New Trek Canon

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-01 03:22am

(Looks like ASVS is dead, so I'll repost here)

I've brought up the idea of core "VS" fans setting the rules for Trek canon ourselves before. It didn't get anywhere the last time due to a few not
being able to accept Paramount's CURRENT policy as stated. =glares at Chris=

So I'm doing it again. Its obvious to quite a few Trekkies, even Graham
Kennedy, that Paramount doesn't give two shits about a proper canon policy for Trek. There's an award-winning, damned well-written webpage
http://h4h.com/louis/sources.html =glares at Chris= which speaks about this. Why are two Trek novels, "Mosaic" and "Pathways" considered "canon" by Paramount, but not the novelization for "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" written by Gene Roddenberry?

A lot of great reference material has been written for Trek, even eclipsing
the Tech Manuals. The Star Trek Magazine and Star Trek Fact Files are
excellently researched and well illustrated, and take their information
primarily from aired episodes or movies. What it fleshes in is taken from
Writer's Bibles from the TV shows, (which writers follow to MAKE the shows) and the Tech Manuals, when necessary. Some Trek novels have ventured to shore up a lot of continuity glitches. I understand the "Khan" novels do this excellently, with the Eugenics Wars and such. (Haven't read them..)

So...lets start debating. =glares at Chris= Should we start a movement here to have Trek continuity follow the Star Wars model? Movies and TV shows the ultimate canon. (But then we have to do a sub vote on who wins if one of them violates the canon of the movies or TV show.) Next would be screenplays, then novelizations.

Novelizatios exist for all the movies, and a few of the episodes as well. (Although the old James Blish TOS novellas are REALLY out there.) Official materials, which can't override the canon but would be perfectly acceptable in a debate otherwise would the be the The Star Trek Magazine, Star Trek Fact Files, the encyclopedia, and (good) novels. Hey, I'm just throwing out ideas, so join in.

Or, should we leave well enough alone? =glares at Chris=

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-01 03:24am

Shit...wrong forum. Move if necessary!

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-01 12:12pm

Off to PST!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-12-01 01:24pm

A strong vote for the Movie - TV - Novels model.

Why Movie above TV? A response to the whine from idiot Trekkies that 'SFX cost money to do right', so logically, scaling any of the SFX from the movies would be most accurate.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-12-01 01:33pm

SirNitram wrote:A strong vote for the Movie - TV - Novels model.

Why Movie above TV? A response to the whine from idiot Trekkies that 'SFX cost money to do right', so logically, scaling any of the SFX from the movies would be most accurate.

But novels have no SFX budget!

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-12-01 03:01pm

Supposedly, the lethargic battle from Generations was the result of penny-pinching, although I'm tempted to say that's just Ron Moore trying to cover his ass from the fans.

I'd be supportive of such an endeavour. Certainly, we'd have a lot more gusto for it than Paramount would be willing to put forth.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-12-01 03:36pm

(reposted from ASVS which is NOT dead as Poe claims, just lethargic)

I'll repeat a long held belief of mine.

I believe that there should be a lower order set of "facts" for Star Tek
akin to the "official" designation that most of the SW Eu material carries.
I believe that the group of works included should be limited, in msot
respects, to material drawn most directly frmo the canon ST. In that vein I
would include:

1) Novelisations of aired espisodes and movies (all the rest of the
paperbacks/hardbacks get left in the dustbin). I say this ebcause we know
that the events to which the novels refer to happened in actual ST canon so
it would seem that the novelisations are the best drawn inferences of
knowledgeable sources and thus out to count as something.

2) The TMs, The Encyclopedia, & The Chronology. I say these because they are relatively well researched and rather thurough in their attempt to cover the vast technical minefield that is ST continuity. If not for just their effort
then for their attempt to at least establish an average ebtween the wildly
varying estimates we might otehrwise get I feel these works deserve some
mention. Beyond the fact that they are sitll referenced (though we always
note that they no longer have any status).

Everything else I'm kinda iffy on. I've nto seen the Fact Files so I can't
comment on them and the rest of the material seems rather iffy to me as a
source but I'd leave that up to anyone else who wants to propose
changes/shifts/additions.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-12-01 05:12pm

I could see a Movies-Tv-novelizations of onscreen events thing. Though would TV outrank movies?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-01 05:26pm

SirNitram wrote:A strong vote for the Movie - TV - Novels model.

Why Movie above TV? A response to the whine from idiot Trekkies that 'SFX cost money to do right', so logically, scaling any of the SFX from the movies would be most accurate.

That actually makes sense!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-01 05:36pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:(reposted from ASVS which is NOT dead as Poe claims, just lethargic)

Cool! I'll have to go check it out!

I'll repeat a long held belief of mine.
snip

Everything else I'm kinda iffy on. I've nto seen the Fact Files so I can't comment on them and the rest of the material seems rather iffy to me as a source but I'd leave that up to anyone else who wants to propose
changes/shifts/additions.

The above sounds reasonable. From what I understand, the Fact Files are the UK equivalent to the Star Trek Magazine. What really got me hooked on these are the great looking illustrations and blueprints, command board layout, etc. One mag was dedicated to being basically a full-color TM for TOS, which looked great! They even had the variations of Sulu's station from season one to season three!

Here's a couple scans from ST Magazine, illustrating DS9's weaponry:

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds91.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds92.jpg

http://h4h.com/louis/jpgs/ds93.jpg

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-12-01 06:13pm

I think it would be a good idea to make a 'TimeTales' type chronology for this 'Fan Canon' to fit the novels in, and a accompanying Tech document

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-12-01 06:53pm

*snip*

I love you too Wayne

As I recall, it was you and Kynes who pushed constently for the expulsion of the TM's from the group. These days I simply follow Paramounts set policy in absentia of any other policy.

Personaly I don't have any problems accepting the novels of episodes / movies as having a status akin to offical in SW, that is cannon unless directly overulled by the episode/movie itself. Its only logical given that they were written at the time of said productions, off the scripts and screenings of the episode, then approved by Trek producers.

The TM's and similar things I'm a little iffy about. Just because while the novels are by necessity VERY specific and constrained, they are much wider ranging and generalised. And often have quite a lot of contradictions in them with the series and movies. But I'd have to research the fact files and magazines before passing any judgement. It would also be interesting to see how consistent the Fact Files / Magagines are with the Technical Manuals...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-01 08:34pm

No regularly published magazine should be considered canon. They're never written entirely (or even partially, in most case) "in-universe".

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-12-01 09:14pm

I agree with Darth Wong on the magazines.

Lord Poe, why not make this an 'offical project'.

I'll join the Board of Directors if you do

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-01 10:28pm

Darth Wong wrote:No regularly published magazine should be considered canon. They're never written entirely (or even partially, in most case) "in-universe".

Ah, but ST The Mag did exactly that, for all the technical briefings. It read like a tech summary report whenever it dealt with ship systems and other tech. It gave stardates or era cues, like the Dominion War, whenever anything was upgraded or changed, never episode names.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-01 10:47pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:*snip*

I love you too Wayne As I recall, it was you and Kynes who pushed constently for the expulsion of the TM's from the group.

That's because no one wanted to change the policy, but still wanted to claim the "new" TMs were canon based on a misinterpretation of the startrek.com faq. But let's not go there again!

snip

The TM's and similar things I'm a little iffy about. Just because while the novels are by necessity VERY specific and constrained, they are much wider ranging and generalised. And often have quite a lot of contradictions in them with the series and movies. But I'd have to research the fact files and magazines before passing any judgement. It would also be interesting to see how consistent the Fact Files / Magagines are with the Technical Manuals...

I think they're a marked improvement. The onlyy time they speculate is when they do cross-sections of things we haven't seen opened on air before. I think that's when they consult the TMs.

BTW, the Mag is now out of print. Don't know the status of the Fact Files.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-12-04 07:05pm

So Lord Poe, you gonna start this up as a project or not?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-04 07:16pm

I am rather interested in this really. I would love to be able to use sources from TMs, novels (when possible) and the magazine.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-12-04 07:52pm

I'm not sure on including the novels... given their crazy, 'out-there' nature. But then, I hate the SW novels too.

I agree it would be good to use other sources for ST, but I question the quality and validity of the ST novels. I've read some. They are Not Good. I don't mean technically, as books (although that too) I simply doubt how much can be drawn from them, given that they lose any contradiction with movies/eps. Even Paramount didn't bother trying to keep them consistent with each other.

The TNG TM is pretty much useless. Everything I remember from it (years ago) is bunk.

So, while I think its a good initiative, how much do we honestly expect to get from sources of such low quality as the early TNG novels and TM?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-04 08:26pm

Stark wrote:The TNG TM is pretty much useless. Everything I remember from it (years ago) is bunk.

Then you remember incorrectly. Much of it is good information that was rarely used or contradicted.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-12-04 09:23pm

Lord Poe wrote:snippity

I agree that it's the better part of fairness to use comparable models for the canon question of both universes. However, I think it should be put to a vote in the Vs. forum, with Mike's approval, and each item for canon, official or supporting status voted on as well. After all, the debate's pretty much been done to death otherwise, but we don't want to get TOO crazy with what we throw into the mix.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-05 12:11am

Stark wrote:The TNG TM is pretty much useless. Everything I remember from it (years ago) is bunk.

Considering what the writers had to work with (a lot of inconsistant scientific bullshit) I think it is a remarkably good book.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-12-05 01:43am

An interesting idea I must say. There's going to be some very interesting contradictions though. Right off the bat I know a few novels that consistently mention Federation starships generating equal/more power than hundreds of suns.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-12-05 03:28am

Stark wrote:I'm not sure on including the novels... given their crazy, 'out-there' nature. But then, I hate the SW novels too.

Stark, I think he is talking about the EPISODE novels, not the story novels.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-12-05 10:53am

Solauren wrote:So Lord Poe, you gonna start this up as a project or not?

Sorry! I am reading the threads, and collating the different opinions, but I've only been on the net in short bursts lately.

My sis has made me an uncle again! All will be well herer and on (ASVS) about Sunday! Now, back on topic, ye cretins!

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