United Federation of Planets vs the Klingon Star Empire

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-11 03:08am

In the year the Cardassian-Klingon war occured the Klingons decide to go to war with the Federation instead. Who would win the conflict ? Other powers including the Cardassians and the Dominion alliance remains neutral.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-07-11 03:21am

The Klingons trashed the Feds in the timeline where the Ent-C vanished, and they're always prepared for war, whereas the Feds had only just begun their preperations for war with the Dominion. Moreover, the Federation would not be expecting a Klingon attack due to the peace treaty, and would get caught with their pants down.

So, the Klingons walk it.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-11 03:36am

I thought the Klingon fleet had problems, like being biased towards BOPs, having a lousy ROF/accuracy, and apart from Negh'var being inferior to most Fed ships?

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2004-07-11 04:48am

Where was it said that the Negh'Var is inferior to most Federation ships? I would imagine that the Negh'Var is more powerful than most of the ships in Starfleet.

And it the Ent-C timeline it took the Klingons more than 20 years of continuos fighting to bring down the Federation.

If the war started in DS9 time, I don't think the Klingons will have much of a chance of victory or even survival unless they were able to secure a quick and decisive victory.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-07-11 05:09am

Lord MJ wrote:And it the Ent-C timeline it took the Klingons more than 20 years of continuos fighting to bring down the Federation.

Relationships between the Klingons and the Feds were pretty bad back then, so you'd assume the Feds were better prepared for a war with the Klingons. In DS9's timeframe, the Feds would be expecting an attack from the Dominion, not the Klingons, so they'd get wrongfooted.

I'm not saying the Klingons would win in Blitzkreig fashion, but I believe they would be the ultimate winners.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-11 06:40am

DaveJB wrote:The Klingons trashed the Feds in the timeline where the Ent-C vanished,

The key point you neglect to mention is that this occured in an 'alternate timeline', meaning there's no reason that the events that occured in another universe would follow exactly in the 'official' timeline.

So, the Klingons walk it.

The reverse is more likely. This scenario already occured in the official timeline, and the end result was the Klingons couldn't advance far into Federation space. This is AFTER a full YEAR worth of preparations. According to this new scenario, the Klingons attack the Federation as opposed to the Cardassians. If a pissy little outpost like DS9 can withstand so many ships - and DS9 is by no means the biggest or most powerful starbase in Starfleet's arsenal - then the Klingons are (best case scenario) going to pay for every parsec they advance into Federation territory. Worst case scenario their attack get's blunted at the first strategic target they attempt to assault.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2004-07-11 09:41am

What I don't get is that the Ent-C timeline Klingon war started not that long after the Praxis explosion which should have done quite a bit of damage to the Klingon economy.

They should have lost that war.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2004-07-11 02:49pm

I think that Klingons' ability to wage a full-scale war is somewhat overestimated. From "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" (DS9):

SLOAN
To evaluate an ally -- and a
temporary ally at that. I say
that because when the war's over,
the following will happen in
short order: The Dominion will
be forced back to the Gamma
Quadrant. The Cardassian Empire
will be occupied. The Klingon
Empire will spend the next ten
years recovering from the war and
won't pose a major threat to
anyone. That leaves two powers
to vie for control of the
quadrant -- the Federation and
the Romulans.

Romulans entered the war relatively late, so it's not surprising that their casualties remained low. The Federation, however, was always involved in the heaviest fighting, yet Sloan thinks that the war merely consolidated their position as the strongest power in the Alfa and Beta Quadrants.

In DS9, we only saw one Negh'Var class vessel, General Martok's flagship. There obviously isn't many of them in service at the time when DS9 takes place.

@ Jeremy

AFAIK the Romulan attack on Khitomer occured in the 2340's, while TUC took place in 2293.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-11 03:13pm

Provided we ignore outside political considerations, the Federation would have won the war. They had an industry that could easily be geared towards war and their fleet had superior designs ready for use against the Klingons. The Vorcha is nice, but its beat out by the Galaxy and Nebula by a substansial margin and an Intrepid is about equal to it. The Negh'Var is real nice, but it is in extremely limited numbers.

The Federation has the fleet size along with ship designs to win the war.

BornIn1142 · Post by **BornIn1142** » 2004-07-11 03:48pm

@ Alyeska

The Interpid isn't actually that powerful. It seems to be more of a science/scout type ship. It's considerably smaller than other ships of that time. Barring the Fefiant, of course. But that's different alltogether.

The only reasons it survived the Delta Quadrant were the bridge-crew's chraracter shields, technobabble and the deflector drive.

BornIn1142 · Post by **BornIn1142** » 2004-07-11 03:56pm

Grrrrrr! Deflector shield.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-11 04:38pm

BornIn1142 wrote:The Interpid isn't actually that powerful. It seems to be more of a science/scout type ship. It's considerably smaller than other ships of that time. Barring the Fefiant, of course. But that's different alltogether.

The Intrepid is quite well armed for it's size: 11 phaser strips and 4 photon torpedo launchers (of course, these are single-fire launchers: the Galaxy class has only two, but these can burst-fire multiple photons at once), and decent shields. It was clearly meant to look after itself in combat if need be.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-11 05:03pm

Those phaser strips are fairly small, though, although I think the Intrepid might be able to burst fire two torpedos from each forward launcher... I think that occurred in Dreadnought.

However, the Intrepid torpedo stores are severely limited compared to that of the Galaxy.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2004-07-11 05:04pm

Jeremy wrote:What I don't get is that the Ent-C timeline Klingon war started not that long after the Praxis explosion which should have done quite a bit of damage to the Klingon economy.

They should have lost that war.

The Praxis explosion occured 60 years before the Enterprise-C was destroyed.

BornIn1142 · Post by **BornIn1142** » 2004-07-11 05:06pm

Uraniun235 wrote:However, the Intrepid torpedo stores are severely limited compared to that of the Galaxy.

That's how it should be at least.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-07-11 05:41pm

With writing like that, is it any wonder that Trekkies are so fond of the "No Limits" fallacy?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-12 01:17am

In DS9, we only saw one Negh'Var class vessel, General Martok's flagship. There obviously isn't many of them in service at the time when DS9 takes place.

However it appears that the Klingons did construct more Neghvar vessels after the war. In "Endgame" for instance we see 3 Neghvar battleships.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-07-12 04:35pm

Lord MJ wrote:Where was it said that the Negh'Var is inferior to most Federation ships? I would imagine that the Negh'Var is more powerful than most of the ships in Starfleet.

IIRC most of the Negh'Var's firepower is based on its forward arc, and it's speed and manuverability is less than most Fed ships. I don't think that it is so much a matter of being inferior, as it is vastly different configuration.

As far as the topic, if the Feds are already on war footing, I can see them taking it.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-07-12 11:40pm

I think the Federation can defeat the Klingons easily in just about any conflict. First, I'm not sure, but I get the feeling the Federation is bigger and better at moving resources where they need to go than the Klingons. Second, Starfleet ships are designed with combat as their secondary purpose, yet they still win wars against groups whose ships are designed solely for combat. Third, they've fought the Klingons and won several times before, and I have no reason to think the Klingons have gotten any better. Fourth, the Klingons have almost no tactics to speak of, so battles with them are turkey shoots.

Also, what would the Klingons' goal be in such a war? The way to assess how they'd do is to decide what they want to accomplish, and since the Federation won't invade, the Klingons have to start the war.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-13 01:38am

Those phaser strips are fairly small, though, although I think the Intrepid might be able to burst fire two torpedos from each forward launcher... I think that occurred in Dreadnought.

There has been other occasions where this has been done. In "Equinox" the Intrepid class Voyeger fired four torpedoes from the forward launchers. Then again in "Human Error" four torpedoes were fired by aft launchers.

However, the Intrepid torpedo stores are severely limited compared to that of the Galaxy.

According to "Scorpion" the Intrepid has a complement of only 32 torpedoes. It could fire only 8 full bursts before running out. This might be the reason why Voyeger rarely fired full bursts.

One interesting thing about Voyeger I read somewhere on DITL was she fired 90 torpedoes ! It is like the endless supplies of shuttles. Either the writers dont know how to count or Voyger can manufacture torpedoes onboard.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-13 09:54am

Its worth noting that Voyager is not a normal case for Intrepid class ships.

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2004-07-15 12:07pm

The Federation has dune buggys, Klingons charge there enemies with primitive bladed weapons on foot.

The Feddies at least shoot at a range and take cover.

On the ship count, it would go to Feddies. Defiant class ships are kickass for there size, if they swicth to war galaxies, bie bie Klingies!

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-07-15 12:34pm

Lord MJ wrote:Where was it said that the Negh'Var is inferior to most Federation ships? I would imagine that the Negh'Var is more powerful than most of the ships in Starfleet.

The USS Defiant took on a Negh'var in shattered mirror, after having destroyed 3 bird of preys and a Galor. The shields were already failing- the first volley from the Negh'var finished the shields. Sisko took the helm station, and fought the neghvar. They did the entire battle WITHOUT TAKING A SINGLE HIT (dodged every shot), and utterly SPANKED the negh'var, hulling it repeatedly until even a Klingon decided to run.

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2004-07-15 05:10pm

Praxis wrote:
Lord MJ wrote:Where was it said that the Negh'Var is inferior to most Federation ships? I would imagine that the Negh'Var is more powerful than most of the ships in Starfleet.
The USS Defiant took on a Negh'var in shattered mirror, after having destroyed 3 bird of preys and a Galor. The shields were already failing- the first volley from the Negh'var finished the shields. Sisko took the helm station, and fought the neghvar. They did the entire battle WITHOUT TAKING A SINGLE HIT (dodged every shot), and utterly SPANKED the negh'var, hulling it repeatedly until even a Klingon decided to run.

I said most of the ships in Starfleet not all of them. The Defiant is one of the most powerful ships in Starfleet. Also the Negh'Var's size in this case was a huge disadvantage. A larger Federation shiip would not have fared nearly as well as the Defiant. Also note that the Defiant had taken several hits from the Negh'Var as well as BOPs in that battle. And the NeghVar's weapons were powerful enough that a single hit from it's heavy disruptors would've destroyed the Defiant, that was mentioned on screen by Smiley. When the Defiant was strafing the Negh'Var a BOP approached and Sisko opted to stay close to the Negh'Var rather than retreat from the BOP because then the Negh'Var would've had a clear shot and the Defiant would've been destroyed.

Also I should note that that Negh'Var was not actually a Negh'Var. It was many, Many times larger than the real Negh'Var. At least 2 km in length. Most likely this was a variant of some sort, never actually produced in the real universe.

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2004-07-15 05:15pm

Zor wrote:The Federation has dune buggys, Klingons charge there enemies with primitive bladed weapons on foot.

The Feddies at least shoot at a range and take cover.

On the ship count, it would go to Feddies. Defiant class ships are kickass for there size, if they swicth to war galaxies, bie bie Klingies!

Although it is a running joke around on this board, the Klingon Batleth charge is exaggerated. We've never seen the Klingon's use bladed weapons in anything other than small scale, and or close quarter combat.

You're assuming that a large scale land battle involving large armies the Klingons would charge the enemy army en masse using Batleths. There is no evidence at all to assume such a thing.

The Klingons have access to heavy artillery, and modern ground weaponry, so I doubt they would rely on Batleth charges against a large enemy force.