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Ignoring the issue of firing through the cloak and some of the targeting issues, how would an open battle go between these two ships? I am talking about one in which both sides want the other dead.

Err... Wasn't the Ent in Nemesis a Sov II?

And wasn't Shinzon only preserving the Enterprise for Picard?

NecronLord wrote:Err... Wasn't the Ent in Nemesis a Sov II?

And wasn't Shinzon only preserving the Enterprise for Picard?

Indeed. But at the same time look how much damage that Picard was able to cause to the Scimitar when he fired his Quantum torpedo salvos. The Sovereign MK2 has the advantage of superior torpedo launchers and the most powerful weapon, Quantum Torpedoes.

From what I saw from the Nemesis battle, this is one thing I concluded. Schinzon HAD to cloak the Scimitar because of the Enterprise was able to get an easy lock, Picard could have destroyed the Scimitar in short order with concentrated torpedo, phaser, and quantum torpedo fire.

It comes down to who can survive the other, I think. The E-E was fighting against a cloaked target, without its main reactor. That says something. Someone has pointed out the Scimitar appears to lack the foreward disruptor coverage it should have, while the E-E excells at foreward coverage in all respects. With an easy lock I think the E-E could take this.

The quantums hitting required a psychic link between Diana and the Reman to hit, so unless were ignoring cloak all together I don't give the Sovie a chance, it had many photon torp launchers and disruptors that it wasn't using in the fight, and by the time Scizon decide to kill him he had already wasted too much time and then decided to use the radiation weapon, and the Ent was depleated of weapons. I think the fight would go much like it did at the begining when they knocked out the Core, the ship is overwhelmed before they know what hit them.

Alyeska wrote: some of the targeting issues

D'oh, well, that depends on how many Qtorps the Ent has(they seemed to have few, wiether if that was because they were in need of resupply when they had to hurry to Romulus or because they use lots of photon torps and just have a few Qtorps for finishing off the job, or we just never saw most of them fired).

The Enterprise couldn't survive a frontal attack from the Scimitar for very long. I acknowledge that. However, if the Enterprise has an open target to attack on the Scimitar then things are going to seriously hurt for the Scimitar. Multiple phaser shots, over a dozen Quantum torpedoes, and several dozen photon torpedoes in a short span.

Now, given how much damage Quantum Torpedoes were causing, I can see any ship groups armed with many of them taking on the Scimitar. Just three Defiants IMO could take the Scimitar. Each can volley 6 Quantum torpedoes in very quick succession. Throw in the PPC fire and the Scimitar would take some serious damage and reduce its combat effectiveness.

Something I was wondering, were those normal Qtorps? I'll admit I haven't seen anything but VOY in 2 years, but I don't remember Qtorps being that large. Perhaps a Heavy Qtorp? Or am I just confused?

Chris O'Farrell and I have been playing with the idea of a Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo. We already know they have Mark-4, Mark-5, and Mark-6 Photon Torpedoes and each is progressively stronger. The Quantum Torpedo on the Defiant class does seem to be measurably different than the ones on the Sovereign.

Now here is an evil thought. Since this is after the war the Federation could put its most powerful weapons on its ships. In the Dominion war the Mark-5 torpedo was primarily used. Imagine the Mark-6 torpedo on the Enterprise, that thing is more powerful then the Mark-1 Quantum (If the Isoton ratios are to be believed). Then we have the Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo which is obviously more powerful then the torpedoes it was firing... That would put the Scimitar shields at a very impressive power level.

Well, comparitively. As some at SB.com would say, the total impressiveness still depends on what you roll

Alyeska wrote:

NecronLord wrote:Err... Wasn't the Ent in Nemesis a Sov II?

And wasn't Shinzon only preserving the Enterprise for Picard?

Indeed. But at the same time look how much damage that Picard was able to cause to the Scimitar when he fired his Quantum torpedo salvos. The Sovereign MK2 has the advantage of superior torpedo launchers and the most powerful weapon, Quantum Torpedoes.

From what I saw from the Nemesis battle, this is one thing I concluded. Schinzon HAD to cloak the Scimitar because of the Enterprise was able to get an easy lock, Picard could have destroyed the Scimitar in short order with concentrated torpedo, phaser, and quantum torpedo fire.

From what I remember from the movie, the Ent-E's barrage of quantum torpedoes did damage the Scimitar. However, that only brought the shields of the Scimitar down to approximately 70 percent. If Shinzon didn't want to play with Picard the Enterprise would not have survived. The Scimitar is clearly superior to the Sovereign-class starships.

Indeed, with the Borgs willingness stay still when fighing, and the extensiveness of the Scimitar's weaponry and shielding, this thing maybe able to take a Cube on it's own.

Ronaldo wrote: From what I remember from the movie, the Ent-E's barrage of quantum torpedoes did damage the Scimitar. However, that only brought the shields of the Scimitar down to approximately 70 percent. If Shinzon didn't want to play with Picard the Enterprise would not have survived. The Scimitar is clearly superior to the Sovereign-class starships.

Actually, I think somewhere in here it has been decided that that barrage knocked out the primary shield of the Scimitar completely and left the secondary shields at 70%.

Honestly these two were pretty evenly matched considering that the E-E had done that a.) With pretty much only torpedos and b.) After having been on SECONDARY power for a long time.

Ronaldo wrote:From what I remember from the movie, the Ent-E's barrage of quantum torpedoes did damage the Scimitar. However, that only brought the shields of the Scimitar down to approximately 70 percent. If Shinzon didn't want to play with Picard the Enterprise would not have survived. The Scimitar is clearly superior to the Sovereign-class starships.

Yes, I know. However, note just how much damage that one strike did. If the Enterprise could fire all of its weapons on a clear target, there would have been much more extensive damage. Furthermore, the Quantum Torpedoes caused extensive damage through the shields and knocked out the cloaking device.

anarchistbunny wrote:Indeed, with the Borgs willingness stay still when fighing, and the extensiveness of the Scimitar's weaponry and shielding, this thing maybe able to take a Cube on it's own.

No. A single Borg Cube walked through 40 Federation ships like a hot knife through butter. Task Force Omega and its nine ships would have been more then sufficent to destroy the Scimitar. A Borg Cube would waste the Scimitar with relative ease.

Alyeska wrote:Chris O'Farrell and I have been playing with the idea of a Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo. We already know they have Mark-4, Mark-5, and Mark-6 Photon Torpedoes and each is progressively stronger. The Quantum Torpedo on the Defiant class does seem to be measurably different than the ones on the Sovereign.

Now here is an evil thought. Since this is after the war the Federation could put its most powerful weapons on its ships. In the Dominion war the Mark-5 torpedo was primarily used. Imagine the Mark-6 torpedo on the Enterprise, that thing is more powerful then the Mark-1 Quantum (If the Isoton ratios are to be believed). Then we have the Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo which is obviously more powerful then the torpedoes it was firing... That would put the Scimitar shields at a very impressive power level.

So the order from weakest to strongest is:

Mk 4
Mk 5
Mk 6
Mk 1
Mk 2

???

I missed something. Please clarify.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Chris O'Farrell and I have been playing with the idea of a Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo. We already know they have Mark-4, Mark-5, and Mark-6 Photon Torpedoes and each is progressively stronger. The Quantum Torpedo on the Defiant class does seem to be measurably different than the ones on the Sovereign.

Now here is an evil thought. Since this is after the war the Federation could put its most powerful weapons on its ships. In the Dominion war the Mark-5 torpedo was primarily used. Imagine the Mark-6 torpedo on the Enterprise, that thing is more powerful then the Mark-1 Quantum (If the Isoton ratios are to be believed). Then we have the Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo which is obviously more powerful then the torpedoes it was firing... That would put the Scimitar shields at a very impressive power level.

So the order from weakest to strongest is:

Mk 4
Mk 5
Mk 6
Mk 1
Mk 2

???

I missed something. Please clarify.

MK-4 PT
MK-5 PT
MK-1 QT
MK-6 PT
MK-2 QT

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Chris O'Farrell and I have been playing with the idea of a Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo. We already know they have Mark-4, Mark-5, and Mark-6 Photon Torpedoes and each is progressively stronger. The Quantum Torpedo on the Defiant class does seem to be measurably different than the ones on the Sovereign.

Now here is an evil thought. Since this is after the war the Federation could put its most powerful weapons on its ships. In the Dominion war the Mark-5 torpedo was primarily used. Imagine the Mark-6 torpedo on the Enterprise, that thing is more powerful then the Mark-1 Quantum (If the Isoton ratios are to be believed). Then we have the Mark-2 Quantum Torpedo which is obviously more powerful then the torpedoes it was firing... That would put the Scimitar shields at a very impressive power level.

So the order from weakest to strongest is:

Mk 4
Mk 5
Mk 6
Mk 1
Mk 2

???

I missed something. Please clarify.

What you are missing is the background knowledge of how missiles and upgrades are noted. Since the QT is different, it gets a new classification from which the upgrades and variations are noted.

Ahhhhhhhh...

Mk 4-6 Photons, and Mk 1, 2 Quantums.

I thought he was talking pure Q-torps.

Back on topic... After reviewing more information regarding the Nemesis battle scene I have come to the conclussion that three, thats right, THREE MK-2 Sovereigns would be hard pressed to defeat the Scimitar. The Scimitar has enough shielding to survive a fully barage of weapons fire from the Enterprise for 160 seconds. Before this the Scimitar had already taken 15 Quantum Torpedoes and 33 Photon Torpedoes. With cloak down the Enterprise no doubt was firing its weapons at or near full refire rates. The Enterprise exhausted most of its weapons durring this time span (most logical conclussion) and only dropped the Scimitar to 70% shields.

Whoa. I knew the E-E fired a lot in that last scene, but... whoa. I'm thinking if your Mark 2 QT idea is right then the Scimitar is one #%$&**#@$#!!! kick-butt ship!! (For startrek, of course). 15 QT + 33 PT, then 160 sec. of full auto fire all weapons...... plus phaser strikes that wasted Sona shields and Disrupter hits from the Valadors. Drool. I retract my earlier opinion.

A minor correction to my previous statement. The Enterprise fired 33 Photons but only hit the Scimitar with 27.

But yes, the Scimitar kicks serious ass. It has a LOT of shield power. Imagine how powerful the Scimitar could have been if the stupid folding wings were made solid and the thelaron element was removed.

Alyeska wrote:A minor correction to my previous statement. The Enterprise fired 33 Photons but only hit the Scimitar with 27.

But yes, the Scimitar kicks serious ass. It has a LOT of shield power. Imagine how powerful the Scimitar could have been if the stupid folding wings were made solid and the thelaron element was removed.

If the Scimitar could prepare the thelaron weapon and fire it while cloaked it would be extremely effective against fixed targets, such as planets and star bases.

I think that the Scimitar would win in a VERY long engagement. As has been pointed out, a majority of the torpedoes fired on screen actually did hit the Scimitar, but its shields were not substantially drained by them. The Scimitar, however, did seem to suffer from serious "leakage," and did not have a high RoF for a ship with that many weapons.

On the other hand, I think that this is a somewhat unfair scenario. The Scimitar was clearly designed around the ability to engage targets while cloaked. If you take away its biggest advantage, and an advantage that it was built around, you start running into problems with the accuracy of the projections.

Alyeska wrote:But yes, the Scimitar kicks serious ass. It has a LOT of shield power. Imagine how powerful the Scimitar could have been if the stupid folding wings were made solid and the thelaron element was removed.

A Scimitar-class Warbird with fixed wings, and quantum singularity cores to replace the thaleron generator would be an excellent Romulan dreadnought-type battleship.