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What would happen if the Klingons went to war with Romulans again ? Who would be victorious assuming the Federation and other powers do not intervene ? The battle takes place in 2379.

I believe the Romulans would win the war. The Romulans have survived for a long time without any allies while the Klingon - Federation alliance was the most powerful military force in the alpha quadrant. Considering how the Romulans have conexisted the with the threat of this alliance their military must be quite strong.

The Romulan fleet consists of primarily 1200 meter long D'deridex class warbirds. This ships are stronger than a pre dominion war galaxy class and their sheer size indicates superior Romulan industrial and engineering capabilities. Capable of cloaking the warbird can be a stealthy lethal opponent. The Klingons on the other hand continues to rely on century old D7 battlecruisers and Bird of Preys. These older ships are no match for a Romulan warbird.

Newer ships like the Vorcha may be stronger but even they can not singly take on a warbird and they exist in fewer numbers. Only the Neghver class battleships, the largest ship in the Klingon fleet can defeat a warbird.
But very few of them exist to make a difference.

In terms of ground combat and boarding actions the Romulans are far better than klingons. Unlike klingon warriors who drop their disruptors the Romulans actualy use legitimate tactics.

In the end the Romulans win.

Although we don't know how bad the Dominion War was for the Romulans, it is generally considered that they suffered relatively minor losses. The same cannot be said about the Klingons. Internally the Romulan Empire is rather fragile, but in face of a war against an alien race, who also happens to be their arch enemies, these differences would be put aside and Klingons would face a united Romulan Empire.

IMO, this war would be disasterous for the Klingons, who still wouldn't have had time to recover from the Dominion War.

"All Good Things..." gave us an insight to this. The Klingons won.

Oberleutnant wrote:Although we don't know how bad the Dominion War was for the Romulans, it is generally considered that they suffered relatively minor losses. The same cannot be said about the Klingons. Internally the Romulan Empire is rather fragile, but in face of a war against an alien race, who also happens to be their arch enemies, these differences would be put aside and Klingons would face a united Romulan Empire.

IMO, this war would be disasterous for the Klingons, who still wouldn't have had time to recover from the Dominion War.

The Romulans lost about 60 Warbirds during their joint operation with the Cardassians to destroy the Changling homeworld.

Gandalf wrote:"All Good Things..." gave us an insight to this. The Klingons won.

IIRC the same episode said that it was only a possible one of countless timelines, and a Q fantasy.

MrAnderson wrote:The Romulans lost about 60 Warbirds during their joint operation with the Cardassians to destroy the Changling homeworld.

That was just the Tal Shiar(secret police) for the most part and not part of the main fleet.
I agree though with Gandalf that the Klingons would clean house, and that the "All Good Things" timeline was a possible timeline and was indicative of how a Klingon and Romulan war would go. You mention that the large warbird is the backbone of their fleet but you neglect to mention that the scout ship is the other half of the fleet, until the valdore in 'Nemesis' came out. The scout ship is no match even for a BoP.

I'm handing this one to the Klingons.

Yes, the Klingons took a major pasting during the Dominion war, while Romulan losses were relatively light. This, to me, is the only reason the Romulans would stand a chance at winning such a war against the Klingons. If there was a chance for the Romulans to win such a war, it is only because of this situation that they would be victorious.

I think because the Klingons have a more diverse fleet, they are capable of more types of strikes against enemy targets than the Romulans are capable of. Even with Nemesis, the Romulans still show large ships, without the capability of fielding adaquate smaller vessels as support craft. (Games do not count) On the other hand, the diversity of the BOP cannot be overstated. While not nearly as strong as any Romulan starship alone, the BOP is capable of being made quicker than any Romulan Warbirds, and in high enough numbers, can be spread across a larger area of space than the Romulan vessels. This allows the Klingons the capability of threatening a strike on strategic targets, forcing the Romulans to protect these sectors, and limiting their offensive fleet operations. (I don't see those little scouts being much of a threat against a BOP) The Klingons can then use the Vorchan's to engage the Romulan fleet. My guess is that the Klingons would fight holding actions until either they've dwindled the enemy's fleet numbers sufficantly, or have constructed enough that they feel confident of victory. As sick as I find Klingon gile, the fact is Romulans have always pretty much backed down from fights, especially from opponents who at least appear to be better off. (See numerous TNG eps Tomalock, as well as how long it took them to enter the Dominion war) With the Klingons running and screaming like idiots, they may well just scare the Romulans into retreat.

Should the Romulans inherit the cloak used on the Scimitar, however, all bets are off. The Klingons would be unable to cope with such an assault.

evilcat4000 wrote:What would happen if the Klingons went to war with Romulans again ? Who would be victorious assuming the Federation and other powers do not intervene ? The battle takes place in 2379.

The Romulans.

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges":

SLOAN
To evaluate an ally -- and a
temporary ally at that. I say
that because when the war's over,
the following will happen in
short order: The Dominion will
be forced back to the Gamma
Quadrant. The Cardassian Empire
will be occupied. The Klingon
Empire will spend the next ten
years recovering from the war and
won't pose a major threat to
anyone. That leaves two powers
to vie for control of the
quadrant -- the Federation and
the Romulans.

While I believe the Klingon Defense Force is more formidable when its fleet isn't so heavily depleted, the Klingons did seem to take the heaviest losses of the "Allied" powers.

The Romulan fleet consists of primarily 1200 meter long D'deridex class warbirds. This ships are stronger than a pre dominion war galaxy class and their sheer size indicates superior Romulan industrial and engineering capabilities.

Yes, but the Warbirds--which their designer, Andy Probert, says were intended to be 1,341m long onscreen--ARE mostly empty space. As the TM suggested, Warbirds might actually mass less than the Galaxy.

Capable of cloaking the warbird can be a stealthy lethal opponent. The Klingons on the other hand continues to rely on century old D7 battlecruisers and Bird of Preys. These older ships are no match for a Romulan warbird.

Indeed, but don't forget that the Klingons always have many more ships onscreen in fleet movements. In an episode like "Tears of the Prophets," we might only see a dozen or so Romulan ships onscreen at one time, but we'll see at least thrice that in Klingon ships.

Newer ships like the Vorcha may be stronger but even they can not singly take on a warbird and they exist in fewer numbers.

A Vor'cha is definitely superior to any Klingon ship before it. As the script for "Redemption" suggests, they have about twice the firepower of the large-scale K'Vort variants, themselves easily capable of taking on Warbirds with 2 to 1 odds ("The Defector").

One-on-one, the attack cruiser might not be a clear victor against a Warbird, no; but I'd disagree that the Romulans have more Warbirds than the Klingons do Vor'chas. Again, we've seen a huge no. of the latter in DS9.

Only the Neghver class battleships, the largest ship in the Klingon fleet can defeat a warbird.
But very few of them exist to make a difference.

I tend to agree, but you're ignoring the fact that all those Birds-of-Prey and K't'inga battlecruisers would easily make up the difference, and then some, in these head-to-head engagements. The Klingon fleet simply outnumbers the Romulans' when both powers are at their peak.

In terms of ground combat and boarding actions the Romulans are far better than klingons. Unlike klingon warriors who drop their disruptors the Romulans actualy use legitimate tactics.

Klingons don't always drop their disruptors. And let's not forget that the RSE's shock troops, the highly touted "warrior Remans," were being slaughtered wholesale by one old man with a phaser on their own ship!

In the end the Romulans win.

After the Dominion War, I think they'd win, yes. Give the Klingons 10-20 years, and they should be somewhat superior to the Romulans...again

seanrobertson wrote: After the Dominion War, I think they'd win, yes. Give the Klingons 10-20 years, and they should be somewhat superior to the Romulans...again

Will they? This assumes they don't decide to kick the klingons while they're down. The romulans have never been dishonest and disreputable have they...

Also, I'm still waiting on them to show some continuity.

The Romulans should have Trilithium weapons by now, unless for some reason one crackpot El-aurian working in secret is able to outpreform an entire romulan research project, esp. considering the boost in funding and determination they would have gotten when it was proven possible.

I can see it now:

Kronos ten years post war: "And now we shall destroy our hated enemies the Romulans."

Aboard a cloaked romulan scout in solar orbit. "OK time to pop this sucker." The romulan officer presses a button, launching a probe into the star and going to warp...

Klingons don't always drop their disruptors. And let's not forget that the RSE's shock troops, the highly touted "warrior Remans," were being slaughtered wholesale by one old man with a phaser on their own ship!

(Ugh, nemesis I truly hate that film, look what it did to my Romulans!)

He's a captain of the enterprise. That's like arguning that TOS aliens were weak because Kirk could beat them. It's character shields.

Also, a probable reason for seeing more klingon ships in the dominion war (other than them having more models) would be the klingons throwing everything they had at the enemy, wheras the romulans were probably holding back.

If the Romulans devote all their shipbuilding energy to constructing Warbirds, I'm inclined to believe they have more Warbirds than the Klingons have of any particular class.

I think the Dominion war would have just given the Klingons more taste for blood, give it a few years, they'll be up in strength again, and they shall spread across the Romulan Empire like a wildfire.

Gandalf wrote:"All Good Things..." gave us an insight to this. The Klingons won.

I agree. The Klingons seem to have a much stronger internal structure and a more powerful military. Also, the Klingons tend to waste less resources on superweapons that fail and clones that double cross you. They just outright kill them.

Although we don't know how bad the Dominion War was for the Romulans, it is generally considered that they suffered relatively minor losses. The same cannot be said about the Klingons. Internally the Romulan Empire is rather fragile, but in face of a war against an alien race, who also happens to be their arch enemies, these differences would be put aside and Klingons would face a united Romulan Empire.

Correct. The Romulans suffered fewer losses than Klingons in the dominion war. The Klingons also lost extensive number of ships in the Klingon - Cardassian war and subsquent hostility towards the federation.
Romulans on the other hand are relatively intact. Their forces have not been wasted in conflicts like the Klingons and they have quite a few superweapons ready.

"All Good Things..." gave us an insight to this. The Klingons won.

That was one of many possible countless timelines and one created by the Q. It was mentioned by Picard that the future would turn out to be different from that timeline. And besides this hypothetical war takes place in 2379 with the Klingons at their weakest.

The Romulans lost about 60 Warbirds during their joint operation with the Cardassians to destroy the Changling homeworld.

That was nothing compared to the losses the Klingon took. By the end of the war the Romulans took far less losses than the Klingons.

Yes, the Klingons took a major pasting during the Dominion war, while Romulan losses were relatively light. This, to me, is the only reason the Romulans would stand a chance at winning such a war against the Klingons. If there was a chance for the Romulans to win such a war, it is only because of this situation that they would be victorious.

I agree that that the current Romulan fleet is unable to deal with the Klingons at full power. However with the introduction of ships like the Scimatar, Valdore and many superweapons the situation could change.

I think because the Klingons have a more diverse fleet, they are capable of more types of strikes against enemy targets than the Romulans are capable of. Even with Nemesis, the Romulans still show large ships, without the capability of fielding adaquate smaller vessels as support craft. (Games do not count) On the other hand, the diversity of the BOP cannot be overstated. While not nearly as strong as any Romulan starship alone, the BOP is capable of being made quicker than any Romulan Warbirds, and in high enough numbers, can be spread across a larger area of space than the Romulan vessels. This allows the Klingons the capability of threatening a strike on strategic targets, forcing the Romulans to protect these sectors, and limiting their offensive fleet operations. (I don't see those little scouts being much of a threat against a BOP) The Klingons can then use the Vorchan's to engage the Romulan fleet. My guess is that the Klingons would fight holding actions until either they've dwindled the enemy's fleet numbers sufficantly, or have constructed enough that they feel confident of victory. As sick as I find Klingon gile, the fact is Romulans have always pretty much backed down from fights, especially from opponents who at least appear to be better off. (See numerous TNG eps Tomalock, as well as how long it took them to enter the Dominion war) With the Klingons running and screaming like idiots, they may well just scare the Romulans into retreat.

Diversity can be a weakness as well as a strength. Because of the diverse nature of their fleet most Klingon ships would not be battleships and therefore are incapable of dealing with a Romulan warbird one on one. This could prove to be the undoing for the Klingon armada.

Should the Romulans inherit the cloak used on the Scimitar, however, all bets are off. The Klingons would be unable to cope with such an assault.

Ships like the Scimatar clearly show superior Romulan technology. Even if one Scimatar is let loose in Klingon space it could singlehandly turn the tide of the war.

Yes, but the Warbirds--which their designer, Andy Probert, says were intended to be 1,341m long onscreen--ARE mostly empty space. As the TM suggested, Warbirds might actually mass less than the Galaxy.

Warbirds may not be that much more powerful than a Galaxy but they exist in large numbers and outguns most Klingons ships by a large margin. There are not many ships in the Klingon fleet that could take on a warbird.

Indeed, but don't forget that the Klingons always have many more ships onscreen in fleet movements. In an episode like "Tears of the Prophets," we might only see a dozen or so Romulan ships onscreen at one time, but we'll see at least thrice that in Klingon ships.

Romulans make extensive use of cloaking devices. It is possible they chose to keep the bulk of their fleets cloaked to avoid taking heavy losses like the Klingon, using the Klingons as a punching bag to absorb damage from the Dominion forces.

A Vor'cha is definitely superior to any Klingon ship before it. As the script for "Redemption" suggests, they have about twice the firepower of the large-scale K'Vort variants, themselves easily capable of taking on Warbirds with 2 to 1 odds ("The Defector").

One-on-one, the attack cruiser might not be a clear victor against a Warbird, but I'd disagree that the Romulans have more Warbirds than the Klingons do Vor'chas. Again, we've seen a huge no. of the latter in DS9.

A Vorcha class attack cruiser does not have quite the firepower and shielding needed to take down a warbird but I agree that they exist in large numbers. The superior numbers could be necessary to deal with the Romulan warbird forces. However a cloaked fleet of warbirds could strike unnoticed where the Klingon defenses are the weakest so it would be difficult to make use of the Vorcha's numerical advantage.

I tend to agree, but you're ignoring the fact that all those Birds-of-Prey and K't'inga battlecruisers would easily make up the difference, and then some, in these head-to-head engagements. The Klingon fleet simply outnumbers the Romulans' when both powers are at their peak.

In this scenario the Klingons are recovering from the losses suffered in the Dominion war and would not have any significant numerical superiority.

After the Dominion War, I think they'd win, yes. Give the Klingons 10-20 years, and they should be somewhat superior to the Romulans...again

They may not be true. The Romulans too would be developing in that time. Given the number of superweapons they built they advance their technology at a fast pace. Klingons could find themselves facing a technologicaly superior foe in the long run.

The Romulans didn't appear to send a large number of ships to help in the Dominion War, compared to the Federation or the Klingons. They may not really have a lot to begin with. This possibility might explain why the seem dependent on the Warbirds; they don't have a lot of ships, so they focus on big, impressive designs to intimidate their neighbors and scare their subjects into line. They might also have a huge fleet, and held it back, letting their allies do the heavy work. Either they expected Starfleet and the Klingons to get chewed up, and were planning to fight off a Dominion invasion alone, or they expected them to win, and planned to invade one or both immediately after the war, or a little of both.

What size fleet the Romulans have is going to effect how they invade. With a small fleet, they'd probably jump across the border, grab a couple resource-rich systems, and hold on to them until they can build up forces to continue the attack. This strategy depends on a slow buildup, and being able to hold off a counterattack. If the Romulans have a large fleet, they'd probably grab the first tier of systems across the border, fortify them, and let the Klingons counterattack. Once they break the Klingon fleet, they can move forward. This strategy depends on the Romulans' ability to guage how much territory they can take and hold in one gulp.

I think it's unlikely a depleted Klingon fleet would launch an attack on the Romulans in 2379. They might wait a couple of years, and focus on preparing for the Romulans to invade. If no such invasion occurred in about five years, the Klingons might decide their fleet, which would be easy to rebuild because it uses so many small vessels, is ready to take a poke at Cardassia. I imagine both empires got chunks of Cardassian territory after the war, and the Klingons might want to warm up before going after the Romulans. The Cardassians might seek help from the Romulans, since they are probably so weak and desperate that they'd appeal to the Romulans for help.

Since the Klingons probably will have mostly small ships, I can picture them trying to break up a large fleet and pouncing on the parts of it one at a time, withdrawing when they lose their numerical advantage. As the fleet keeps growing, they can do the same tactics on a larger scale, keeping lots of ships moving constantly, looking for large concentrations of enemy ships, pouncing from several directions, then pulling back and picking off what comes after them. This strategy depends on the Klingon Empire's industrial capacity being able to keep grinding out ships to support the invasion without draining their defenses at home. If such a depletion proves necessary, the Klingons could concentrate their defenses on Qo'Nos and on worlds with big shipyards, and hope the Romulans and Cardassians are stupid enough to try a decapitation attack.

CDiehl wrote:The Romulans didn't appear to send a large number of ships to help in the Dominion War, compared to the Federation or the Klingons. They may not really have a lot to begin with. This possibility might explain why the seem dependent on the Warbirds; they don't have a lot of ships, so they focus on big, impressive designs to intimidate their neighbors and scare their subjects into line. They might also have a huge fleet, and held it back, letting their allies do the heavy work. Either they expected Starfleet and the Klingons to get chewed up, and were planning to fight off a Dominion invasion alone, or they expected them to win, and planned to invade one or both immediately after the war, or a little of both.

It's also worth noting that they fought on a different front. On the first day(IIRC) of the war they attacked 16 cardassian outposts.

It's a little like saying the russians didn't do much in WW2 because the Americans and Brits rarely saw them.

If such a depletion proves necessary, the Klingons could concentrate their defenses on Qo'Nos and on worlds with big shipyards, and hope the Romulans and Cardassians are stupid enough to try a decapitation attack.

If the Romulans wanted to do that, then sending a schemitar class to pop the sun / garden gnome the planet would more than fuck that plan.

NecronLord wrote:If the Romulans wanted to do that, then sending a schemitar class to pop the sun / garden gnome the planet would more than fuck that plan.

You keep assuming that the Romulans can develop the tech Soran used in Generations when we have no evidence that they could at all. Worf stated in Generations that the Romulans couldn't even stabilize trilithium in order to use it, it was Soran's tech and it died with him and the Duras sisters.
Also the Schimitar is a REMAN ship not a Romulan ship. I am sure the plans to build that ship were lost or destroyed with the prototype vessel because 1:this happens alot in Trek and 2:why leave plans for uber ship laying around for enemies to find and use against you, you keep them hidden(where no-one can find it) or on the ship itself.

NecronLord wrote: Will they? This assumes they don't decide to kick the klingons while they're down. The romulans have never been dishonest and disreputable have they...

That's true

I don't think they'll pull anything on the Klingons too soon, though. Martok is pretty tight with the Federation; I imagine after the Dominion War, he'd want to keep their mutual defense pact going. So we'd be back to pretty much the same balance in TNG.

Also, I'm still waiting on them to show some continuity.

The Romulans should have Trilithium weapons by now, unless for some reason one crackpot El-aurian working in secret is able to outpreform an entire romulan research project, esp. considering the boost in funding and determination they would have gotten when it was proven possible.

I can see it now:

Kronos ten years post war: "And now we shall destroy our hated enemies the Romulans."

Aboard a cloaked romulan scout in solar orbit. "OK time to pop this sucker." The romulan officer presses a button, launching a probe into the star and going to warp...

That'd be a pretty lethal maneuver. The Klingons were smart enough--gasp! Klingons, smart?! --to maintain another military HQ on Ty'Gokor, a target the Romulans would be hard-pressed to strike with anything other than a direct assault. IIRC, the Ty'Gokor defenses included a tacyhon detection grid...yep:

WORF
That will make our job more
difficult. Ty'Gokor is located in
an asteroid field deep in Klingon
Space. It is probably the most
heavily fortified installation in
the Empire.

SISKO
(agreeing)
There're at least thirty warships
stationed there at any given time
and the entire asteroid field is
protected by a tachyon detection
grid.

So, unlike Shinzon's plan to behead the UFP by destroying Earth, the Klingons would be thrown into momentary chaos, perhaps, but their military leaders on Ty'Gokor could quickly take over. Without the High Council and its political bumbling, the Klingons might actually be a more efficient fighting machine in that case, though of course the loss of Qo'nos and its resources, shipyards, etc. would hurt badly.

(Ugh, nemesis I truly hate that film, look what it did to my Romulans!)

He's a captain of the enterprise. That's like arguning that TOS aliens were weak because Kirk could beat them. It's character shields.

Yeah, I know , but most everybody chides the Klingons and Jem'Hadar, these "feared soldiers," because Sisko, Kira et al. have whipped them before

Also, a probable reason for seeing more klingon ships in the dominion war (other than them having more models) would be the klingons throwing everything they had at the enemy, wheras the romulans were probably holding back.

They did maintain a pretty impressive honor guard at Romulus in "Inter Arma...", with 13 Warbirds (and perhaps more) orbitting the planet.

But I still think the Romulans have far fewer ships than the Federation or Klingons do, if only given the vast size of their mainline battlecruisers, the elegant D'Derdidex. I just finished talking about how much of that size is misleading--that's hardly a revelation, as we've all seen and talked about the big maw in a Warbird's "wings"--but even if the ships were the equivalent of a GCS in resources, they simply couldn't have as many ships...if they did, you'd think that even the Federation-Klingon alliance would pose far less trouble for them.

seanrobertson wrote: That's true

I don't think they'll pull anything on the Klingons too soon, though. Martok is pretty tight with the Federation; I imagine after the Dominion War, he'd want to keep their mutual defense pact going. So we'd be back to pretty much the same balance in TNG.

Cursed alliance. *goes back to Romulus to plot F-K alliance disrupton plan #837*

That'd be a pretty lethal maneuver. The Klingons were smart enough--gasp! Klingons, smart?! --to maintain another military HQ on Ty'Gokor, a target the Romulans would be hard-pressed to strike with anything other than a direct assault. IIRC, the Ty'Gokor defenses included a tacyhon detection grid...yep:

Fortunately, in order for it to qualify as an asteroid belt, it needs to orbit a star. IIRC the Nem cloak is immune to tachyon detection?

So, unlike Shinzon's plan to behead the UFP by destroying Earth, the Klingons would be thrown into momentary chaos, perhaps, but their military leaders on Ty'Gokor could quickly take over. Without the High Council and its political bumbling, the Klingons might actually be a more efficient fighting machine in that case, though of course the loss of Qo'nos and its resources, shipyards, etc. would hurt badly.

And population, it was my impression that the Klings were very centralised.

Yeah, I know , but most everybody chides the Klingons and Jem'Hadar, these "feared soldiers," because Sisko, Kira et al. have whipped them before

I chide the Kling because they still use big cumbersome bladed weapons, when a decent combat knife would be better.

I never really thought the Jem'Hadar were that bad, though the drug dependance is kind of a weakness. (Sure they turn into crazed loons, but what happens if they run out in transit?)

They did maintain a pretty impressive honor guard at Romulus in "Inter Arma...", with 13 Warbirds (and perhaps more) orbitting the planet.

By my count it was twelve., though that was only in one section of the planet. You wouldn't see the breen getting Romulus in a hurry.

But I still think the Romulans have far fewer ships than the Federation or Klingons do, if only given the vast size of their mainline battlecruisers, the elegant D'Derdidex. I just finished talking about how much of that size is misleading--that's hardly a revelation, as we've all seen and talked about the big maw in a Warbird's "wings"--but even if the ships were the equivalent of a GCS in resources, they simply couldn't have as many ships...if they did, you'd think that even the Federation-Klingon alliance would pose far less trouble for them.[/quote]

I agree. The D'deridex is a massive ship, though it has about the same mass as a smaller galaxy, it would take longer to assemble. Interestingly, in the defector, they're called 'B type warbirds' by picard, if so, what's an A type? I doubt it's a Tos BoP as they aren't warbirds...

Death from the Sea wrote: You keep assuming that the Romulans can develop the tech Soran used in Generations when we have no evidence that they could at all. Worf stated in Generations that the Romulans couldn't even stabilize trilithium in order to use it, it was Soran's tech and it died with him and the Duras sisters.

Oh dear. As I said in this thread IIRC the events in gensis would help the romulans.

Imagine if in 1943 a mad german had stolen Manhatten project research and made a working nuke, before dying along with his working nuke tech.

This would help the Manhatten proj as they would A) Know it's possible, and be encoraged and B) Gain extra funding as the govt now knows that it's not a wasted effort.

They've had years of increased funding and effort now. They would in reality succeed.

PS. The trilithium was brought by the Duras sisters from a romulan outpost remember? Worf isn't privy to romulan secrets. His comments about it not working without him could even have been a bluff. It's hardly as if he'd say, "No, you don't need me now, all I am is a walking talking liability, best to slit my throaght because dead men tell no tales,"

Also the Schimitar is a REMAN ship not a Romulan ship. I am sure the plans to build that ship were lost or destroyed with the prototype vessel because 1:this happens alot in Trek and 2:why leave plans for uber ship laying around for enemies to find and use against you, you keep them hidden(where no-one can find it) or on the ship itself.

It would be in reality logically impossible for slaves to produce such a thing on their own, where the fuck would they hide it, they were prerpetually supervised by Romulans.

ROMULAN GOV OF REMUS: What's that? (pointing at blip)
TECHNICIAN: Oh, the slaves are building something up there.
GOV: It's bigger than a warbird.
TECH: Yeah, well, why bother checking out this large huge ass spacecraft out opressed mass are building, want some ale?

The most likely probability is that the prototype (though possibly without the uber weapon) was supplied by shinzon's associates in the navy.

evilcat4000 wrote: Correct. The Romulans suffered fewer losses than Klingons in the dominion war. The Klingons also lost extensive number of ships in the Klingon - Cardassian war and subsquent hostility towards the federation.
Romulans on the other hand are relatively intact. Their forces have not been wasted in conflicts like the Klingons and they have quite a few superweapons ready.

Well, the onesuperweapon we know of was lost in a fiery explosion (accompanied by one of those infernal planar energy rings...WTF?!).

And I agree, the Romulans didn't incur the kind of losses the Klingons did, but the war definitely hurt them:

ODO
Believe me, I'm well aware that
the Federation has its flaws...
but a desire for conquest isn't
one of them.

MA CHANGELING
And what of the Klingons and the
Romulans... can you make the same
claim for them?

ODO
The Klingon and Romulan Empires
are in no shape to wage a war
against anyone... besides, the
Federation wouldn't allow it.

Odo could've underscored just how bad the Klingons had it, but the Romulans aren't peachy, either. They knew they'd have to wipe out Earth if they hoped to stand a chance against the Federation ("Nemesis"), and even then the more sensible hard-liners understood that the war would be very costly.

They'd still whip the Klingons in 2378-79, don't get me wrong. But I don't think it'd be a steamroll, either.

Romulans lost about 60 Warbirds during their joint operation with the Cardassians to destroy the Changling homeworld.


That was nothing compared to the losses the Klingon took. By the end of the war the Romulans took far less losses than the Klingons.

Definitely, though it was only six Warbirds in "TDIC," and such a loss was still considered remarkable:

SISKO
A Dominion invasion of the Alpha
Quadrant will affect Cardassia
every bit as much as it will
affect us.
(a beat)
Besides, we need all the help we
can get. The Dominion picked a
perfect time to invade. The
Cardassian fleet is in shambles,
the Romulans aren't much better
off and between the Klingon War
and the latest Borg attack,
Starfleet's spread pretty thin.

I agree that that the current Romulan fleet is unable to deal with the Klingons at full power. However with the introduction of ships like the Scimatar, Valdore and many superweapons the situation could change.

Scimitar was a one-shot deal, built around that dangerous radiation weapon. It seemed heavily based in captured Dominion technology, as well. It might be impossible for the Romulans to build another ship with its tactical assets.

As far as the Valdore goes (or Norexa-class as some call it), I wasn't impressed with them. Their firepower seemed okay enough, and we don't necessarily know how much of the fight took place offscreen, but those two birds got their asses kicked pretty quickly regardless.

It's my opinion that those new Warbirds are a lighter warship, possibly attack cruisers, whereas the D'Deridex are more of a GCS--stronger overall but too much like a Jack of all Trades.

And again, I don't know of any other Romulan superweapons.

Diversity can be a weakness as well as a strength. Because of the diverse nature of their fleet most Klingon ships would not be battleships and therefore are incapable of dealing with a Romulan warbird one on one. This could prove to be the undoing for the Klingon armada.

That's the thing, though:

Since they're far more numerous, Klingon ships wouldn't necessarily have to fight Warbirds one-on-one.

Ships like the Scimatar clearly show superior Romulan technology. Even if one Scimatar is let loose in Klingon space it could singlehandly turn the tide of the war.

Ahh, I dunno. If one Sovereign was able to do some damage to the Scimitar--which I maintain is "lost tech"--a fleet of Klingon ships oughta put it out of commission pretty quickly.

I don't know how much havoc it could wreak even in a sneak attack...if, for example, it appeared in orbit of Qo'nos and started charging up its radiation guns, the Klingons would have 7 minutes to pound the shit out of it with a local defense fleet. If Ty'Gokor's any indication, that means ~30 ships. Even mighty Scimitar wouldn't stand a chance against those odds.

Warbirds may not be that much more powerful than a Galaxy but they exist in large numbers and outguns most Klingons ships by a large margin. There are not many ships in the Klingon fleet that could take on a warbird.

Individually, perhaps not, but we're back to the issue of quantity vs. quality again. Typically, Vor'cha cruisers don't operate alone. Numerous times we saw them accompanied by the largish K'Vort battlecruisers ("Reunion," "The Mind's Eye") or at least several scout-class Birds-of-Prey ("Way of the Warrior").

We also know that, in "The Defector," the E-D and three of those large Birds made Tomalak run off with his tail between his legs. Though the FX in that episode made the Birds look implausibly huge, it's likely that they're the same size cruisers we often saw in TNG ("Yesterday's ENT," "Redemption," "Reunion," etc.).

And those things are outgunned two to one by a Vor'cha, or so Picard indicates in the transcripts.

I dunno...Romulan warships might not enjoy such a tremendous advantage 1-1. With 2 to 1 odds, the Klingon cruisers oughta handle Warbirds. And we know the Klingon fleet is definitely big enough to force such odds more often than not, prior to the Dominion War anyway.

Romulans make extensive use of cloaking devices. It is possible they chose to keep the bulk of their fleets cloaked to avoid taking heavy losses like the Klingon, using the Klingons as a punching bag to absorb damage from the Dominion forces.

I doubt they were cloaked. The Jem'Hadar were VERY adept at detecting cloaked ships. They'd make perfect targets.

Besides, I doubt the Federation and Klingons would be too pleased at taking the brunt of casualties while the Romulans hid during a fight.

A Vorcha class attack cruiser does not have quite the firepower and shielding needed to take down a warbird but I agree that they exist in large numbers. The superior numbers could be necessary to deal with the Romulan warbird forces. However a cloaked fleet of warbirds could strike unnoticed where the Klingon defenses are the weakest so it would be difficult to make use of the Vorcha's numerical advantage.

Maybe, but the Klingons do have means to detect cloaked ships...see the script from "Apocalypse Rising" in my previous post.

In this scenario the Klingons are recovering from the losses suffered in the Dominion war and would not have any significant numerical superiority.

Hmm...they might, yet. We know they were reamed in the War, but I think it's unrealistic to assume that Warbirds would be cleaning house against single ships on a frequent basis. Small KBoP and the old battlecruisers are rather small, easy to replace, and can be fielded in huge numbers.

That doesn't necessarily mean much, however. The Klingons would still need to beef up their ranks of big cruisers and the like if they wanted to seriously fight the Romulans.

They may not be true. The Romulans too would be developing in that time. Given the number of superweapons they built they advance their technology at a fast pace. Klingons could find themselves facing a technologicaly superior foe in the long run.

It's possible, yes.

But the Romulans still seem to be all hung up on the size of their members...err, "ships." Even the Valdore is a largish ship.

For every big Warbird the Romulans build, bad-ass that she might be, the Klingons could take the same mass of materials and build a Vor'cha, plus probably a half-dozen scout Birds-of-Prey. Individually those ships aren't up to taking on a Warbird (though I'd contend the Vor'cha isn't hopelessly outclassed), but 7 ships vs. 1? Adios Warbird.

The Romulan fleet desperately needs more diversity. They've always seemed to put too many quantum singularities in one basket. If I was in their shoes, I'd work like mad to come up with a Defiant style ship, something small but relatively cheap to mass produce.

Even if they had trouble miniaturizing powerful beam weapons a'la Defiant's phaser cannons, they could still make a small ship formidable by loading it with torpedo launchers. Something similar to their old-style BoP would be a step in the right direction, the perfect companion for their giant battleships.

You could probably do something nice by scaling up the scout class a few times and loading it with pulsed disruptors.

NecronLord wrote:
Oh dear. As I said in this thread IIRC the events in gensis would help the romulans.

Imagine if in 1943 a mad german had stolen Manhatten project research and made a working nuke, before dying along with his working nuke tech.

This would help the Manhatten proj as they would A) Know it's possible, and be encoraged and B) Gain extra funding as the govt now knows that it's not a wasted effort.

They've had years of increased funding and effort now. They would in reality succeed.

In gensis??? do you mean Generations?
Researching the trilithium tech does not automatically mean the Romulans can figure it out and develop the tech just because they researched it. It has eluded them thus far what makes them leap to the answer so fast now? more funding does not = more brainpower

PS. The trilithium was brought by the Duras sisters from a romulan outpost remember? Worf isn't privy to romulan secrets. His comments about it not working without him could even have been a bluff. It's hardly as if he'd say, "No, you don't need me now, all I am is a walking talking liability, best to slit my throaght because dead men tell no tales,"

I know where the trilithium came from, because it is the reason the Romulans tried to take it back. Worf may not be privy to the secrets of the Romulan empire, but I think that he is privy to Startfleet intelligence reports. I think that intelligence would be able to find out if the Romulans are able to stabilize something like trilithium to use for weapons purposes. If Romulans could have developed the tech that Soran did then Shinzon would have also used that in place of or in addition to the thelaron radiation weapon that took forever to charge. For all we know trilithium's instability just means it breaks down too fast to store for a period of time and stabilizing it just makes it storable.

It would be in reality logically impossible for slaves to produce such a thing on their own, where the fuck would they hide it, they were prerpetually supervised by Romulans.

Since when has canon Trek relied on reality? claiming to and doing are two different things. In Nemesis it was said the ship was built in secret so going by the 'suspesion of disbelief' rule you can't change that just because it isn't real enough for you.

The most likely probability is that the prototype (though possibly without the uber weapon) was supplied by shinzon's associates in the navy.

The Thelaron radiation weapon seemed a bit too much integrated into the ship to have been an accessory add on, basically since the whole ship itself was the weapon platform for the darn thing.

Death from the Sea wrote:Researching the trilithium tech does not automatically mean the Romulans can figure it out and develop the tech just because they researched it.

And one crackpot El-Aurian working in secret can outdo an entire Star Empire?

It has eluded them thus far what makes them leap to the answer so fast now? more funding does not = more brainpower

Yes it does, as it allows more scientists to be recruited.

I know where the trilithium came from, because it is the reason the
Romulans tried to take it back. Worf may not be privy to the secrets of the Romulan empire, but I think that he is privy to Startfleet intelligence reports. I think that intelligence would be able to find out if the Romulans are able to stabilize something like trilithium to use for weapons purposes. If Romulans could have developed the tech that Soran did then Shinzon would have also used that in place of or in addition to the thelaron radiation weapon that took forever to charge.

And if he only wanted to destroy one planet? And remember, the Tal-shiar probably has it, not Skippy's fleet backers.

For all we know trilithium's instability just means it breaks down too fast to store for a period of time and stabilizing it just makes it storable.

And?

Since when has canon Trek relied on reality? claiming to and doing are two different things. In Nemesis it was said the ship was built in secret so going by the 'suspesion of disbelief' rule you can't change that just because it isn't real enough for you.

You are taking what Shinzon says to his enemies, might he not be lying?

And FYI there is a point at which suspension of disbelief breaks down. I don't for example, have a very high opinion of the Matrix's perpetual motion.

The Thelaron radiation weapon seemed a bit too much integrated into the ship to have been an accessory add on, basically since the whole ship itself was the weapon platform for the darn thing.

Was it? Do we know how much space it took up? for all we know that bit data fired at plus the wings make up the entire weapon.

NecronLord wrote:And one crackpot El-Aurian working in secret can outdo an entire Star Empire?

Aparently so, otherwise by your reasoning the Romulans should have had the tech before Soran.

Yes it does, as it allows more scientists to be recruited.

More Romulan scientists does not mean more brain power, or the ability to miraculously comprehend something that has eluded them thus far. While two minds are better than one and four better than two; the Romulans using more scientists does not make each Romulan smarter.

And if he only wanted to destroy one planet? And remember, the Tal-shiar probably has it, not Skippy's fleet backers.

If you are going to destroy earth then why would you care if the rest of the Sol system goes too? The Tal-Shiar was effectively wiped out in the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast" along with the Obsidian Order.

You are taking what Shinzon says to his enemies, might he not be lying?

Why would he need to lie about that? If the Romulans who backed him gave him that ship then he should be advertising the fact that those Romulans had enough faith in him to fix the Romulan Star Empire that they gave him their newest and most powerful ship.

And FYI there is a point at which suspension of disbelief breaks down. I don't for example, have a very high opinion of the Matrix's perpetual motion.

Oh so 'suspension of disbelief' is only used when it is convenient.

Was it? Do we know how much space it took up? for all we know that bit data fired at plus the wings make up the entire weapon.

Even if that was all the space the weapon took up, the expanding wings modification would have been a major refit and noticed by the Romulans. And once again why would you give Shinzon your most powerful ship?

Death from the Sea wrote:Aparently so, otherwise by your reasoning the Romulans should have had the tech before Soran.

They had the concept and trilithium before him remember...

More Romulan scientists does not mean more brain power, or the ability to miraculously comprehend something that has eluded them thus far. While two minds are better than one and four better than two; the Romulans using more scientists does not make each Romulan smarter.

Hah. I think you'll find that a project with 2362 scientists working on it will have more brain power than one with 2. They don't need to make each romulan smarter, it's called spreading the workload.

If you are going to destroy earth then why would you care if the rest of the Sol system goes too?

And if you wanted to wipe out say... Romulus?

The Tal-Shiar was effectively wiped out in the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast" along with the Obsidian Order.

And?

Why would he need to lie about that? If the Romulans who backed him gave him that ship then he should be advertising the fact that those Romulans had enough faith in him to fix the Romulan Star Empire that they gave him their newest and most powerful ship.

Because he want's to make the Remans look good.

Oh so 'suspension of disbelief' is only used when it is convenient.

It's used to a certaian point.

Even if that was all the space the weapon took up, the expanding wings modification would have been a major refit and noticed by the Romulans. And once again why would you give Shinzon your most powerful ship?

Because he's the Praetor, and also the one who will lead you to victory over your enemies?