the GCS itself. That allows the GCS to survive higher acceleration rates that using all three Impulse engines at once would cause. The added benefit is that anyone who fires on the spine and neck of a GCS to try breaking it in half will have a harder time.

Thank you for the information!

Jeremy wrote:Thank you for the information!

Just to let you know, these variants are commonly known as the War GCS type. The most impressive War GCS is the USS Venture which has added phaser arrays for improved firepower and coverage. There are speculative variants with much large weapon capacities, but these are non-canon.

Alyeska wrote: Actualy your first idea is the most logical. The GCS was designed to primarily operate with the main Impulse system while the two saucer ones were to be used only in emergencies. With the onset of the war the GCS has been seen to use all three Impuse systems at once quite frequently. It could be the spine has been increased in strength to relieve stresses on the GCS itself. That allows the GCS to survive higher acceleration rates that using all three Impulse engines at once would cause. The added benefit is that anyone who fires on the spine and neck of a GCS to try breaking it in half will have a harder time.

I agree. That's the best explanation for the somewhat unusual placement of the armor plating. That's actually a pretty handy upgrade, if I do say so myself.

Thanks for the information--again!

Now they just need to put real weapons on the ships instead of laser pointers. j/k .... or am I?

Also, Starfleet first intorduced the quantom torpeado, which is supposed to be two to five times more powerful than their photonic ancertors.

Where did you get that number? I've never heard of a solid figure as to how much stronger a Q-Torp is.

Darth Pounder wrote:Where did you get that number? I've never heard of a solid figure as to how much stronger a Q-Torp is.

I picked it up during ST:FC. The explosions coming from the impacts of the Q-torps are much larger than those of p-torps. Also, in DS9, there was an episode where an Excelsior went up against the Defiant. When it could not bring down the sheilds, they were ordered to use quantoms, which they said would blow the Defiant apart. Most of it is guess work, but they are atleast two times more powerful.

But I could be wrong.

An example of the sheer badness of the War Galaxys is the battle to retake DS9. Not one of the Galaxys during that battle were destroyed, yet apparently, they were kicking ass and not taking names.

I consider war variants to be the equilivent of battleships. Large, well defended and heavily armed.

Aya wrote:An example of the sheer badness of the War Galaxys is the battle to retake DS9. Not one of the Galaxys during that battle were destroyed, yet apparently, they were kicking ass and not taking names.

I consider war variants to be the equilivent of battleships. Large, well defended and heavily armed.

Indeed. The War GCS is a very impressive ship. They even indicate "Galaxy Squadrons" in Sacrafice Angels (retaking of DS9). I wouldn't be surprised if there were formations of War GCSs operating together and mowing through unprepared Dominion formations.

Aya wrote:An example of the sheer badness of the War Galaxys is the battle to retake DS9. Not one of the Galaxys during that battle were destroyed, yet apparently, they were kicking ass and not taking names. :twisted:

I consider war variants to be the equilivent of battleships. Large, well defended and heavily armed.

Odd that the Federation would disguise their warships as "exploration vessels."

Well maybe not that odd after all...

The War-modified GCS is a totally different animal from the Enterprise-D. It's better armored, possibly faster, and with a much heavier weapons loadout.

I've often thought it'd be neat to simply refit extra saucer sections for the GCS so they can be modified on an "as-needed" basis, but it might be excessively expensive to do so.

Possible saucer refits:
1) Troop transport. Lacks impulse engines, lacks big staterooms, designed to bunk large numbers of ground troops. More shuttlecraft. Possibly an ability to carry ground vehicles (once the Federation gets some decent ground troops and vehicles).
2) Starship combat. Less room for personnel, more room for extra phasers, torpedo launchers, and magazines. Limited shuttlecraft capability.
3) Standard Jack-of-all-trades saucer section, as seen on the Enterprise-D.

The Enterprise-D used a "cruise ship" saucer section, not a jack-of-all-trades type.

Drooling Iguana wrote:The Enterprise-D used a "cruise ship" saucer section, not a jack-of-all-trades type.

Incorrect. The Saucer of the GCS class is designed with modular capabilities. You open up panneling on the outside and remove sections or insert sections as needed. The Enterprise had a layout for an Explorer with science capabilities and room for civilians. The DS9 TM states that many GCSs had their internal volume very different, some with weapons, some with troops, some were just standard Galaxies with all non-critical non-war internal volume left out so that the ship was finished in the construction yards quicker. In that sense EVERY Galaxy class has the Jack-of-all-trades type saucer.

Kerneth wrote: I've often thought it'd be neat to simply refit extra saucer sections for the GCS so they can be modified on an "as-needed" basis, but it might be excessively expensive to do so.

That's a huge waste of resources. You could likely build a couple Defiant's for the cost of a Galaxy saucer which would make better warships, and minor modifcations could allow it to haul troops.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Kerneth wrote: I've often thought it'd be neat to simply refit extra saucer sections for the GCS so they can be modified on an "as-needed" basis, but it might be excessively expensive to do so.

That's a huge waste of resources. You could likely build a couple Defiant's for the cost of a Galaxy saucer which would make better warships, and minor modifcations could allow it to haul troops.

The Defiant is a combat warship, that is all. Using it to carry troops is a waste of its capabilities. The advantage behind a Galaxy class is in its survivability and total firepower with its shields. We already know they can build combat versions that will kick the crap out of other ships, it just depends on the resources they wish to expend.

Now of course in a per size ratio the Defiant kicks ass, but this is always true, especialy in real life. The larger you make the ship, the less combat effective it is for its size. However, with size comes other advantages such as armor loads and more powerful weapons that could never be put on a smaller ship. In this case the Defiant might still be more combat effective, but a Galaxy-X has a major bonus going for it with its phaser cannon.

I seem to remember reading in a Trek site, i while ago mind you, that a Defiant class ships outguns a Galaxy Class ship by a factor of 4. How would that work against the War version?

Darth Pounder wrote:I seem to remember reading in a Trek site, i while ago mind you, that a Defiant class ships outguns a Galaxy Class ship by a factor of 4. How would that work against the War version?

I find that hugely hard to believe that the defiant was stronger then a galaxy class, hell a upgraded excellsor class ship a design 80 years older then the galaxy class only just lost to the defiant. and would have won had it not been for the addition of the ablative amour.

Wrath wrote:

Darth Pounder wrote:I seem to remember reading in a Trek site, i while ago mind you, that a Defiant class ships outguns a Galaxy Class ship by a factor of 4. How would that work against the War version?

I find that hugely hard to believe that the defiant was stronger then a galaxy class, hell a upgraded excellsor class ship a design 80 years older then the galaxy class only just lost to the defiant. and would have won had it not been for the addition of the ablative amour.

A Defiant class does actually pack more firepower then a TNG era GCS. A defiant carries 4 pulse phasers, 3 type 8 phasers, and 120 Quantum torpedoes, whitle the TNG GCS carries 250 older model photon topredoes and 10 type 10 phasers. Using my Night Terrors values and the sites work on phasers, (though this works out to be about the same using pretty much any set of values for the weapons) you get total outputs of all torps and one set of phaser fire equalling 6.44 GT and 4.7 GT respectively. Of course, once the GCS gets the Dominion War upgrades it can lay out 14.8 GT.

As for the Lakota fight, keep in mind that it appears that Worf was trying to avoid destroying the ship based on how often he missed.

Ender wrote:A Defiant class does actually pack more firepower then a TNG era GCS. A defiant carries 4 pulse phasers, 3 type 8 phasers, and 120 Quantum torpedoes, whitle the TNG GCS carries 250 older model photon topredoes and 10 type 10 phasers. Using my Night Terrors values and the sites work on phasers, (though this works out to be about the same using pretty much any set of values for the weapons) you get total outputs of all torps and one set of phaser fire equalling 6.44 GT and 4.7 GT respectively. Of course, once the GCS gets the Dominion War upgrades it can lay out 14.8 GT.

As for the Lakota fight, keep in mind that it appears that Worf was trying to avoid destroying the ship based on how often he missed.

in that fight both where trying to disable

as for the comparision we see a GCS prerefit take repeated hits of 3 dominion fighters and still remain warp capable without shields , could a defeant handle that sort of fire power? and remeber the standard defaint class didn't come with abative amour pre dominion war either.

Alyeska wrote:
The Defiant is a combat warship, that is all. Using it to carry troops is a waste of its capabilities.

No shit Sherlock. That's why my plan called for building them for combat, rather then building multiple secures for a galaxy, which could just receive simple modifications to carry the troops.

Here is a stupid question from a stupid person, myself: Could they transport (beam) sections of the ship in and out of place? I know they have (or had) difficulties in intra-ship transporting but I would think a dock yard shouldn't have any trouble using a large transporter to switch modules in and out of a ship like the Galaxy as long as it had a good sensors read.