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Here is the poll question of the day. Should "Enterprise" have featured Klingons with forehead ridges? Vote so I can see if my opinion on this is in the minority...

I think the ridges can stay. I like the look of the TNG klingons. However, I think they go to far giving forehead ridges to just about every other damn race out there.

Ridged and unridged. That way it doesn't just come out of thin air.

It was like that in the comics too.

Come on now folks this whole "they have to explain where the ridged klingons come from" mentality is just too much. Roddenberry always wanted Klingons to have those features from day 1 but makeup effects and lack of funding did not allow it at the time of TOS. It is just an improvement over the old underfunded way, I mean do you ever hear anyone crying "where are all the sideways flying ships like they were in TOS?" and "explain how Starfleet ships started flying straight" ???? no, you don't.
If you truly cannot live without an explanation, I once read that GR (jokingly) said that smooth foreheaded Klingons and ridged-headed Klingons came from different hemi-sheres (north and south) I don't remember which he said was which, but there is your answer if you must have one.

This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for Worf's throw-away line in that one DS9 Ep. where they went back in time to the K-7 station ("We do not talk abot it"). It's never bothered me that much, frankly--I had always just assumed the SFX weren't up to the task in the 60s, and the way the Klings looked from TMP on was the way they were always supposed to look. I have a much bigger problem with how the Klingons were dumbed down as time went on into "space Vikings".

Death: And that changes what? Even if he wanted them from day one and only in TNG could they be made, there's still a difference. And why not explain it. It would fill out the universe more.

And from DS9, Worf says that the switch is something personal and isn't discussed much or something.

neoolong wrote:And from DS9, Worf says that the switch is something personal and isn't discussed much or something.

Crap, I forgot about that shit. I still say you should look at the Klingons from TOS and TNG and Enterprise eras all the same(pretend TOS have ridges if needed).
I agree with RedImp in that the Klingons being dumbed down should have pissed of the fans more than an improvement in makeup effects. Do people complain about the better looking andorians in Enterprise? hell their antenae move in Enterprise but they did not in TOS.

Death from the Sea wrote:

neoolong wrote:And from DS9, Worf says that the switch is something personal and isn't discussed much or something.

Crap, I forgot about that shit. I still say you should look at the Klingons from TOS and TNG and Enterprise eras all the same(pretend TOS have ridges if needed).

You could, if they did. But they mention a difference, so obviously there must be an in-universe answer.

I agree with RedImp in that the Klingons being dumbed down should have pissed of the fans more than an improvement in makeup effects. Do people complain about the better looking andorians in Enterprise? hell their antenae move in Enterprise but they did not in TOS.

True. To be fair, their dumbing down wasn't just from Enterprise.

My favourite explanation is that there are several different races of Klingons - some have ridges, others haven't. There's even on-screen evidence for this - in ST6, Chang had no ridges (that, or his ridges weren't very pronounced - perhaps indicating Chang being the product of an interracial relationship) but most of the other Klingons in that movie had.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:My favourite explanation is that there are several different races of Klingons - some have ridges, others haven't. There's even on-screen evidence for this - in ST6, Chang had no ridges (that, or his ridges weren't very pronounced - perhaps indicating Chang being the product of an interracial relationship) but most of the other Klingons in that movie had.

That idea was used in a very good comic series that spanned a great deal of Kirk's career. Unfortunately they blew it when Kang, Koloth and Kor made appearnances on DS9 & Voyager with their bumpy noggins.

It would have been cool if the stupid, blood wine guzzling, "honor" obsessed Klingons had somehow usurped control of the empire from the Klingons who were promenant during Kirk's day.

I personally like to go with some kinda of in-universe explaination. Here it is:

Stealth

Face it, if you change the uniforms on a TOS klingon, he looks like a black human. All the changes that are needed are very, very cosmetic. Then, they are easy to make look like say, Romulans.

The episode with the throw-away line from DS9 with Worf proves that. The spy was surgically altered to look human.

What if, during TOS, all Klingons working on the border eras, for a time, were required to undergo cosmetic alterations to make infiltration tactics easier?

I mean, think about it. Right now, in 'Enterprise', with the ridges, you know damn well that's a Klingon. However, in TOS, since the UFP is around and probably comparable to the Klingon empire in strength, they decided to adapt the tactic of the romulans and go for sneakiness.

They don't look Klingon without a uniform, so to the untrained eye, they are not Klingon.

However, once they had Cloaking Technology (the movies), they didn't need to undergo cosmetic alterations, so they didn't do it anymore.

The level of ridges on Kang in ST6 are explained by either age, just he had smaller ridges, or racial cross-breeding, perhaps with the Romulans. (Hey, some people have smaller feet then others, so why not Klingon Ridges?)

Also, this would explain the whole 'Space Viking' crap too. With Cloaking shields, the high command doesn't think they need extensive military training, so its back to the old 'use the sword' routine. And the Klingon High command doesn't want to admit it made a mistake.

Death from the Sea wrote: If you truly cannot live without an explanation, I once read that GR (jokingly) said that smooth foreheaded Klingons and ridged-headed Klingons came from different hemi-sheres (north and south) I don't remember which he said was which, but there is your answer if you must have one.

No, that was for white actors and black actors. Klingons played by white guys were from the north, black guys from the south. I think it's explained in the Aliens and Artifacts book.

Tsyroc wrote:That idea was used in a very good comic series that spanned a great deal of Kirk's career. Unfortunately they blew it when Kang, Koloth and Kor made appearnances on DS9 & Voyager with their bumpy noggins.

Maybe the 3 K.s had cosmetic surgery.

Maybe the 3 K.s had cosmetic surgery.

That would fit with the bumpies taking over. the the 3Ks wanted to stay alive theyd have changed their faces to blend in.

Im thinking the bumpies little Kahless religion have a revivalism thing and they massacred the smoothies. It would explain why there are NONE left.

RedImperator wrote:This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for Worf's throw-away line in that one DS9 Ep. where they went back in time to the K-7 station ("We do not talk abot it"). It's never bothered me that much, frankly--I had always just assumed the SFX weren't up to the task in the 60s, and the way the Klings looked from TMP on was the way they were always supposed to look. I have a much bigger problem with how the Klingons were dumbed down as time went on into "space Vikings".

My favorite explanation actually stemmed from Worf's line.

The Klingons at some point captured a group of humans and performed "thorough" (in the grisliest sense of the word) examinations of them.

The Klingons then later decided that they needed active intel operators in Starfleet, but had already determined that (for some reason) surgically altering a Klingon to look human was beneath contempt -- or possibly even life-threatening to the Klingon. After all, who knows how vital those ridges are. (I'll explain the dude from "Trouble with Tribbles" in a minute.)

To this end, the Klingons began a program to breed Klingons who appeared (more) human from birth.

The problem was, these new Klingons were actually better warriors than natural Klingons, and within a matter of decades had asserted almost total dominance of the military and the government.

These new Klingons valued honor, but not at the expense of pragmatic concerns.

For almost a century, these genetically altered Klingons struck terror into the hearts of their enemies, both in the Federation and at home on Q'onos. But the natural Klingons finally found a solution, and turned the tide on their science's perfect soldiers. An experiment that went too well finally ended with the Great Purge in the late 23rd Century. A few of the Empire's most decorated Eugenic Klingons survived as fugitives, surgically altered to be identical to natural Klingons.

In the mid-24th Century, three of these Eugenic Klingons emerged from the shadows to be recognized as heroes by an Empire no longer embroiled in panic.

Now, as for the "Trouble With Tribbles" Klingon spy -- after the terrifying success of the Klingons' Eugenics program, it was decided that it was more practical to risk the life of a Klingon spy by surgically altering him (or her) to appear human than to risk the lives of hundreds or thousands of Klingons by creating more SuperKlingons.

Short EDIT note: My explanation lends Worf's line the following meaning:

We added human genetics to Klingons once, and they curb-stomped the living fuck out of us. We don't like to talk about that. Especially not with humans.

I think they should have ridges. That's what GR always wanted. But my opinion is irrelevant. After all, B&B piss all over canon so much that they will probably figure out a way to screw this up too.

While I think that the ridges make for a better Klingon, it strikes me as spectacularly odd that in TOS they only encountered one type of Klingon, and by DS9 O'Brien had never even seen such a Klingon before (and, in fact, the Klingons in the bar didn't seem to recognize Worf as one of their own). If they wanted to keep the ridges, I think they're obligated to explain WTF is going on with them.

Good point, they DID NOT recognize Worf as one of their own. I had never thought of that. Maybe it was because Worf was wearing a hat that covered his ridges...

Yeah, that DS9 episodes really confused this whole issue...

Baron Mordo wrote:

Death from the Sea wrote: If you truly cannot live without an explanation, I once read that GR (jokingly) said that smooth foreheaded Klingons and ridged-headed Klingons came from different hemi-sheres (north and south) I don't remember which he said was which, but there is your answer if you must have one.

No, that was for white actors and black actors. Klingons played by white guys were from the north, black guys from the south. I think it's explained in the Aliens and Artifacts book.

Um, that's the first time I've ever heard that version. I heard it the same way as DFTS.

And I think bumpy was South, smooth was North, IIRC...

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Um, that's the first time I've ever heard that version. I heard it the same way as DFTS.

And I think bumpy was South, smooth was North, IIRC...

If that was true, the Klingons in "Trials and Tribbleations" should have recognized Worf and at least wondered what he was doing there.

Ok, I found it. On page 68 of Aliens and Artifacts, Michael Westmore said that the klingons played by dark-skinned actors would be from the north, and the light-skinned klingons were from the south. I don't know how canonical that makes it, but it's there.

I don't have *that* much of a problem with the makeup, but I want to smack around the writers who turned them into one-note aliens.

Baron Mordo wrote:Ok, I found it. On page 68 of Aliens and Artifacts, Michael Westmore said that the klingons played by dark-skinned actors would be from the north, and the light-skinned klingons were from the south. I don't know how canonical that makes it, but it's there.

Michael Westmore is not Gene Roddenberry, GR is the one who I remember reading about, he joking around backstage with the crew and gave the north vs. south explanation. Now maybe MW later used that for A&A but messed it up.

I think that they should have taken the opportunity to give a canon explanation of the difference between TOS- and TNG-era Klingons. My favoured explanation is that there are two races of Klingon, one with lumpy foreheads and one with smooth foreheads caused by a recessive gene. The numerically-smaller smooth-headed race were dominant for several generations (the way that the numerically-lesser Sunni are dominant over the majority Shi'a in Islamic lands) and lumpy-heads tended to wear lots of disguising make-up to make them look smooth so as not to face career-disabling prejudice. When the smoothies screwed up the attempt to go to war with the Federation during TOS, they started loosing face. As little as 5-years later, lumpies were becoming captains of starships without forehead-reconstruction surgery.

Note, Kor, Kang and Kodos were all smoothies. They later had plastic surgery to have 'lumps' added as the balance of power tipped towards the numerically-greater lumpies. Those who were not so pragmatic... Well, we won't go into that, but I'm sure you can figure it out.