Just watched "The Jem'Hadar"

Sidious · Post by **Sidious** » 2003-05-30 09:39pm

OK so I just finished Season2 of DS9 on DVD and the final episode "The Jem'Hadar" and I find myself just as annoyed as the first time I saw it when originally aired.

Im refering to the absolutley pitiful fight the USS Odyssey puts up against the Jem Hadar's 3 attack ships.

During the fight we see the largest most powerful class of vessel the Federation has (at the time) fire TWICE. We see no torps used, she fires her ventral saucer phasers once as the first Jem'Hadar fighter comes in range and we see her fire again as the runabouts chase a fighter off of her.

Once they realize the shields are useless against the JemHadar's weapons they actually transfer all shield power to the phasers yet we still see a total of two shots. Are they firing more off screen? I dont know, it doesnt seem like it. We see the battle from within the runabouts cockpits and we dont see phaser fire coming from off camera at any point.

I realize they the Odyssey was taking heavy damage the entire battle but the weapons were not knocked offline until they very end when they begin their retreat.

So whats the reason for the pitiful firing rate? (other than crappy writing) Same thing happens in Generations, one phaser shot at the BoP then nothing.

We've seen Galaxy class ships firing multiple times in a row in TNG episodes while taking fire (Yesterday's Enterprise). Is it just poor tactical direction?

This was the first real contact between the Federation and the Jem'Hadar and I wanted to see multiple phaser banks firing and torps flying in response to the Jem'Hadar's fire, instead I get 2 shots, no torps and the Odyssey blown to hell while limping away.

Im not saying the Odyssey should have won the fight, I just wanted a better fight from the most powerful class of starhip in the fed fleet at the time lol.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-05-31 03:10am

Actualy the Oddsey SHOULD have won the fight even WITHOUT its shield grid. I was as pissed as you by the pathetic 'fight' we were given. Of course they were simply trying to impress upon us how badass the Jem'Hadar were by blowing a GCS just like the Enterprise-D sky high in a matter of minuites. But I wish they had used like 5 groups of 3 attack ships or something and simply swarmed her by shear numbers, the Oddyesy taking out over half of them in the engagement none the less. THEN the remaining ships at the end all ramming into her and taking her out. I think that would leave a bigger impression of just how hardcore the Jem'Hadar play.

But sigh.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-05-31 04:28am

^Hear hear! Well said.

Worse death scene ever! [/comicbook guy]

Sidious · Post by **Sidious** » 2003-05-31 04:45am

I would have been more impressed had they let the Odyssey limp back to the wormhole and federation space. Would have said "hey guess what? we just handed one of your baddest ships its ass in under 10minutes"

Instead they "show how far their willing to go" with a suicide run. Big deal, anyone can kamikaze into something when its already heavily damaged and its weapons are offline.

Feh...

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-05-31 12:09pm

Ech, this battle was disappointing.

It would have been better if the GCS could at least have destroyed 1 enemy ship. Then have the ramming scene.

But that ramming was brilliant, an absoloute first for Trek on that magnitude, and they did it fantastically well.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-05-31 07:07pm

I'd bet if Captain Jellicho was in command of the Odyssey, that fight would have been far different!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-31 07:27pm

Lord Poe wrote:I'd bet if Captain Jellicho was in command of the Odyssey, that fight would have been far different!

You know, we never actually saw Jellico in battle. We only saw that he was a hard-nosed military type (how odd, on a military vessel

) and that he laid a wicked trap for the Cardies.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-31 07:37pm

I think it's likely the weapons need to warm up. I'd expect that with torpedoes, which must be loaded with anti matter first and you wouldn't want too many ready to go since they likely have inferior containment fields. With phaser's it may be necessary to charge up the banks for a prolonged period to get off more then lone single shots. Now why neither E-D nor Odyssey did this ahead of time despite the huge threat of combat I don’t know. But then Starfleet is not known for competence.

Phaser's not feeding directly from the ships power supply fits with most evidence I believe.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2003-05-31 10:15pm

Sidious wrote:So whats the reason for the pitiful firing rate? (other than crappy writing) Same thing happens in Generations, one phaser shot at the BoP then nothing.

We've seen Galaxy class ships firing multiple times in a row in TNG episodes while taking fire (Yesterday's Enterprise). Is it just poor tactical direction?

This was the first real contact between the Federation and the Jem'Hadar and I wanted to see multiple phaser banks firing and torps flying in response to the Jem'Hadar's fire, instead I get 2 shots, no torps and the Odyssey blown to hell while limping away.

Im not saying the Odyssey should have won the fight, I just wanted a better fight from the most powerful class of starhip in the fed fleet at the time lol.

Maybe they spent the bulk of SFX budget on the Odyssey explosion and didnt have anything left over for more photons and phasers.

All things considering, I think the Odyssey did quiet well against an unknown and technologically superior opponent. It was able to fend off three opponents, while taking damage, and still would have been able to escape had it not been rammed.

Kintaro · Post by **Kintaro** » 2003-06-01 12:26am

I have not seen that episode myself, but I've heard of it's pretty crappy ending. Those wonderful DS9 writers.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-06-01 01:00am

Darth Wong wrote: You know, we never actually saw Jellico in battle. We only saw that he was a hard-nosed military type (how odd, on a military vessel ) and that he laid a wicked trap for the Cardies.

I don't know what show I have been watching but I never saw any Federation military vessels in TNG.

On the topic: You guys seem to forget that it isn't till around season 5 of DS9 that starfleet figures out they can fire more than one weapon at a time AND they can also fire more than 3 shots per battle, I bet the guy at SF R&D who figured that out got a condo on Risa.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-01 01:10am

TheDarkling wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: You know, we never actually saw Jellico in battle. We only saw that he was a hard-nosed military type (how odd, on a military vessel ) and that he laid a wicked trap for the Cardies.
I don't know what show I have been watching but I never saw any Federation military vessels in TNG.

"Aye sir"

On the topic: You guys seem to forget that it isn't till around season 5 of DS9 that starfleet figures out they can fire more than one weapon at a time AND they can also fire more than 3 shots per battle, I bet the guy at SF R&D who figured that out got a condo on Risa.

Er..the E-D fired all weapons in "Q-Who"

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-06-01 06:34am

Macross wrote:Maybe they spent the bulk of SFX budget on the Odyssey explosion and didnt have anything left over for more photons and phasers.

If thatsthe case why didn't they just re-use some old TNG footage?

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-01 10:41am

Regarding the lack of phasers fired: perhaps the initial Jem Hadar alpha strike damaged the ships power reserves? We know from Nemesis that there is not an unlimited supply of power for the phasers, maybe the GCS was caught completly by surprise?

It's been too long since I watched that episode, but the battle made me angry because of the pathetic fight the ship puts up, compared to the USS Galaxy in ToTP which kicks arse against the Cardassian OWP's ...

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-01 01:11pm

Just because you only see it fire phasers on screen twice does not mean that there were not shots fired off screen. And as for the Jem Hadar ramming to prove a point, it freaked the people out who saw it happen because the Odessy was retreating and instead of letting them leave the Jemmies did the suicide run. That shows how far they are willing to go in order to keep the Feds out of the Gamma quadrant.

Posbi · Post by **Posbi** » 2003-06-01 01:43pm

One thing I don't get about the wormhole:
The Dominion does have a tremendous military powerbase and shitloads of troops, yet even at that point three bugs was all they were willing to throw into the battlefield?
The moment the Odyssee came through the wormhole I actually would have expected it to be confronted with loads of fixed defense installations and a whole mobile assault group instead of those three fightercrafts on steroids.

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-06-01 01:49pm

ALI_G wrote:Regarding the lack of phasers fired: perhaps the initial Jem Hadar alpha strike damaged the ships power reserves? We know from Nemesis that there is not an unlimited supply of power for the phasers, maybe the GCS was caught completly by surprise?

It's been too long since I watched that episode, but the battle made me angry because of the pathetic fight the ship puts up, compared to the USS Galaxy in ToTP which kicks arse against the Cardassian OWP's ...

1. I don't think they were caught by surprise, before the Odyssey left DS9, the Captain knew perfectly well there would be a confrontation. He said something like

'Investigate the Jem' Hadar threat and retrieve Sisko etc'

And once in the Gamma Quadrant, the Odyssey detected the enemy ships well before they shot at the Odyssey. They were prepared for combat, and did their best to fend off the Jem 'Hadar.

Its lucky they found that crashed ship later on so they could poke it about and figure out how to adapt the Federation fleet's shields.

2. The Galaxy in ToTP? When was this? Is that a book?

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-01 02:16pm

Tears of the Prophets, season 6 DS9. No GCS was destroyed in the Dominion war on screen.

TurboPhaser · Post by **TurboPhaser** » 2003-06-01 02:20pm

Ah.

Could you see the name on the ship? You said it was the USS Galaxy. Class names are always called after the first ship, so I would be interested in seein the Galaxy even though it looks like all the other GCS's.

Yes, its good that they didnt destroy any more GCS's on DS9. I wonder why they didnt?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-06-01 02:30pm

Just because you only see it fire phasers on screen twice does not mean that there were not shots fired off screen

What it does mean is that the writers sucked because having the batte occur offscreen is a sucky-ass way to present a dramatic season conclusion.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-01 02:39pm

TurboPhaser wrote:Ah.

Could you see the name on the ship?

Yep, and reg. number.

Class names are always called after the first ship, so I would be interested in seein the Galaxy even though it looks like all the other GCS's.

If memory serves me right, you can see it in Way of the warrior, part II, and it is an upgraded GCS.

Yes, its good that they didnt destroy any more GCS's on DS9. I wonder why they didnt?

Because its cheaper to reuse dead Miranda's over and over again?

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2003-06-01 02:41pm

HemlockGrey wrote:
Just because you only see it fire phasers on screen twice does not mean that there were not shots fired off screen
What it does mean is that the writers sucked because having the batte occur offscreen is a sucky-ass way to present a dramatic season conclusion.

The writers do not decide the FX budget for the episode, however. Those battles are not cheap to create, and the death scene probably cost tens of thousands of dollars alone.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2003-06-01 10:41pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Macross wrote:Maybe they spent the bulk of SFX budget on the Odyssey explosion and didnt have anything left over for more photons and phasers.
If thatsthe case why didn't they just re-use some old TNG footage?

Probably because of some legal reason, but Im glad that they didnt use TNG footage, I hate it when they reuse footage. I would have looked awkward and out of place.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-06-01 11:56pm

Why is it so bloody hard for them to put together a decent battle? Are they truly so inept?

Er..the E-D fired all weapons in "Q-Who"

I think you're thinking of Best of Both Worlds, where it fires phasers from the nacelle pylons.

In the same vein, there's been better battle shots in other episodes... "Conundrum" showed the main ventral array blowing apart more than a half-dozen small targets in rapid succession; although admittedly they were lagging decades behind the Feds in technology.

"The Survivors" showed "rapid fire" with two salvos of six torpedoes in relatively short order, as well as multiple phaser strikes (with seemingly multiple arrays in use for the second salvo).

And supposedly (though I've yet to see it for myself) "Half a Life" shows an "impressive" (compared to the lethargic performances of other episodes, i.e. "Rascals", "Generations", and "The Jem'Hadar") battle sequence.

Why are these episodes "better"? What changes between these episodes and others?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-02 12:02am

Tears of the Prophets showed the USS Galaxy take a serious beating from a Cardassian OWP yet keep fighting. We know thanks to Nemesis that the Galaxy survived that fight. The Federation fixed the mistakes in the GCS line and turned it into a fairly decent close combat ship with the ability to take a serious pounding.

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