Full Impulse = c ?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 2004-07-18 06:43pm

In any episode of any Star Trek series have they reached the speed of light, or faster, using just the impulse engines?

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2004-07-18 07:22pm

Jeremy wrote:In any episode of any Star Trek series have they reached the speed of light, or faster, using just the impulse engines?

Uhmm, full impulse is not the speed of light. It is .75c.

As far as I know, Warp One is the speed of light.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-18 07:35pm

Tee hee, 'full impulse' would be full acceleration, not speed. Doubtless ST ships are capable of relativistic speeds, but 'full impulse' ain't it.

But they use tricky subspace bullshit on their impulse drives too now; obviously their ion drive tech hit a dead end. But technically there isn't 'pure' impulse anymore, since its always being helped by the warp drive.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-07-18 07:55pm

Stark wrote:Tee hee, 'full impulse' would be full acceleration, not speed. Doubtless ST ships are capable of relativistic speeds, but 'full impulse' ain't it.

Full impulse HAS been shown at times to have an acceleration curve sufficet to reach near C velocities.

But they use tricky subspace bullshit on their impulse drives too now; obviously their ion drive tech hit a dead end.

....why? Just because they don't want to waste a massive amount of space building super large ion engines? I've always thought of their system as very efficent. Rather then having to build a massive warp engine system and a massive IPS system, they only have to build a massive Warp system and a relativly small IPS drive unit.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-18 07:57pm

Full impulse, regardless of it's acceleration, will always ultimately get the ship up to a speed that is, effectively, c. given enough time.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-07-18 08:17pm

kojikun wrote:Full impulse, regardless of it's acceleration, will always ultimately get the ship up to a speed that is, effectively, c. given enough time.

Only if you're totally unfamiliar with the special theory of relativity.

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-18 08:25pm

Does anyone else remember star trek: generations when the excelsior (i think) is taken for a spin around pluto? Its the trip where the ship is struck by the energy ribbon and Kirk is taken into the nexus. I remember that the captain of that ship said the warp drive wasn't installed yet and that a short cruise around pluto would take 8 mins (if i remember correctly). If we know where the journey started then we can see if impulse exceeds c.

This sound familiar to anyone else?

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2004-07-18 08:40pm

jesus didn't they ban that rick ricardo wannabe?

In TNG BOBW ep 2 the "E-D" went from the outerrim of Sol to earth in 42 minutes.

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-18 08:53pm

rick ricardo wannabe?

Who are you talking about Lead?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-07-18 09:14pm

Allbran_Sustain wrote:Does anyone else remember star trek: generations when the excelsior (i think) is taken for a spin around pluto? Its the trip where the ship is struck by the energy ribbon and Kirk is taken into the nexus. I remember that the captain of that ship said the warp drive wasn't installed yet and that a short cruise around pluto would take 8 mins (if i remember correctly). If we know where the journey started then we can see if impulse exceeds c.

You're mistaken. The Enterprise-B did have its warp drive and used it for the 3 LY transit to intercept the Ribbon.

Evidently, the warp drive systems were installed the previous Tuesday. It was everything else that was on back-order for next Tuesday.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-18 09:16pm

Allbran_Sustain wrote:
rick ricardo wannabe?
Who are you talking about Lead?

You, if I'm not mistaken. Not everyone believes in your miraculous turnaround.

And Laird, yes, he was banned, but the ban was reversed, on a probational basis, after he promised to be on his best behavior, since the admins decided shitcanning him after only 7 posts might have been hasty.

And that's the end of this discussion in this thread.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-18 09:28pm

Durandal wrote:Only if you're totally unfamiliar with the special theory of relativity.

Um.. what? My point hinged on the special theory being true. Ie, you can keep accelerating, but after a point, you get vanishingly close to c, not actually at c, and the difference is effectively zero.. o_O wtf are you talking about durandal?

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-18 09:31pm

You, if I'm not mistaken. Not everyone believes in your miraculous turnaround

err ok then

. I don't know who rick is and I don't know who you are so thats the end of that crap. And believe whatever crap you like chico. I'm not making some sort of miraculous turnaround, i'm on probation and so far no one has insulted me like on my first few posts and I have done nothing wrong, simple as that. If you want to shit stir then go some place else, we are trying to have a discussion here. I was talking to Lead but I also consider the discussion closed.

You're mistaken. The Enterprise-B did have its warp drive and used it for the 3 LY transit to intercept the Ribbon.

Evidently, the warp drive systems were installed the previous Tuesday. It was everything else that was on back-order for next Tuesday.

hmmm are you sure patrick? Ok I will accept this for now since i'm not 100% certain. I know everything else was to be installed next tues, but I will fire up Generations just to check. I was certain that I heard someting...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-07-18 09:41pm

Allbran, I believe it would behoove you to not elevate yourself so much as you're doing, as well as not treating other members as if they were just random dolts trying to start shit with you or get in your way, especially moderators.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-07-18 10:09pm

kojikun wrote:
Durandal wrote:Only if you're totally unfamiliar with the special theory of relativity.
Um.. what? My point hinged on the special theory being true. Ie, you can keep accelerating, but after a point, you get vanishingly close to c, not actually at c, and the difference is effectively zero.. o_O wtf are you talking about durandal?

Full impulse will be a constant acceleration, but as you get closer to c, more and more energy will be required to sustain that constant acceleration, as the ship's mass will increase. The ship will run out of fuel long before it gets anywhere near c. You're right if the ship has an infinite supply of fuel, but otherwise, no.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-18 10:24pm

But thats what I mean, dude. By 90PSL you've only doubled in mass. 90PSL is really rather close to 100. With enough fuel, you will get really close to c. Like it said its effectively c. No, it's not exactly c, and is still a few percentage points away from it, but for all intents and purposes, it might as well be. Thats all I'm saying.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-07-18 10:54pm

kojikun wrote:But thats what I mean, dude. By 90PSL you've only doubled in mass. 90PSL is really rather close to 100. With enough fuel, you will get really close to c. Like it said its effectively c. No, it's not exactly c, and is still a few percentage points away from it, but for all intents and purposes, it might as well be. Thats all I'm saying.

A difference of 10% is hardly "effectively zero." But things don't really start getting bad until about 0.95c. I misread your original comment and didn't see the "effectively."

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-19 12:41am

It's ok, I'm used to people missing all sorts of extremely important words in my posts.

Over the short distances that impulse is used, 10PSL really doesn't make much of a difference. It's a difference of 0.1 the length of time it would take light to traverse the same distance, and while on large scales thats a lot, where impulse is use, its a barely noticable quantity. Then again, noones going to be going 0.9c when pulling into drydock

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2004-07-19 04:52pm

kojikun wrote:It's ok, I'm used to people missing all sorts of extremely important words in my posts.

Over the short distances that impulse is used, 10PSL really doesn't make much of a difference. It's a difference of 0.1 the length of time it would take light to traverse the same distance, and while on large scales thats a lot, where impulse is use, its a barely noticable quantity. Then again, noones going to be going 0.9c when pulling into drydock

At least, not their own drydock anyway.

"Victory is Life!" As the Jem'Hadar bug 'docks' with Utopia Planetia at 90PSL

Lenael · Post by **Lenael** » 2004-07-20 08:12am

Well, I don't really know how impulse engines are supposed to work, but I'd think that the Star Trek universe at least tries to follow the theory of relativity. So achieving c or exceeding it would be impossible there too.

I did read somewhere (ditl.org, I believe) that full impulse means .25c. Exceeding this speed would be possible, but they just don't want too great time dilation differencies. But you are saying that FI means a constant acceleration. Which is true?

Chris OFarrell wrote: Full impulse HAS been shown at times to have an acceleration curve sufficet to reach near C velocities.

Any acceleration is sufficient to reach any velocity below c. If you have the required time and fuel, that is.

kojikun wrote:but after a point, you get vanishingly close to c, not actually at c, and the difference is effectively zero

kojikun wrote:90PSL is really rather close to 100 /// 10PSL really doesn't make much of a difference. It's a difference of 0.1 the length of time it would take light to traverse the same distance

Not to the traveller. The difference in lenght of time between travellers going .9c and c is infinite. The one going at c has a infinitely large velocity from his own point of view so he/she would arrive at any location instantly (in zero seconds). Also for a traveller going at .9c it would take 10 times as much time to travel certain distance compared to one going at .999c.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-07-20 11:09am

Not to the traveller. The difference in lenght of time between travellers going .9c and c is infinite. The one going at c has a infinitely large velocity from his own point of view so he/she would arrive at any location instantly (in zero seconds). Also for a traveller going at .9c it would take 10 times as much time to travel certain distance compared to one going at .999c.

Er, excuse me Mr. Dipshit you seem to have confused the speed of light and infinite speed with one another. Even with the time dilation effects you dont get anything like what you're spouting.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2004-07-20 11:57am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Not to the traveller. The difference in lenght of time between travellers going .9c and c is infinite. The one going at c has a infinitely large velocity from his own point of view so he/she would arrive at any location instantly (in zero seconds). Also for a traveller going at .9c it would take 10 times as much time to travel certain distance compared to one going at .999c.
Er, excuse me Mr. Dipshit you seem to have confused the speed of light and infinite speed with one another. Even with the time dilation effects you dont get anything like what you're spouting.

Photons (traveling at c) don't experience time, because gamma goes to infinity as velocity approaches c. He knows what he's talking about, because he's talking about the traveler, and not the observer. There's a huge difference between the two.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-07-20 12:08pm

Durandal wrote:
kojikun wrote:Full impulse, regardless of it's acceleration, will always ultimately get the ship up to a speed that is, effectively, c. given enough time.
Only if you're totally unfamiliar with the special theory of relativity.

No, he's right (i think). He said "effectively". If you let the Enterprise accelerate at full impulse for an infinite amount of time, it'd eventual reach .999 c...though all the crew would be dead from old age. Right?

EDIT: NM, I read your post. Well, there's always the possibility that the Enterprise will use their quantum enhanced *enter technobabble here* subspace *technobabble* to pull energy out of subspace, until they reach .999 c...(look at the self replicating mines, they should have run out of fuel before being able to self replicate a single copy).

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-07-20 01:52pm

consequences wrote:At least, not their own drydock anyway.
"Victory is Life!" As the Jem'Hadar bug 'docks' with Utopia Planetia at 90PSL

Worf: Today IS a good day to die!!! ::ship goes to full impulse::
Second: Erm.. Mr. Worf.. that's one of our stations..
Worf: ..

Lenael · Post by **Lenael** » 2004-07-20 06:35pm

Keevan_Colton wrote: Er, excuse me Mr. Dipshit you seem to have confused the speed of light and infinite speed with one another. Even with the time dilation effects you dont get anything like what you're spouting.

No need to get rude. Velocity is point of view dependant. Even from the traveller's point of view s/t never exceeds c, they just lessen in the same pace and when both are zero (at c) then distance and time become meaningless. The traveller could travel to other galaxies and experience no passing of time. That's pretty much a infinite velocity.

But, of course, it's not infinite from the point of view of observers who are going slower. Every observer would see it moving at c relative to them. Just like they see light move.

And, of course, it's not possible to achieve c, since it would take infinite time to accelerate to that velocity. Just like it takes infinite time to achieve infinite velocity.

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Full Impulse = c ?

Full Impulse = c ?

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