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Geordi explains in the movie how a fleet of starships had been re-routed to meet the Enterprise-E. It was also explained that there would be safety for Picard [and his ship] in numbers. The Romulan Neutral Zone should, in the wake of the Borg's defeat and the destruction of the Dominion and Cardassians as a military threat to the UFP, be the most well-patrolled and protected area in all of the UFP. We see only seven ships, in a task force that was meant to protect the UFP. I think that I read the astrometrics section say "Battle Group" as a lump-term for the ships assembling to protect the Enterprise. It is inconceivable why the UFP, after having so many ships in the Dominion War, would be able to mass so few starships in preparation to defend Earth.

The bulk of the fleet is either spread out, assigned to other critical duties, or massing for defending Earth at Earth, where they can concentrate their sensors.

Uraniun235 wrote:The bulk of the fleet is either spread out, assigned to other critical duties, or massing for defending Earth at Earth, where they can concentrate their sensors.

Their sensors are ineffective. "[The Scimitar] can pass within ten feet of every ship in Star Fleet, and we'd never know." Their only hope was that Shinzon would pursue Picard, first, and then move to Earth. Moreover, the FLEET was diverting to help the Enterprise, not an element of the fleet, or a group of ships. THE FLEET was moving to help the E-E. Besides, no other ships were mentioned as moving to protect Earth.

Finally, had there been a fleet at Earth with any reasonable chance of protecting it, Picard would not have immediately considered his crew and his ship to be expendable. Their only chance was to defeat Shinzon when he came for Picard.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:The bulk of the fleet is either spread out, assigned to other critical duties, or massing for defending Earth at Earth, where they can concentrate their sensors.

Their sensors are ineffective. "[The Scimitar] can pass within ten feet of every ship in Star Fleet, and we'd never know." Their only hope was that Shinzon would pursue Picard, first, and then move to Earth. Moreover, the FLEET was diverting to help the Enterprise, not an element of the fleet, or a group of ships. THE FLEET was moving to help the E-E. Besides, no other ships were mentioned as moving to protect Earth.

Finally, had there been a fleet at Earth with any reasonable chance of protecting it, Picard would not have immediately considered his crew and his ship to be expendable. Their only chance was to defeat Shinzon when he came for Picard.

First off, you're a bloody fool if you think every damn starship in the Federation was moving towards the Neutral Zone at that point.

Also, you're suggesting that the resources of one starship with a limited amount of expertise can definitively determine that thousands of starships, as well as space stations and other defenses would be totally ineffective in finding the Scimitar. Advanced as the E-E is, it's still only one ship. I was under the impression that one criticism of ST was the portrayal of mere starship engineers as being able to know and do everything... guess I was wrong.

The bulk of Starfleet's forces is still at other places. I was referring to "the entire starfleet", not just "the fleet seen in the map room".

Master of Ossus wrote:It is inconceivable why the UFP, after having so many ships in the Dominion War, would be able to mass so few starships in preparation to defend Earth.

It's common knowledge that DS9 is regarded by B&B as the bastard stepchild of the Trek franchise. If Bozo and Binhead are going to play with fleet numbers like this it's probably just evidence that they regard DS9 as not only a bastard stepchild but also non-canon. Idiots.

Uraniun235 wrote: First off, you're a bloody fool if you think every damn starship in the Federation was moving towards the Neutral Zone at that point.

Oh, I'm sorry. The protection of Earth is obviously secondary to the missions of exploration that are taking place all the time around the UFP.

Also, you're suggesting that the resources of one starship with a limited amount of expertise can definitively determine that thousands of starships, as well as space stations and other defenses would be totally ineffective in finding the Scimitar. Advanced as the E-E is, it's still only one ship. I was under the impression that one criticism of ST was the portrayal of mere starship engineers as being able to know and do everything... guess I was wrong.

The E-E is the most advanced ship in the fleet. If its sensors can't detect a ship, what makes you think something else is able to? Moreover, SF obviously didn't believe that the rest of the fleet could stop the Scimitar. They moved their ships to protect the E-E, and even after hearing from SF command Picard thought that their only hope was if Shinzon came after him on the Enterprise.

The bulk of Starfleet's forces is still at other places. I was referring to "the entire starfleet", not just "the fleet seen in the map room".

Clearly, but where would they be? WHY would they be abandoning Earth like that? Why shouldn't they be moving towards the Neutral Zone, even if they had written off Earth? Shouldn't they be preparing for a war? Moreover, the ships present to protect the Enterprise are representative of the numbers that SF can bring to bear against a specific enemy at any time, since the Romulans would doubtless be the most dangerous enemy to the UFP remaining. Additionally, before the E-E was dispatched to Romulus, the fleet should have been moving to the Neutral Zone. Following a coup that the UFP knew NOTHING about, they should have been anticipating potential trouble along the Romulan border. We learn that the E-E sits around Romulus for about two days. In that time, only seven ships plus the Enterprise had moved to the Neutral Zone. That is spectacularly stupid, even if it does not demonstrate the UFP's overall fleet strength for some inexplicable reason.

That was all the fleet they could muster in, what, 40 min? They'd need at least a few hours to drum up a decent sized fleet.

Master of Ossus wrote:The E-E is the most advanced ship in the fleet. If its sensors can't detect a ship, what makes you think something else is able to? Moreover, SF obviously didn't believe that the rest of the fleet could stop the Scimitar. They moved their ships to protect the E-E, and even after hearing from SF command Picard thought that their only hope was if Shinzon came after him on the Enterprise.

Just a few bits here:
1) The Prometheus is the most advanced ship, not the E-E
2) The E-E is a warship. Its sensors, while advanced, would be optomized towards combat: Aquiring and maintaining targeting locks and what not. It's sensors would not provide extraneous and distracting information. However, a dedicated science ship would have strong sensors with a wide ability to them. It may be able to pick up something that a warships sensors could not, similar to how a special science array was used to let the torp pierce the cloak in ST:6. So other ships may be able to do it even if the E-E can't

Master of Ossus wrote:Geordi explains in the movie how a fleet of starships had been re-routed to meet the Enterprise-E. It was also explained that there would be safety for Picard [and his ship] in numbers. The Romulan Neutral Zone should, in the wake of the Borg's defeat and the destruction of the Dominion and Cardassians as a military threat to the UFP, be the most well-patrolled and protected area in all of the UFP. We see only seven ships, in a task force that was meant to protect the UFP. I think that I read the astrometrics section say "Battle Group" as a lump-term for the ships assembling to protect the Enterprise. It is inconceivable why the UFP, after having so many ships in the Dominion War, would be able to mass so few starships in preparation to defend Earth.

Considering this fleet was named Task Force Alpha I move that this be removed from the record.

Starfleet most likely felt that diverting the whole fleet against one ship was a little too much.

Forgot to add a to the end of my post

Master of Ossus wrote:Geordi explains in the movie how a fleet of starships had been re-routed to meet the Enterprise-E. It was also explained that there would be safety for Picard [and his ship] in numbers. The Romulan Neutral Zone should, in the wake of the Borg's defeat and the destruction of the Dominion and Cardassians as a military threat to the UFP, be the most well-patrolled and protected area in all of the UFP. We see only seven ships, in a task force that was meant to protect the UFP. I think that I read the astrometrics section say "Battle Group" as a lump-term for the ships assembling to protect the Enterprise. It is inconceivable why the UFP, after having so many ships in the Dominion War, would be able to mass so few starships in preparation to defend Earth.

1. The Neutral Zone isn't exactly close to Earth. Its one of the boarders of the UFP. In some early TNG episodes when they appeared to have far slower FTL comms, it was stated at times that because they were so far away messages would take many hours to get from them to Earth. In FC, in the time it took for the E-E to get from the Neutral Zone to Sol at Maximum warp, the Borg Cube got from the Typhon sector to Sol (and IIRC the Typhon Rift was in the Typhon sector and that was said to also be on the very edge of UFP space in TNG). Its not like Earth was in INSTANT danger and those ships were the last line of defence before Earth. The E-E was simply trying to lure the warbird into a place where a group of Starships could take it on as a team with a much better chance of success. It takes time to get more ships to the boarder. In all probability, the Battlegroup was simply the roving boarder patrol Starfleet had on duty on the boarder at that time. You don't send your entire fleet out over thousands of cubic light years of space to hunt down a ship that can't BE found. I'm sure at Earth they had a sizable number of ships if needed. In Endgame, they scrambled 18 ships in about 2 minuites to a point just under a light year from Earth with 9 more on the way to the party. And most were big modern capital ships as well. Thats probably a base you can use for Earths current defence flotila.

2. From what I understand in DS9, the tension between the UFP and Romulan Star Empire was actualy DECREASING during and after the Dominion war, not going up. The UFP was actauly making progress in breaking the ice that had existed for some time. Gratned, section 31 was convinced they may well pose a threat in the future (hence them taking over the head of their intelegence organisation), but nothing I have seen indicates their realations to be the boiling point you are describing....

Chris O'Farrell wrote: 1. The Neutral Zone isn't exactly close to Earth. Its one of the boarders of the UFP. In some early TNG episodes when they appeared to have far slower FTL comms, it was stated at times that because they were so far away messages would take many hours to get from them to Earth. In FC, in the time it took for the E-E to get from the Neutral Zone to Sol at Maximum warp, the Borg Cube got from the Typhon sector to Sol (and IIRC the Typhon Rift was in the Typhon sector and that was said to also be on the very edge of UFP space in TNG). Its not like Earth was in INSTANT danger and those ships were the last line of defence before Earth. The E-E was simply trying to lure the warbird into a place where a group of Starships could take it on as a team with a much better chance of success. It takes time to get more ships to the boarder. In all probability, the Battlegroup was simply the roving boarder patrol Starfleet had on duty on the boarder at that time. You don't send your entire fleet out over thousands of cubic light years of space to hunt down a ship that can't BE found. I'm sure at Earth they had a sizable number of ships if needed. In Endgame, they scrambled 18 ships in about 2 minuites to a point just under a light year from Earth with 9 more on the way to the party. And most were big modern capital ships as well. Thats probably a base you can use for Earths current defence flotila.

2. From what I understand in DS9, the tension between the UFP and Romulan Star Empire was actualy DECREASING during and after the Dominion war, not going up. The UFP was actauly making progress in breaking the ice that had existed for some time. Gratned, section 31 was convinced they may well pose a threat in the future (hence them taking over the head of their intelegence organisation), but nothing I have seen indicates their realations to be the boiling point you are describing....

Nevertheless, the Neutral Zone is the only even remotely hostile border remaining to the UFP that we know about. It is also the only border that presents a significant military threat to the UFP, other than the friendly Klingon border. It should be well protected, especially after the destruction of the Borg as a military force and the removal of the Cardassian and Dominion threat.

What's more important, you guys are talking about the time that it took them to assemble their ships. In such a circumstance as a mysterious coup in a neighboring and very powerful state, it should be standard operating procedure to set up shop there with as many ships as possible. We hear the Enterprise and the crew talking about how they had been sitting in Romulan orbit for nearly 20 hours. All that time, SF should have been assembling vessels along the Neutral Zone. We then hear that the Enterprise remains in orbit for a full day (Picard and Shinzon eat dinner), and that Picard does not trust him. During that time, MORE SF ships should have been moving to the area. In that time they mustered a grand total of 8 ships, WITH the Enterprise-E. That is an inexcusable lack of judgement on the part of SF command (particularly since Picard, at this point, knew about Shinzon's Thalaron radiation, and should have communicated as such to SF if he could have. If he could not communicate, SF should have suspected something was up, and been moving ships to the border, anyway), or it demonstrates a spectacularly low level of military planning, or it demonstrates a spectacularly low number of starships in SF. Any of these is an acceptable interpretation, or any combination of these is acceptable in obviously reduced magnitudes. To say that they did not have time, however, is something else entirely.

Regardless of what you say, we already know that Federation 'fleets' can range from 5 ships to thousands. Watch SoA or WYLB to see true Federation fleets.

In times of war, the Federation can amass fleets of a good size. Besides, Death Squadron in ESB isn't exactly huge ...

BTW, why would Starfleet waste resources on the Romulan boarder when they control the Romulan Empire to some extent? The fact that the leader of the Tal-Shiar works for Starfleet means that there will be at least prior warning to any sneak attack on the Federation: more than enough time to assemble a SoA style fleet to defend against the Romulans (the SoA fleet took a week to assemble if I recall correctly, 600 or so ships).

ALI_G wrote:Regardless of what you say, we already know that Federation 'fleets' can range from 5 ships to thousands. Watch SoA or WYLB to see true Federation fleets.

Please present a screenshot of "thousands" of ships in SoA or WYLB. I never see more than a few dozen onscreen at once.

In times of war, the Federation can amass fleets of a good size. Besides, Death Squadron in ESB isn't exactly huge ...

Actually, by volume and even before the inclusion of its fighters, it handily exceeds the combined sizes of every Trek fleet ever seen from all of the combined sides in the Dominion war.

Death Squadron isn't large at all compared to the total size of the Imperial Starfleet.

Uraniun235 wrote:Death Squadron isn't large at all compared to the total size of the Imperial Starfleet.

Exactly, much like the Federation boarder patrol was not as large as the total size of the Federation fleet.

Please present a screenshot of "thousands" of ships in SoA or WYLB. I never see more than a few dozen onscreen at once.

Ah the ubiquitous 'on screen over dialogue' arguement all over again ... in SoA the fleet is stated to be half the size of the Dominions' 1254 ships (as I stated, around 600) whilst in WYLB the Federation fleet would have to be of sufficent size (combined with the Klingon, Romulans and later Cardassians) to overcome an enemy that several episodes earlier numbered at 30,000 by a leading Romulan General (and confirmed by General Martok). Although I conceed that the fleets never look more than 50 ships in volume, we should assume that the fleets never move in one giant block. A real life example would be the battle of Jutland, where the Battlecruiser and Battleship formations operated largely independant from each other, and in ROTJ where the Rebel fleet when entering Hyperspace is no more than a dozen ships, yet is clearly larger than that at the death star battle.

Actually, by volume and even before the inclusion of its fighters, it handily exceeds the combined sizes of every Trek fleet ever seen from all of the combined sides in the Dominion war.

That's probably true, but if we compare the relative size of the organisations to their fleets in tonnage then they would be fairly relative.

Given the energy density of something as powerful as an ISD, no, the tonnage would not equalize things.

ALI_G wrote:BTW, why would Starfleet waste resources on the Romulan boarder when they control the Romulan Empire to some extent? The fact that the leader of the Tal-Shiar works for Starfleet means that there will be at least prior warning to any sneak attack on the Federation: more than enough time to assemble a SoA style fleet to defend against the Romulans (the SoA fleet took a week to assemble if I recall correctly, 600 or so ships).

Hmmm... let me see... because the Federation agent only controls a tiny portion of the Romulan Empire, and to base your sole defense on the loyalty of a single person is ludicrous? Because all of the military ships designed to fight the Dominion and the Borg ought to be sent to do something? Because, even if they are scrapped, there should still be officers and such who are qualified for scouting the Neutral Zone? Besides, we saw in ST:FC that Star Fleet sent its most powerful warship (the E-E) to patrol the Neutral Zone during a Borg invasion. That does not demonstrate a great deal of trust between the two sides. Even in Nemesis itself it is clear that the UFP and Romulan Empires are not on the best of terms, even after the Dominion War saw them fighting on the same side.

ALI_G wrote:Regardless of what you say, we already know that Federation 'fleets' can range from 5 ships to thousands. Watch SoA or WYLB to see true Federation fleets.

In times of war, the Federation can amass fleets of a good size. Besides, Death Squadron in ESB isn't exactly huge ...

And in BoBW the UFP managed only forty ships to defend Earth. This is consistent with what we have seen from SF. And this is clearly a time of war. They managed only eight ships in Nemesis.

SirNitram wrote:Given the energy density of something as powerful as an ISD, no, the tonnage would not equalize things.

I don't think anyone here is going to say that Death Fleet would have to break a sweat against the Federation fleet, but the relative sizes and ages of the Empires means that such a contest should be as one sided as the outcome would actually be.

ALI_G wrote:Regardless of what you say, we already know that Federation 'fleets' can range from 5 ships to thousands. Watch SoA or WYLB to see true Federation fleets.

You act as though I am deliberately altering what I saw in the movie to attempt to minimize the scale of Star Trek. Please explain to me why YOU think there were only 7 ships waiting for the E-E.

In times of war, the Federation can amass fleets of a good size. Besides, Death Squadron in ESB isn't exactly huge ...

Red herring. I never talked about the Empire in this thread. In any case, the grand fleets assembled during times of war have been pathetically small compared to Death SQUADRON, which consisted of an Executor class ship, five ISD's, and according to the novelization, twenty smaller capital ships. With the fighters (the way that SF counts its ships) that is more SHIPS than the UFP even claimed to have in "Sacrifice of Angels." And Death Squadron is a SQUADRON. It is not a fleet. The group of ships in Nemesis was referred to by several characters (including Data) as being a fleet. According to the astrometrics lab, it was classified officially as a Federation Battle Group. A battle group is larger than a squadron.

ALI_G wrote:

Uraniun235 wrote:Death Squadron isn't large at all compared to the total size of the Imperial Starfleet.

Exactly, much like the Federation boarder patrol was not as large as the total size of the Federation fleet.

Dissimilar circumstances. The fleet guarding Earth should have been proportionately much larger than a fleet dispatched to hunt down terrorists. Even in the US, today, there are vastly more troops in the US than fighting in Afghanistan and the Middle East, although they have little hope of stopping further terrorist actions against American soil. Moreover, this was not a border patrol, this was a fleet designed to save Earth.

Please present a screenshot of "thousands" of ships in SoA or WYLB. I never see more than a few dozen onscreen at once.

Ah the ubiquitous 'on screen over dialogue' arguement all over again ... in SoA the fleet is stated to be half the size of the Dominions' 1254 ships (as I stated, around 600) whilst in WYLB the Federation fleet would have to be of sufficent size (combined with the Klingon, Romulans and later Cardassians) to overcome an enemy that several episodes earlier numbered at 30,000 by a leading Romulan General (and confirmed by General Martok). Although I conceed that the fleets never look more than 50 ships in volume, we should assume that the fleets never move in one giant block. A real life example would be the battle of Jutland, where the Battlecruiser and Battleship formations operated largely independant from each other, and in ROTJ where the Rebel fleet when entering Hyperspace is no more than a dozen ships, yet is clearly larger than that at the death star battle.

Why should we assume that? The way that the UFP and its allies count starships, fighters are included. By that measurement, the two sides at Endor had more ships than the Klingon Empire and the UFP combined. Moreover, the UFP did not need nearly that many ships because they did not rely on as many fighters as the Dominion did. Their ships were more powerful than their enemies, so in order to defeat their enemies they shoudl not have needed that many ships. Besides, you must justify your 30,000 number with what we see in BoBW, Nemesis, "The Defector," etc.

Actually, by volume and even before the inclusion of its fighters, it handily exceeds the combined sizes of every Trek fleet ever seen from all of the combined sides in the Dominion war.

That's probably true, but if we compare the relative size of the organisations to their fleets in tonnage then they would be fairly relative.

Hello unsubstantiated claim. Do you realize that Ali_G totally abused you in making this point?

ALI_G wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Given the energy density of something as powerful as an ISD, no, the tonnage would not equalize things.

I don't think anyone here is going to say that Death Fleet would have to break a sweat against the Federation fleet, but the relative sizes and ages of the Empires means that such a contest should be as one sided as the outcome would actually be.

Allow me to put it in smaller words. Because energy has mass, and due to the amount of energy, both at work and in potentia, in an ISD, it will STILL weigh more.

Master of Ossus wrote: You act as though I am deliberately altering what I saw in the movie to attempt to minimize the scale of Star Trek. Please explain to me why YOU think there were only 7 ships waiting for the E-E.

I believe thatBattle Group Alpha was assigned to provide assistance to the Enterprise if Shinzon came after Picard instead of going directly for Earth.

In times of war, the Federation can amass fleets of a good size. Besides, Death Squadron in ESB isn't exactly huge ...

Red herring. I never talked about the Empire in this thread. In any case, the grand fleets assembled during times of war have been pathetically small compared to Death SQUADRON, which consisted of an Executor class ship, five ISD's, and according to the novelization, twenty smaller capital ships. With the fighters (the way that SF counts its ships) that is more SHIPS than the UFP even claimed to have in "Sacrifice of Angels." And Death Squadron is a SQUADRON. It is not a fleet. The group of ships in Nemesis was referred to by several characters (including Data) as being a fleet. According to the astrometrics lab, it was classified officially as a Federation Battle Group. A battle group is larger than a squadron.[/quote]

Though in the film the only support craft we saw were various shuttles and fighters.....but it's irrelevant to the discussion.