Limit on Constitution Class phasers

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-30 06:56pm

In Tommorow is Yesterday the U.S.S. Enterprise is thrown back in time due to a black hole to the 20th century Earth. With its shields out, Commander Spock states that a fighter investigating them might have a nuclear warhead and could do damage. If Spock roughly knew this was only a kiloton level warhead (say 10) the hull of a Constitution class can be damaged by 5 kilotons (the E-Nil would not absorb more then half the explosion, and propably less.

In The Ultimate Computer during a wargame exercise, phasers are set to 1% power so they would do any damage. Shields were also lowered. Since hull shots would be possible, 1% phaser must be lower then 5 kilotons and 100% phasers must be lower then 500 kilotons

Note: This is all by memory. If I got something wrong feel free to correct me.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-06-30 09:40pm

Interesting. I wonder what the cult of connie would say about that.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-30 09:56pm

Demiurge wrote:Interesting. I wonder what the cult of connie would say about that.

BL4zf3my! t3H enT3rpriz h4z 9999999999999999999999999999999999 Gig-t0n phazrz! :some really stupid looking smiley:

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2003-06-30 10:11pm

Demiurge wrote:Interesting. I wonder what the cult of connie would say about that.

I know how. [rabid trekkie mode] The Enterprise was much stronger then other Constitution Class because she had a layer of Corbomite included in the hull.[/rabid trekkie mode] Notice my use of the rabid Trekkie debating techiques of ignoring Grand Admiral Thrawn's observation about the Connie's hull strength and "re-interpreting" a fact from the series. Also liberal amounts of Bull Shit.

Note: Corbomite was a material Kirk made up as a bluff.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-30 10:17pm

Wow. Thats very nice, GAT.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-30 10:32pm

Does anyone know if it was an F-106 or 101? If it was the former, the limit is actually 150 kilotons (it most definitely was not an F-89).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-30 10:36pm

The plane that intercepted was an F-104 as I recall, which only carried Sidewinders historically. If modified in might have been able to haul a single Genie over very short range.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-30 10:47pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:The plane that intercepted was an F-104 as I recall, which only carried Sidewinders historically. If modified in might have been able to haul a single Genie over very short range.

It was a Starfighter? This has a short clip of the fighter.

[url=http://supreme_sheridan.tripod.com/images/tos_fighter1.txt]Here[/url] is a screenshot of it. Love the advanced Trek special effects eh?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-06-30 11:37pm

Yeah, that's an F-104.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-06-30 11:43pm

BL4zf3my! t3H enT3rpriz h4z 9999999999999999999999999999999999 Gig-t0n phazrz! :some really stupid looking smiley:

I think I'm going to sig that, if its ok YT.

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-07-01 02:14am

Perhaps it's the sorta damage like an A-Wing through a ISD's birdge windows? A one in a million, golden BB type of thing that should never happen in actual combat but could potentially be a crippeling blow. Afterall, the E-nil's impulse engines weren't that well armored where the emitter grills were out of design necessity, nor were the front of her nacelles. With sheilds down, it is possible that a nearby airburst or contact detonation could damage these areas.

If it actually says in the epp dialogue that such a nuke would physically harm the HULL, then I'm sorry for even posting. But IIRC, Spock only mentioned that an low yeild nuke going off could DAMAGE the E-nil, with no specifics as to how or how much. (shrug) my $0.02.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-01 02:41am

I believe he stated hull damage. At any rate, it would be illogical to base a course of action on a one-in-a-million chance.

I confirm F-104, by the way.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-01 05:21am

Remember that nukes are spherical detonation weapons, so only a fraction of that KT-range yield is actually going to damage the hull (no more than half, and likely no more than a sixth or so.)

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-07-01 10:05am

Updated for Starfighter and spherical explosion (can't believe I forgot that).

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-07-01 02:54pm

With these calculated figures for phaserfire, is it possible to arrive at a broad estimate for the time required to perform a General Order 24 operation?

On a mildly related note, this could explain why the upgraded Constitution-class starship routed phaserfire through the warp core to afford increased firepower, even though it meant the loss of phasers when the warp core was down or operating abnormally (The Motion Picture). This could be an implicit indication of the apprehension wherewith the Starfleet first viewed the Klingon Empire's new K't'inga-class heavy cruisers.

Publius

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-07-01 06:04pm

From Tommorow is Yesterday:

Spock:
Positive identification, Captain.
Aircraft is an interceptor,
equipped with missiles, possibly armed with nuclear warheads.
If he hits us with one, he might damage us severely,
perhaps beyond our capacity to repair under current circumstances.

Damages to the hull are not easily repaired away from a starbase, and Spock indicates it is likely they could make repaires, but there is a possibility the damage will be too severe (Hit the pilon for example... that should break without the power for SIF). Also, without the power for SIF, the hull would be more readily damaged.

And I'm afraid shields were up during the M-5 combat test:

Enterprise from Commodore Wesley
aboard the U.S.S. Lexington.
This is an unscheduled M-5 drill.
Repeat. This is an M-5 drill.
Enterprise, acknowledge on this frequency.
Acknowledge, Lieutenant.
M-5 has acknowledged for us, sir.
Then go to red alert.
Aye, sir.
[Alarm Sounds] M-5 has already ...
sounded the red alert.
Mr. Sulu, phasers 1/100 power.
No damage potential, Just enough to nudge them.
Phasers 1/100 power, sir.
Phaser hit on port deflector four, Captain.
Speed increasing to warp 3.
Turning now to 112 mark 5.
Phasers locking on target, sir.
Enemy vessel closing with us.
Main phasers firing.
A hit, sir.
Two more.
Changing course to 28 mark 42.
Phasers firing again.
Turning to 113 mark 5.
Warp 4 speed.
Firing again.
Attacking vessels are moving off.
Moving back to original course and speed.
Report on damage sustained in mock attack.
Minor hit on deflector screen four.
No appreciable damage.
Rather impressive display for a machine,
wouldn't you say, Captain?

Emphasis mine. Well, shields were up, and the crippled Enterprise in Tommow is Yesterday was likely more readily damaged than normal. A nice try GAT, but the presence of shields throws quite a monkey wrentch in the works.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-01 09:18pm

How can we assume that Spock knew the type of warhead carried, if he only thought that the missiles might be armed with nuclear warheads.

It is possible Spock believed a higher-yield nuke.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-07-01 09:19pm

When I said shields were lowered I meant in strength. IIRC in the second exercise a few full power phaser blasts does heavy damage to the Excalibur so shields must have been decreased. Besides, the shields could be knocked down in a wargame. they wouldn't use potentially damaging weapons. Look:

Mr. Sulu, phasers 1/100 power .
No damage potential, Just enough to nudge them.

Compared to:

If he hits us with one, he might damage us severely,

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-07-01 09:21pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:How can we assume that Spock knew the type of warhead carried, if he only thought that the missiles might be armed with nuclear warheads.

It is possible Spock believed a higher-yield nuke.

He apparently knew a bit about the interceptor. I would expect he knew that they only carried low yield weapons.

And the F-104 isn't even an interceptor! GRR!!!

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-01 09:34pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It is possible Spock believed a higher-yield nuke.

Possible, but he'd certainly know that the rockets were, say, under 1MT apiece. That still puts a sharp limit on the power of Connie phasers, compared to some "estimates".

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-07-01 11:58pm

Does Spock know many details about 20th century Earth (besides his visit there in ST:IV)? If he doesn't, he could have been wildly guessing that the "interceptor" was armed with nukes based on vague knowledge of the humans using those types of weapons during the time period.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-02 01:12am

He would probably have a clue as to what the F-104 was carrying; he already knew it could carry nukes.

On another note, it would be rather unlike Spock to talk out of his ass. If he didn't know what he was dealing with, he would refrain from comment.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-07-02 05:33am

Since they were worried that the nuke from the F-104 could reach the Enterprise, the Enterprise must have been in Earths atmosphere. That would mean that there would be a shockwave from the nuke, rather then just radiation, as would be the case with a nuke in space.

The shockwave from even a relatively small nuke would put quite a strain on the Enterprises structure, particulary due to it's desing (those thin poles attaching the warp nacelles to the engineering hull and the saucer sections neck). She wouldn't have to worry about this with phaser hits.

Vexx · Post by **Vexx** » 2003-07-02 07:06am

Hello. I'm new here so bare with me. I'm just trying to straighten the facts.

I applaud your logic GAT but I see some things wrong with it.

Firstly, the Enterprise didn't merely have it's shields down. It was suffering from a severe lack of power, everything except secondaries down, and was running on impulse power only and barely had enough power just to get out of the atmosphere.

Secondly, that is an F-104C, which does not carry the Genie. It carries the Mk-28 which has a warhead of 1 megaton, not 1.5 kilotons. F-104's only carried Mk-28s.

Therefore your estimation of 75 kiloton max should be 50 megatons.

Also, Spock states that the damage might not be repairable under "current circumstances" (ie secondary impulse power only, no shields, etc) so its obvious there was no actual threat of irrepairable harm from the nuke, merely "damage". Which could be anything from someone dropping their food to superficial hull damage (a dent).

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-07-02 07:27am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:In The Ultimate Computer during a wargame exercise, phasers are set to 1% power so they would do any damage. Shields were also lowered. Since hull shots would be possible, 1% phaser must be lower then .75 kilotons and 100% phasers must be lower then 75 kilotons

.75 KT's?

Is that the eqivalent to me throwing a rock?

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Limit on Constitution Class phasers

Limit on Constitution Class phasers

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