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In Nemesis, Picard strikes a Reman guard using his phaser rifle butt. He strikes the Reman twice, and the weapon breaks, apparently disabling it. It does not overload, or even create sparks after it broke, however the hand-grip and the butt of the weapon were completely severed from the barrel and the firing mechanism. I would not think that the force involved in Picard's blow was significantly greater than the force of falling from 4 meters, indicating that the phaser rifle would have difficulty surviving a fall from such a height. Even if the butt of the weapon was not as obviously broken as the one in Nemesis, it may also damage the generally more sensitive firing apparatus and design of the weapon. This would almost certainly throw the weapon out of alignment. Kira's statement about the low durability of SF weapons is beginning to gain merit from what is seen on the show and in the movies.

Master of Ossus wrote:In Nemesis, Picard strikes a Reman guard using his phaser rifle butt. He strikes the Reman twice, and the weapon breaks, apparently disabling it. It does not overload, or even create sparks after it broke, however the hand-grip and the butt of the weapon were completely severed from the barrel and the firing mechanism. I would not think that the force involved in Picard's blow was significantly greater than the force of falling from 4 meters, indicating that the phaser rifle would have difficulty surviving a fall from such a height. Even if the butt of the weapon was not as obviously broken as the one in Nemesis, it may also damage the generally more sensitive firing apparatus and design of the weapon. This would almost certainly throw the weapon out of alignment. Kira's statement about the low durability of SF weapons is beginning to gain merit from what is seen on the show and in the movies.

You mean like in FC and INS when Worf was using his like a baseball bat, swinging at drones and blowing them up, cracking Borg spines with it, security guards attempting to and not damaging their weapons.....

Its far more likely that the weapon was damaged at some point and Picards attack finaly snapped it off then that the weapon is only ever that durable given that the weapons have in similar situations never had the slightest problem...

Manufacturing flaw perhaps. It's a one off incident. However- is it the same as the one in First Contact and Insurrection? If it's a new model then ...

Chris O'Farrell wrote:
You mean like in FC and INS when Worf was using his like a baseball bat, swinging at drones and blowing them up, cracking Borg spines with it, security guards attempting to and not damaging their weapons.....

I was under the impression that they had designed a new phaser rifle model for Nemesis.

Its far more likely that the weapon was damaged at some point and Picards attack finaly snapped it off then that the weapon is only ever that durable given that the weapons have in similar situations never had the slightest problem...

When would the weapon have been damaged? We see Picard beam over. We see him use the phaser to blow the door open. We see him engage several Remans on the bridge, and then we see him attacked by a Reman, whom Picard clubs with the phaser. The phaser breaks. When did the weapon suffer damage that would have been remotely significant to such a demonstrable failure?

Chris O'Farrell wrote: Its far more likely that the weapon was damaged at some point and Picards attack finaly snapped it off then that the weapon is only ever that durable given that the weapons have in similar situations never had the slightest problem...

Oh, bullshit!

I KNOW WHAT I SAW.

Picard was holding the rifle normally for almost 10 minutes... No throwing
it around, and he cracks a guard in the head with it, and it splits in
fucking HALF.

MKSheppard wrote:

Chris O'Farrell wrote: Its far more likely that the weapon was damaged at some point and Picards attack finaly snapped it off then that the weapon is only ever that durable given that the weapons have in similar situations never had the slightest problem...

Oh, bullshit!

I KNOW WHAT I SAW.

Picard was holding the rifle normally for almost 10 minutes... No throwing
it around, and he cracks a guard in the head with it, and it splits in
fucking HALF.

Which clearly indicates a flawed rifle, not a flawed design.

Master of Ossus wrote:I was under the impression that they had designed a new phaser rifle model for Nemesis.

Incorrect. The rifle featured in Nemesis is the Type-3b rifle with a new flashlight attached which also features a holographic sighting system. The rifle itself is identical to the Type-3bs used in First Contact and Insurrection. Though a note, the Type-3a was also featured in First Contact and we saw the people randomly switching weapons (as in scene changes, different weapon). However the entire security team started with the Type-3b so its logical to assume a simple mistake in filming and that they were going after the borg with their most advanced rifle.

Alyeska wrote:Which clearly indicates a flawed rifle, not a flawed design.

So their manufacturing specifications are very poor, even if the design is not. This is surprising, since SF is generall said to be meticulous about its manufacturing specifications, but we now see that this is not the case. Apparently their industrial replicators maintain poor quality control standards.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Which clearly indicates a flawed rifle, not a flawed design.

So their manufacturing specifications are very poor, even if the design is not. This is surprising, since SF is generall said to be meticulous about its manufacturing specifications, but we now see that this is not the case. Apparently their industrial replicators maintain poor quality control standards.

You invariably have bad units produced over time. Quality control can not catch everything. Fact as we saw far higher damage taken in First Contact and Insurrection then in Nemesis. The fact that the rifles in the first two movies seemed undamaged while the Nemesis one does not would indicate that the rifle series itself is just fine, but that Picard was unlucky enough to have a rifle that slipped through quality control. It does happen regardless of the scifi universe.

Alyeska wrote: You invariably have bad units produced over time. Quality control can not catch everything. Fact as we saw far higher damage taken in First Contact and Insurrection then in Nemesis. The fact that the rifles in the first two movies seemed undamaged while the Nemesis one does not would indicate that the rifle series itself is just fine, but that Picard was unlucky enough to have a rifle that slipped through quality control. It does happen regardless of the scifi universe.

True, but it is interesting in that industrial replicators are generally said to operate on similar principles to the transporters. We have two possibilities: either the transporter has equally poor quality control, or the method used to replicate things in replicators differs more substantially from the operating mechanism of the transporter than we had previously believed.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Alyeska wrote: You invariably have bad units produced over time. Quality control can not catch everything. Fact as we saw far higher damage taken in First Contact and Insurrection then in Nemesis. The fact that the rifles in the first two movies seemed undamaged while the Nemesis one does not would indicate that the rifle series itself is just fine, but that Picard was unlucky enough to have a rifle that slipped through quality control. It does happen regardless of the scifi universe.

True, but it is interesting in that industrial replicators are generally said to operate on similar principles to the transporters. We have two possibilities: either the transporter has equally poor quality control, or the method used to replicate things in replicators differs more substantially from the operating mechanism of the transporter than we had previously believed.

Did the movie indicate that replicators can make rifles? I tend to think not because if they did, Voyager ought not have switched from one type of rifle to another part way through the series. The generally accepted reason why Voyager went from the Pulse Phaser rifle to the Type-3a and 3b rifles is because it had a stock of all of them before leaving. However if they could replicate them at will, there is no logical reason why Voyager suddenly changed. There is also the fact that throughout the Dominion War the Federation was employing mostly Type-3 rifles (TNG type) and the DS9 TM indicates that the Type-3a and 3b are just starting production runs so most installations and ships still have stocks of the Type-3 and that is what the ground forces were forced to use unless they were special operations.

So... I don't see any reason to think that the Type-3b that Picard used was created by a replicator.

Hmmm... Perhaps not. I just assumed that since the TR-116 could be crafted with a replicator, phaser rifles probably would be done the same way, also.

Master of Ossus wrote:Hmmm... Perhaps not. I just assumed that since the TR-116 could be crafted with a replicator, phaser rifles probably would be done the same way, also.

Its possible that the TR-116 is a "simple" item for a replicator to make because its primarly gas operated impact driven, not a large power device with complex prefire chambes and other such things.

Alyeska wrote: Which clearly indicates a flawed rifle, not a flawed design.

Tell that to the British Army and their SA-80

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote: Which clearly indicates a flawed rifle, not a flawed design.

Tell that to the British Army and their SA-80

I already have. Any UK soldier worth his beans absolutely hates the SA-80. Why do you think most British special operations groups refuse to use the SA-80?

Alyeska wrote: I already have. Any UK soldier worth his beans absolutely hates the SA-80. Why do you think most British special operations groups refuse to use the SA-80?

Then why does Picards rifle snap cleanly in half like the SA-80 would? Indicative of a piss poor design and manufacturing.

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote: I already have. Any UK soldier worth his beans absolutely hates the SA-80. Why do you think most British special operations groups refuse to use the SA-80?

Then why does Picards rifle snap cleanly in half like the SA-80 would? Indicative of a piss poor design and manufacturing.

Have you even bothered to read my earlier posts? This indicates a flawed rifle that got past quality control, NOT a flawed design. We have countless examples of this very same rifle taking substanial amounts of KE in the previous two movies without any noticable damage.

You can have a poorly made M-16 that breaks in half because quality control was bad. That doesn't make ALL M-16s piss poor.

Alyeska wrote: You can have a poorly made M-16 that breaks in half because quality control was bad. That doesn't make ALL M-16s piss poor.

This was a Standard production rifle....it fired literaly dozens of shots, blew
a airlock door down, and yet breaks from the minor stress of smacking someone over the head?

Jesus christ, it can control the energy needed to blow a armored
door open, yet it can't take a simple smack?

MKSheppard wrote:

Alyeska wrote: You can have a poorly made M-16 that breaks in half because quality control was bad. That doesn't make ALL M-16s piss poor.

This was a Standard production rifle....it fired literaly dozens of shots, blew
a airlock door down, and yet breaks from the minor stress of smacking someone over the head?

Jesus christ, it can control the energy needed to blow a armored
door open, yet it can't take a simple smack?

There is a difference between having the ability to conduct thermal or energy pulses compared to taking KE type energy shock. The US spaceshuttles have a very heat resistant tiling that can be broken by smashing it with a hammer. The barrels of most modern guns are quite good at taking abuse, but they can melt from their own weapons fire.

Master of Ossus wrote:Hmmm... Perhaps not. I just assumed that since the TR-116 could be crafted with a replicator, phaser rifles probably would be done the same way, also.

In TNG, Romulans were using replicators to make fake (but fully functional) Federation phaser rifles in order to frame the Feds for trying to start a war by supplying the combatants with weaponry. You can use replicators to make phaser rifles.

AdmiralKanos wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Hmmm... Perhaps not. I just assumed that since the TR-116 could be crafted with a replicator, phaser rifles probably would be done the same way, also.

In TNG, Romulans were using replicators to make fake (but fully functional) Federation phaser rifles in order to frame the Feds for trying to start a war by supplying the combatants with weaponry. You can use replicators to make phaser rifles.

The Romulans might have used replicators because they had no other alternative. As in they do not have dedicated production lines with the proper tools to create phaser rifles. It could be that replicating such a weapon is far more resource intensive then just building it in a mass producing weapons plant. This would more or less explain why the Type-3 rifles were still heavily in use durring the Dominion war even with the Type-3a and Type-3b rifles being in existance.

Alyeska wrote:The Romulans might have used replicators because they had no other alternative. As in they do not have dedicated production lines with the proper tools to create phaser rifles. It could be that replicating such a weapon is far more resource intensive then just building it in a mass producing weapons plant. This would more or less explain why the Type-3 rifles were still heavily in use durring the Dominion war even with the Type-3a and Type-3b rifles being in existance.

Fair enough; it might require materials which are difficult to use in a replicator. That's a good point about the persistent use of older models.

AdmiralKanos wrote:

Alyeska wrote:The Romulans might have used replicators because they had no other alternative. As in they do not have dedicated production lines with the proper tools to create phaser rifles. It could be that replicating such a weapon is far more resource intensive then just building it in a mass producing weapons plant. This would more or less explain why the Type-3 rifles were still heavily in use durring the Dominion war even with the Type-3a and Type-3b rifles being in existance.

Fair enough; it might require materials which are difficult to use in a replicator. That's a good point about the persistent use of older models.

Believe me, I was quite iritated more then once to see that the FC rifles had not made it on to DS9. Then they had an episode with them, but abandoned them after that! To top that off, Voyager suddenly switched over to the new rifles. That REALLY iritated me. So I kinda remember this stuff very well.