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Let me set up the situation, a Sovereign class vessel is in orbit of a fronteer planet. A warbird, not cloaked, enters the system. The Warbird comms the Federation vessel that they have rescued some Federation merchant crew from pirates. They wish to beam them onboard the Federation ship and the Federation vessels gives permission. The Sovereign captain is a bit suspicious and puts his ship on alert but leaves shields down to allow transporters. Just as the Fedartion ship expects the people to be beamed onboard, the Romulan ship opens fire.
Now, the question, will the Sovereign be able to opne fire or do you think it will be destroyed in the first volley?

The Sovereign wins this one easily. The D'Deridex class warbird barely outgunned a Galaxy class, although it had a heavy forward weapon biass which gave it twice the forward firepower of a Galaxy. On the other hand a Sovereign has more then three times the forward firepower of a Galaxy as well as superior shields and armor. The Sovereign survives the initial volley and then swiftly destroys the Warbird.

Alyeska wrote:On the other hand a Sovereign has more then three times the forward firepower of a Galaxy as well as superior shields and armor.

More phaser strips don't necessarily equate to more firepower, and I don't think it can vomit out Q-torps anywhere near as fast as the E-D could launch volleys of photorps (although I admit I'm basing this on "Yesterday's Enterprise", which is arguably a different E-D).

The Soveriegn should have been able to detect active weapons on the Warbird, so the scenario is not entirely plausible.

The armor isn't enough to save the Soveriegn; without shields, ST ships can't pack enough armor to make a big enough difference against a concentrated heavy attack... and "twice the forward firepower" of a GCS would be nothing to take lightly in a fully shielded SCS, let alone an unshielded SCS. Something critical (bridge, deflector dish, torp. turret, warp nacelles, phaser arrays) SHOULD be disabled or destroyed in the first volley, assuming the Romulan commander is good. Depending on what it is, the Warbird may be able to destroy the Soveriegn before it can mount a counterattack/get off a distress signal, or it may have to disengage and leave the Soveriegn wounded... a burden on Starfleet in any case. Unless it was right below the Soveriegn and had weapons trained on the warp core (which would have alerted the captain), I don't think the ship could be destroyed in one volley... although it could certainly be critically damaged.

The captain could have avoided this by instructing the Warbird to keep her distance, and sent out a shuttlecraft to pick up the merchant crew. Alternatively, the Warbird could have been instructed to beam the crew to the planet and leave, then the Soveriegn could beam them up.

Again, it should be noted; GCSs have detected active weapons on Warbirds before, so this scenario (barring some new tech. development) is not entirely plausible.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:On the other hand a Sovereign has more then three times the forward firepower of a Galaxy as well as superior shields and armor.

More phaser strips don't necessarily equate to more firepower, and I don't think it can vomit out Q-torps anywhere near as fast as the E-D could launch volleys of photorps (although I admit I'm basing this on "Yesterday's Enterprise", which is arguably a different E-D).

"The Survivors" demonstrates a superior torpedo rate to "Yesterday's Enterprise", so I don't think yours is a bad assumption.

Darth Wong wrote:

Alyeska wrote:On the other hand a Sovereign has more then three times the forward firepower of a Galaxy as well as superior shields and armor.

More phaser strips don't necessarily equate to more firepower, and I don't think it can vomit out Q-torps anywhere near as fast as the E-D could launch volleys of photorps (although I admit I'm basing this on "Yesterday's Enterprise", which is arguably a different E-D).

Actually the E-E can fire Q-Torps at a nearly insane rate of fire all things considered. From its single QT-turret it can fire 3 torpedoes in one second, reload in three seconds, and then fire again. We say the E-E fire 9 Quantum torpedoes in a very short time span fired this way. We can further extrapolate another 6 QTs from other visible evidence. That puts the E-E at 15 Quantum torpedoes in a very short span of time, all this is from Nemesis. The PT launchers have already demonstrated very similar capabilities to the QT launcher and the Sovereign has three forward launchers as well. In a single volley the Sovereign can fire up to 9 PTs and 3 QTs. Four seconds later it can fire another 9 PTs and 3 QTs. In just 10 seconds time it can fire 27 PTs and 9 QTs from its forward arc. Factor in 6 rear facing PT launchers and things get real nasty.

As to the phasers. The Sovereigns phaser arrays are significantly more powerful then the Galaxy arrays because they are firing the newer Type-12 arrays. They are even strong enough to punch right through the shields of some ships (reference Insurrection).

A Sovereign has more phasers, more powerful phasers, more torpedo launchers, and more powerful torpedoes then the Galaxy ever had. Most sources put the first flight GCS just under a Warbird whild the War GCS is more powerful (though the Warbird forward weapon biass is still an advantage). The Sovereign class is vastly more powerful then the Galaxy class with better weapons, shields, and armor.

Uraniun235 wrote:The armor isn't enough to save the Soveriegn; without shields, ST ships can't pack enough armor to make a big enough difference against a concentrated heavy attack... and "twice the forward firepower" of a GCS would be nothing to take lightly in a fully shielded SCS, let alone an unshielded SCS.

The damage the E-E took while unshielded was heavily mitigated by the presence of its armor. It shrugged off multiple torpedo and disrupter impacts and the ship kept on fighting as well as regenerating the shields in that area very quickly. Estimates put the Sovereign at having taken a clean dozen shots from the Scimitar with its topside shields down.

Look, if the Captain of the SCS has his shields down awaiting transport and the Romulan Commander has a 'free' shot and the Warbird has a significant forward weapons load, then the Commander would go for a bridge shot or maybe a weapons system shot. Personally, I'd go for the bridge. The Federation has a habbit of having the most senior members of the crew all located on the bridge.

Destroying the bridge with shields down would not be hard either. Durring Nemesis, the bridge took two hits by the Scimitar durring one of the passes and it blew out the forward bulkhead of the bridge dome. With a free shot, the Romulan warbird, using adaquete amount of firepower, could wipe out the whole bridge and literly decapitate the SCS command structure.

The question is, could the engineering staff or possible the battle bridge staff be able to raise the shields before the Warbird got a second free shot?

How ever, on the other side, it has been shown many times that SF sensors can detect powered weapons, targeting sensors, and weapons that are in the process of being powered up. This would give the SCS a chance of raising her shields.

Are the Warbird's shields up?, because if not, the SCS can put some serious damage on the WB.

- If the Starfleet commander knows to hit the Quantum Singularity drive, they can win the battle somewhat quickly, as it seems to be an unstable device.

- The Daystrom Institute site, puts it's "beam" strength, (what I assume to be disruptor beam) at 30% higher then the GCS, and it's hull armor 20% higher, which would theoretically make huitting the QSD harder.

This is all I can say that hasn't been said.

First, here is the question.

People are suggesting the Romulans would aim for the bridge
Who says they would it?
First, Trek targetting systems, regardless of species, don't seem to be the best (personally, I think they all have ramming systems going to cause that, otherwise, the AI on any 3-D Shooter would be a huge improvement over there targetting systems)
Second, if the SCS Captain was suspicious, why would he let the Romulan ship get into an advantagious enough position to hit the bridge with Disruptor and/or Torpedoe fire?

When setting up a scenario like this, you have to think as both the agressior, and the defender.

Anyway, unless the Romulan ship got in an extremely lucky shot, or the SCS was the biggest tactical idiot in starfleet (note, since those are battlecruisers, they should be putting tactically intelligent people in charge. i.e James Kirk, Sisko or Pichard on the bridge, not Ezri Dax, some scientist, or a diplomat), the SCS would raise shields, and probably fire a warning shot at the Warbird, like oh, 3 QT's with the PT's ready and armed and all Phaser's locked on, followed by

"Bad Romulan's. You just upset me. Surrender your Captain and First Officer, alive and without any suicide stuff, and I'll escort you back to the neutral zone. At which point, you'll also hand over your command staff, who will collectively answer to charges of an unprovocated attack on a Federation starship."

"Otherwise, I'm going to blast your shields apart, disable your ship, disable or kill the crew, and tow you back to Starbase. I'm sure Starfleet woudl love to get there hands on a working Q.Singularity drive..."



Think about it, if you thought a ship you were suspicious of was manevering to hit your bridge, would YOU let it?

FYI, Sovereign class ships have exceptionaly good targeting. They can pinpoint attack an enemy system with phasers and retarget another system and fire in under a second. That speaks for quick aiming with good refire rates.

Solauren wrote:First, here is the question.

People are suggesting the Romulans would aim for the bridge
Who says they would it?
First, Trek targetting systems, regardless of species, don't seem to be the best (personally, I think they all have ramming systems going to cause that, otherwise, the AI on any 3-D Shooter would be a huge improvement over there targetting systems)

Stupid comparison. The AI in a computer game is being fed data inside of a controlled environment. That doesn’t work out when you try it in real world applications. That’s why we have flight sim AI’s that down actual fighter pilots but an air to air capable autonomous UCAV isn’t even on the horizon.

Solauren wrote:First, here is the question.

People are suggesting the Romulans would aim for the bridge
Who says they would it?

I think I was the only one to mention it. Who says they would? I say. ST has a long history of warning shots and disabling shots. The concept is prevelent enough to assume that it is a major part of the tactics used the the ST universe. The Romulans have tried to jack SF ships in the past, so the chances of them making a preemptive strike against the command structure of the enemy ship is probable.

Besides, a crippleing first strike is common fucking sense. You don't take your free shot or tactical advantage and waste it on, say the heaviest armoured or protected part of the ship, you strike at a target that can hurt your enemy. The bridge is not heavily armoured nor is it a hard target to shoot at.

First, Trek targetting systems, regardless of species, don't seem to be the best (personally, I think they all have ramming systems going to cause that, otherwise, the AI on any 3-D Shooter would be a huge improvement over there targetting systems)

Again, all through Trek history, there are numerous instances that the two ships that are about to undertake transporter operations, approach each other and 'park' themselves either face to face at close range, or side by side (usualy seen while the ships are in orbit around a planet). Getting a beed on a SF bridge modual from these angles would not be hard.

Second, if the SCS Captain was suspicious, why would he let the Romulan ship get into an advantagious enough position to hit the bridge with Disruptor and/or Torpedoe fire?

True, but I was going off of the scripted senario. Plus, many a times have SF captains been suspious yet still have been duped by enemies doing just what the senario sujests.

When setting up a scenario like this, you have to think as both the agressior, and the defender.

I thought I did.

Anyway, unless the Romulan ship got in an extremely lucky shot, or the SCS was the biggest tactical idiot in starfleet (note, since those are battlecruisers, they should be putting tactically intelligent people in charge. i.e James Kirk, Sisko or Pichard on the bridge, not Ezri Dax, some scientist, or a diplomat), the SCS would raise shields, and probably fire a warning shot at the Warbird, like oh, 3 QT's with the PT's ready and armed and all Phaser's locked on, followed by

"Bad Romulan's. You just upset me. Surrender your Captain and First Officer, alive and without any suicide stuff, and I'll escort you back to the neutral zone. At which point, you'll also hand over your command staff, who will collectively answer to charges of an unprovocated attack on a Federation starship."

"Otherwise, I'm going to blast your shields apart, disable your ship, disable or kill the crew, and tow you back to Starbase. I'm sure Starfleet woudl love to get there hands on a working Q.Singularity drive..."

Pfft, more like.....

Tactical Sir, the Romulans are not powering up their transporter, I am reading weapons powering up.

Captain Shields up.

Tactical Weapons? Sir?

Captain No Mr Wannabe, we don't want to look agressive.

Tactical Sir the Romulans are firing.

*Ship rocks by weapons fire, numerous extras are thrown across the bridge by exploding consols*

Tactical Standing ready to return fire.

Captain Never, it would go against the very basic principals of the Federation. We as an enlightened civilization can not go around the galaxy provocing new speicies and advocating violence to other wise peaceful cultures. Prepare to reverse the polarity of the quantum inverse capaciter. Then tap into the EPS circuit and reroute the negitive ion flux to the graviton accelerator. This should generate vauuntaltia radiation that will reset the time space continunum about five minutes and create yet another paradox to solve next week.

Tactical Yes sir.

*console explodes and removes tactial officers face*

Captain: Hmm, open hailing frequencies Ensign Insignificant.

Ensign: My name is Peters sir.

Captain: Open hailing frequencies Peters, we must convince them we are not a threat.

Computer: All weapons systems have been destroyed.

Ensign: I think they know that already sir.

Captain: Hmmmmm......

Ensign: (panicking) Orders sir?!?

Captain: Hmmmmm......I got it!

Ensign: Yes??!

Captain: Paint all the escape pods 'Surrender white', then load the pods with people preferably, then launch them, they will not see that as a threat.

Ensign: But what if they destroy the pods?

Captain: Don't be silly! We are surrendering, no they wont harm us.

Ensign: You're an idiot.

Captain: Hmmmm......

Alyeska wrote:Actually the E-E can fire Q-Torps at a nearly insane rate of fire all things considered. From its single QT-turret it can fire 3 torpedoes in one second, SNIP

Hey Alyeska, didn't the Ent-E fire 5 QT in one second in First Contact when they all attacked the Borg?

Four.

Would any of my Bridge Commander strategies work?

Death from the Sea wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Actually the E-E can fire Q-Torps at a nearly insane rate of fire all things considered. From its single QT-turret it can fire 3 torpedoes in one second, SNIP

Hey Alyeska, didn't the Ent-E fire 5 QT in one second in First Contact when they all attacked the Borg?

It fired four. It would seem they can fire one larger burst, or they can sustain fire on a smaller set.

Four, you all say, ok. I guess I need to count better.

One note I can add is how much damage that the Enterprise-D took from a single overaged bird of prey hits going through essentually unshielded. Now, even though a Sovereign is much heavier armored, a Warbird has much heavier firepower than a Bird of Prey.

One note: The Enterprise Nul, A, and D were all taken out by Birds of Preys.

Actually, neither 1701 nor 1701A were taken out by BOPs. 1701 was captured by the crew of a BOP after taking damage, and 1701A was only damaged by one.

Actually, neither 1701 nor 1701A were taken out by BOPs. 1701 was captured by the crew of a BOP after taking damage, and 1701A was only damaged by one.

Wrong or right, Enterprise 1701 was self destricted because the crew could not fight with the ship. Enterprise 1701A was damaged and I assume that the damage is what caused starfleet to scrap the NCC-1701A

That and it was obsolete. 1701 also took a hit in that it was nowhere near fully crewed.

Kitsune wrote:

Actually, neither 1701 nor 1701A were taken out by BOPs. 1701 was captured by the crew of a BOP after taking damage, and 1701A was only damaged by one.

Wrong or right, Enterprise 1701 was self destricted because the crew could not fight with the ship. Enterprise 1701A was damaged and I assume that the damage is what caused starfleet to scrap the NCC-1701A

Neither ship was destroyed by BoPs and the A was not scrapped because it was still in combat condition and could move about without any apparent problem.

Kitsune wrote:

Actually, neither 1701 nor 1701A were taken out by BOPs. 1701 was captured by the crew of a BOP after taking damage, and 1701A was only damaged by one.

Wrong or right, Enterprise 1701 was self destricted because the crew could not fight with the ship. Enterprise 1701A was damaged and I assume that the damage is what caused starfleet to scrap the NCC-1701A

Keep in mind that 1701 was easily disabled because it was already crippled by the battle damage from TWOK, and because (as Howedar pointed out) there was no crew to effect any repairs whatsoever. That, and Scott's automation system was apparently unable to handle combat loads. A fully-crewed and repaired 1701 would have smashed the Bird of Prey; Kruge even says "Why hasn't he destroyed us? He outguns me ten to one!"

The damage the E-E took while unshielded was heavily mitigated by the presence of its armor. It shrugged off multiple torpedo and disrupter impacts and the ship kept on fighting as well as regenerating the shields in that area very quickly. Estimates put the Sovereign at having taken a clean dozen shots from the Scimitar with its topside shields down.

I seriously doubt those were all torpedo hits (especially given that a single torpedo smashed through full shields and fucked over the warp drive), whereas a full frontal salvo from a GCS would include a half-dozen torpedos in the first ~1.5 seconds. Double that, and you have (the equivalent of) a full dozen photon torpedos, plus assorted beam weaponry. 10 torpedos + phasers + no shields = fucked Soveriegn. Forward shields were still up (albeit at ~10%) and a few torpedos fucked up the bridge something fierce; a Warbird's theoretical alpha strike (where did "twice forward firepower of GCS" come from, anyway?) is going to fuck up just about any ST ship that left it's shields down, armor or no.

I simply find it incredible that a Starfleet ship could take the equivalent of more than 10 photon torpedos, unshielded, without being severely damaged.