Borg/Bullet issue.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2003-06-20 08:18pm

I have a little tiny question, and I'm sure that this may have been covered before, but I couldn't find it, and so if it has been, just give me the link. If not, I still hold the question here.

A lot of people on this board have suggested that the whole holodeck Borg incursion with real holographic bullets stopped the Borg, ergo, the Borg are killed by bullets. Is this really the case? Are we sure this isn't just a case of "This is the first time (hard to believe it, yes, but...) that we've seen a Tommy gun, so we have yet to adapt" thing, and not a "We can't adapt at all thing"? I mean, if it was so effective all the time, then of course it's totally idiotic that they don't use these all the time now. Is there some kind of very good evidence to support this claim that they can't stand up to bullets ever?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-20 08:31pm

It's more an overall 'Borg can't adapt to KE(Kinetic Energy) because they are exposed so often and they never show a defense'. Lord Poe's site has the best picture compilation of this...

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-06-20 08:49pm

CaptJodan wrote:Is there some kind of very good evidence to support this claim that they can't stand up to bullets ever?

It is illogical to assume a capability unless it has been demonstrated (or at the very least, derived from other capabilities). The burden of proof is upon he who would claim that they can stand up to bullets.

Some claim that energy shielding must mean they can accomplish particle shielding, but that's weak because it ignores the momentum transfer problem inherent to physical collisions. I've always found it disturbing how many people can rant at length about science as it applies to sci-fi without recognizing a simple concept such as momentum.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2003-06-20 08:54pm

That sounds logical enough. It seems that they recieve no damage from photon torpedoes (even a kinetic impact, assuming they don't blow right before hitting the hull itself) but that doesn't mean that they can do the same with their people.

Now I just gotta find a link to Lord Poe's site, so that I may look at that.

thecreech · Post by **thecreech** » 2003-06-20 08:56pm

CaptJodan wrote:That sounds logical enough. It seems that they recieve no damage from photon torpedoes (even a kinetic impact, assuming they don't blow right before hitting the hull itself) but that doesn't mean that they can do the same with their people.

Now I just gotta find a link to Lord Poe's site, so that I may look at that.

just go the front of this site and go thru the web ring

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-20 09:25pm

What does it matter? In "Raven" it's shown shields are internal. Even if they could adapt to a bullet, the shield generator will get absorb the momentum and squish the internal organs.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2003-06-20 09:33pm

I can picture the Borg adapting to bullets or melee weapons. It won't involve some energy-based shield they pull out of their collective asses like what they do with energy weapons. It will probably be good old-fashioned body armor. Somebody in the collective must remember how their ancestors deat with these weapons, and will share it with the rest.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-20 10:51pm

CaptJodan wrote:Now I just gotta find a link to Lord Poe's site, so that I may look at that.

http://h4h.com/louis/borgs.html

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-06-20 11:39pm

CDiehl wrote:I can picture the Borg adapting to bullets or melee weapons. It won't involve some energy-based shield they pull out of their collective asses like what they do with energy weapons. It will probably be good old-fashioned body armor. Somebody in the collective must remember how their ancestors deat with these weapons, and will share it with the rest.

If they can adapt to melee weapons, shoudl they not have done that 100+ generations ago. Borg decides to assimilate a cave man, cave man hits borg with club. I also assume that most cultures develop some type of projectile weapon before energy weapon so they shoudl have been attacked by them numerous times.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-21 12:51am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:What does it matter? In "Raven" it's shown shields are internal. Even if they could adapt to a bullet, the shield generator will get absorb the momentum and squish the internal organs.

Correct. Even if the borg did develope kinetic shielding the laws of conservation of momentum will mean that they would not necessarily be immune to higher calibre rounds.

Also there could be a reason why borg drones do not have kinetic shielding. Notice that the drones are in contact with physical surfaces such as the floor when walking or standing. If they had kinetic shields the shields would be active all the time as they walked, stood or touched something. It would both be inconveniant and a drain on power.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2003-06-21 12:52am

CDiehl wrote:I can picture the Borg adapting to bullets or melee weapons. It won't involve some energy-based shield they pull out of their collective asses like what they do with energy weapons. It will probably be good old-fashioned body armor. Somebody in the collective must remember how their ancestors deat with these weapons, and will share it with the rest.

As Kit said, I find it VERY hard to believe that, in all the Borg's travels, throughout the entire galaxy, and all their assimilations, PLUS downloading NO LESS than Picard's knowledge (which has Shakespeare, which had some sword brawls in it's time, therefore those types of weapons would be introduced) not to mention all the other Feds they have taken in their time, that not one person had enough knowledge to allow the Borg to adapt to such primative weaponry. Just from the evidence shown on screen, it seems as if they don't adapt well to such things.

BTW, thanks for the link, gonna check it out tomorrow when I wake up.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 01:01am

CaptJodan wrote:As Kit said, I find it VERY hard to believe that, in all the Borg's travels, throughout the entire galaxy, and all their assimilations, PLUS downloading NO LESS than Picard's knowledge (which has Shakespeare, which had some sword brawls in it's time, therefore those types of weapons would be introduced) not to mention all the other Feds they have taken in their time, that not one person had enough knowledge to allow the Borg to adapt to such primative weaponry. Just from the evidence shown on screen, it seems as if they don't adapt well to such things.

Is it that hard to believe? Let's say the solution involves simple body armour. No problem, right? Well, their exoskeletal structure and equipment are largely "grown" from nanoprobes, which in turn must work with the minerals found in the human body. That limits their access to useful materials; you're not going to see a bunch of high-strength steel rifle plates being made from the iron that can be safely extracted from your body!

Given the mechanism of Borg assimilation and the reliance upon ultra-miniaturized internal body implants for important functions such as shielding (as demonstrated in "Raven"), there are some pretty clear reasons why the Borg should not be able to block simple projectiles. So the observation that they do not do so is hardly surprising.

By the way, primitive weapons can be the trickiest to solve. Modern tank armour is quite good at resisting many types of sophisticated weaponry. But drop a two ton block on top of that tank from any altitude, and it's dead from the impact.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-21 01:05am

Is it that hard to believe? Let's say the solution involves simple body armour. No problem, right? Well, their exoskeletal structure and equipment are largely "grown" from nanoprobes, which in turn must work with the minerals found in the human body. That limits their access to useful materials; you're not going to see a bunch of high-strength steel rifle plates being made from the iron that can be safely extracted from your body!

The human body contains large amounts of carbon, an element used to construct many high strength materials. Could not carbon be used make carbon fibre armour or any of those hi-tech materials being developed today ?

Regarding the lack of borg kinetic shielding I think my previous post gives a good explanation for it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 01:10am

evilcat4000 wrote:The human body contains large amounts of carbon, an element used to construct many high strength materials. Could not carbon be used make carbon fibre armour or any of those hi-tech materials being developed today?

If there's a such thing as truly bulletproof carbon-fibre armour, I haven't heard of it being used anywhere. When they make a carbon-fibre tank, I'll become a believer. Carbon fibres are lightweight and strong but they're not really bulletproof; they're just bullet resistant, ie- they slow down and trap the bullet. AP bullets will pass through a fibre vest, which is why you have to buy steel "rifle plate" inserts for full protection.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-06-21 01:14am

If there's a such thing as truly bulletproof carbon-fibre armour, I haven't heard of it being used anywhere. When they make a carbon-fibre tank, I'll become a believer. Carbon fibres are lightweight and strong but they're not really bulletproof; they're just bullet resistant, ie- they slow down and trap the bullet. AP bullets will pass through a fibre vest, which is why you have to buy steel "rifle plate" inserts for full protection.

Thank you for the information. I was always confused why lightweight carbon armour is not replacing conventional steel. Your explanations seems to be adequete. BTW what are the things that carbon fibre is good at ? I heard they make race cars out of it,, can you give me a few more examples ?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 01:24am

evilcat4000 wrote:Thank you for the information. I was always confused why lightweight carbon armour is not replacing conventional steel. Your explanations seems to be adequete. BTW what are the things that carbon fibre is good at ? I heard they make race cars out of it,, can you give me a few more examples ?

Carbon fibres have excellent tensile strength, but they are flexible. Think of them as super-strong strings. There are a lot of clever tricks for making structural components out of super-strong strings, woven together properly and put into a resin etc., but it's never really the same thing as a hunk of metal. The big advantage is that they are lightweight. A carbon-fibre box will weigh much less than a steel box, and its strength to weight ratio will be superior. However, the steel box's absolute strength will be much higher.

Racing bicycles are a common application, as are crash helmets. Ironically, the fact that carbon fibers aren't really all that strong is GOOD for a racecar body (this sounds weird, but bear with me), because it will collapse and buckle under impact rather than remaining rigid. An excessively strong racecar body (or crash helmet) won't have any "give" in it, so the most deformable structure in the race car will be ... the driver.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-21 01:30am

Deformation absorbs a great deal of energy. Hence crumple zones in modern automobiles.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-21 01:41am

Darth Wong wrote: If there's a such thing as truly bulletproof carbon-fibre armour, I haven't heard of it being used anywhere. When they make a carbon-fibre tank, I'll become a believer.

The British Army is working on one.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 01:46am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If there's a such thing as truly bulletproof carbon-fibre armour, I haven't heard of it being used anywhere. When they make a carbon-fibre tank, I'll become a believer.
The British Army is working on one.

Are you serious? Is it straight carbon fibre, or carbon fibre mixed into metal or ceramic somehow?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-21 01:58am

I expect that it would be a composite, with layers of carbon fiber to prevent the metallic or ceramic portions of the armor from spalling.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-21 02:02am

Howedar wrote:I expect that it would be a composite, with layers of carbon fiber to prevent the metallic or ceramic portions of the armor from spalling.

That would make sense, then. You still need the solid plate.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-21 02:06am

Bear in mind that I totally pulled that out of my ass. Its just an educated guess.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-06-21 02:06am

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If there's a such thing as truly bulletproof carbon-fibre armour, I haven't heard of it being used anywhere. When they make a carbon-fibre tank, I'll become a believer.
The British Army is working on one.
Are you serious? Is it straight carbon fibre, or carbon fibre mixed into metal or ceramic somehow?

Plastic Resin with Layers of carbon fiber sheets inside them(hundreds) but it is not entirely made of composites. I has Steel armor 3 in shething the outside. It can stand up to a Bradly but a Abrams would waste it. The Basic Idea is to make a tank light enough to be airdroped into remote areas by C-130's

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-21 02:13am

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote: The British Army is working on one.
Are you serious? Is it straight carbon fibre, or carbon fibre mixed into metal or ceramic somehow?

I believe its being used in accompaniment with glass reinforced plastic, of which both the British and US Armies have built armored vehicles.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-21 02:16am

Isolder74 wrote: Plastic Resin with Layers of carbon fiber sheets inside them(hundreds) but it is not entirely made of composites. I has Steel armor 3 in shething the outside. It can stand up to a Bradly but a Abrams would waste it. The Basic Idea is to make a tank light enough to be airdroped into remote areas by C-130's

Neither the British nor America army is working on an air droppable AFV.

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Borg/Bullet issue.

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