Has the UFP learned the hard-way?

[FaxModem1]

Think about it, in early TNG, they only had 39 vessels to fight in the borg, now in DS9, the have marines(sorta), a huge fleet(by ST standards), more of the economy focused on Starfleet ship building. Better weapons for ground combat(for the ST universe).

So, the Dominion war and the Borg invasions were actually things that helped the Federation learn to have a good military.

Am I wrong in this regard?

[Master of Ossus]

No. In BoBW, the UFP was clearly unprepared for an enemy attack. They, apparently, immediately went into a large-scale military research and development effort, combined with a rapid re-armament campaign. This was responsible in no small part for the massive numbers of ships reported during the Dominion War.

[FaxModem1]

ahh, so the Dominion War didn't help them at all? What about the Defiant? and the fact that the Klingon Empire is in shambles.

[FaxModem1]

nevermind, the Klingon Empire's losses don't have to do with the Feds learning curve.

But, didn't the war make them realize that they always need to be on their toes.

EX. "Endgame", 18 ships in 2 minutes, with 9 on the way in the Sol system.

[Master of Ossus]

ahh, so the Dominion War didn't help them at all? What about the Defiant? and the fact that the Klingon Empire is in shambles.

Frankly, they were already at pretty full production when the Dominion War began. They had already been building up for the Borg threat. The Dominion War would have forced them to change things around a bit, to compensate for the inability of SF ships to shield themselves against Jem'Hadar weapons, and it did force them to commit their forces, but if anything it dramatically and permanently reduced their number of ships, and damaged their industrial capacity.

The damaged Klingon and Romulan Empires would actually encourage SF NOT to use its resources to build up its military strength. Only the Borg remained as an undamaged threat, militarily, following the war with the Dominion, Breen, and Cardassians.

[paladin]

ahh, so the Dominion War didn't help them at all? What about the Defiant? and the fact that the Klingon Empire is in shambles.

I thought the Klingon Empire was more stable with Mortok as Chancellor. I don't remember any mention of internal problems other then the usual, this house hating that house.

[Master of Ossus]

nevermind, the Klingon Empire's losses don't have to do with the Feds learning curve.

But, didn't the war make them realize that they always need to be on their toes.

EX. "Endgame", 18 ships in 2 minutes, with 9 on the way in the Sol system.

In "Nemesis" (spoiler ahead)















they managed just seven ships in two days. This demonstrates that with the removal of the Borg threat, SF reverted to its old and pacifistic ways. If they learned anything, they learned it temporarily and rapidly forgot it.

[Jason von Evil]

You could tell the Feddies were desperate during BoBWs, considering they were even contemplating asking the Rommies for help. But yeah, as a result of the Borg attack, they launched a massive military build up, creating the Defiant, Akira and other warship classes.

[Zoink]

There's a site dedicated to analyzing the wreckage from BoBw (forget the place, remember seeing it posted way back at spacebattles.com) ... they have a nice picture of what ships they think were at Wolf 359.

It seemed to suggest that the fleet at Wolf 359 was a rag-tag collection of ships, made from what could reach earth in time. It even had a Constellation class... probably some old training ship, which might suggest that they were rather desperate.

[FaxModem1]

So, has the Federation relaxed, or is it still a Starfleet pumping machine?

If it is, One despot could decide to conquer the AQ with the way things are going with everybody else(if he conquered the Federation and declared martial law, kinda like B5)

[Master of Ossus]

So, has the Federation relaxed, or is it still a Starfleet pumping machine?

If it is, One despot could decide to conquer the AQ with the way things are going with everybody else(if he conquered the Federation and declared martial law, kinda like B5)

It's relaxed big time since DS9 and ST:FC.

[FaxModem1]

How do we know that? It was only A battle group, there could dozens or a hundred of those..

[Alyeska]

nevermind, the Klingon Empire's losses don't have to do with the Feds learning curve.

But, didn't the war make them realize that they always need to be on their toes.

EX. "Endgame", 18 ships in 2 minutes, with 9 on the way in the Sol system.

In "Nemesis" (spoiler ahead)















they managed just seven ships in two days. This demonstrates that with the removal of the Borg threat, SF reverted to its old and pacifistic ways. If they learned anything, they learned it temporarily and rapidly forgot it.

All that says is that this part of the Federation doesn't have as many ships. Regardless they did have at least one Galaxy class ship in that group.

[Jason von Evil]

There's a site dedicated to analyzing the wreckage from BoBw (forget the place, remember seeing it posted way back at spacebattles.com) ... they have a nice picture of what ships they think were at Wolf 359.

It seemed to suggest that the fleet at Wolf 359 was a rag-tag collection of ships, made from what could reach earth in time. It even had a Constellation class... probably some old training ship, which might suggest that they were rather desperate.

Bah, the Feddies must've been desperate when they built that POS starship in the first place.

[Master of Ossus]

All that says is that this part of the Federation doesn't have as many ships. Regardless they did have at least one Galaxy class ship in that group.

So, the most hostile border of the UFP that is left has only eight ships within a two day radius of it? One of them is a Galaxy class ship, but that does not excuse the lack of build-up along the border.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: Its been pointed out already that SF probably had ships defending earth and the border is a big place, there could have been other ships along it and other ships protecting border worlds.

The UFP also has other borders to police (the minor powers still need watching) and we dont know the state of the Cardies after the war (or the dominion) those borders still need watching especially if the Romulans and Klingons kept parts of former Cardy space (I dont think this is likely but you never know).

Endgame took place 2 years after the end of the dominion war and they had alot of ships near earth then so the relaxed stance obviously hadnt taken place yet.

The Romulans are still a threat to the UFP (or so Sloane told us) and with the Klingons out of the picture the Feds have had their "side" weakened, to think that with the ally that has helped keep the Romulans at bay for decades out for the count the Feds will relax would be a very stupid move.

I also dont get why you think SF couldn't recoup the ships they lost in the war , the Feds had shipyards that were shutdown but during the war they started bringing them online again, those yards would have been left online until the fleet losses had been offset.

[Alyeska]

All that says is that this part of the Federation doesn't have as many ships. Regardless they did have at least one Galaxy class ship in that group.

So, the most hostile border of the UFP that is left has only eight ships within a two day radius of it? One of them is a Galaxy class ship, but that does not excuse the lack of build-up along the border.

The Romulans while a threat, are not quite so big a threat as you make them out to be. The Federation needs ships on the borders, but not THAT many. The head of the Romulan inteligene agency is in the Federations pocket. Anything planned against the Federation by the Romulans would be quickly spotted.

[Master of Ossus]

All that says is that this part of the Federation doesn't have as many ships. Regardless they did have at least one Galaxy class ship in that group.

So, the most hostile border of the UFP that is left has only eight ships within a two day radius of it? One of them is a Galaxy class ship, but that does not excuse the lack of build-up along the border.

The Romulans while a threat, are not quite so big a threat as you make them out to be. The Federation needs ships on the borders, but not THAT many. The head of the Romulan inteligene agency is in the Federations pocket. Anything planned against the Federation by the Romulans would be quickly spotted.

Except, of course, the coup that they were unable to detect, even though "The dilithium mines on Remus haven't met their quota for months," clearly in reference to the coup attempt going on there.

Additionally, you are gambling the safety of the entire UFP on the loyalties of a single individual, AND all of their other external threats were more or less removed.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: Its been pointed out already that SF probably had ships defending earth and the border is a big place, there could have been other ships along it and other ships protecting border worlds.

Okay, but for at least two days, and probably for several months, the UFP should have been readying their ships to move to the Romulan border.

The UFP also has other borders to police (the minor powers still need watching) and we dont know the state of the Cardies after the war (or the dominion) those borders still need watching especially if the Romulans and Klingons kept parts of former Cardy space (I dont think this is likely but you never know).

Hardly. Even if a minor power could launch a limited offensive into UFP territory, it would rapidly be repelled. It is clear that the Cardassians were crushed by the Dominion War, and that they had lost a large majority of their military forces to both sides during the war.

Endgame took place 2 years after the end of the dominion war and they had alot of ships near earth then so the relaxed stance obviously hadnt taken place yet.

What's your point? They relaxed after Endgame. That would actually make even more sense, because before Endgame the Borg were a threat. The events of Endgame helped destroy them, as well.

The Romulans are still a threat to the UFP (or so Sloane told us) and with the Klingons out of the picture the Feds have had their "side" weakened, to think that with the ally that has helped keep the Romulans at bay for decades out for the count the Feds will relax would be a very stupid move.

And they're willing to gamble with the safety of the entire Federation that the Romulans are not going to face a coup AND that, AFTER that coup, they can still talk things out?

I also dont get why you think SF couldn't recoup the ships they lost in the war , the Feds had shipyards that were shutdown but during the war they started bringing them online again, those yards would have been left online until the fleet losses had been offset.

I don't think they would. It's merely interesting that they would allow themselves to degrade to the point where their most militarized border has merely eight ships defending it during a time of war.

[Alyeska]

So, the most hostile border of the UFP that is left has only eight ships within a two day radius of it? One of them is a Galaxy class ship, but that does not excuse the lack of build-up along the border.

The Romulans while a threat, are not quite so big a threat as you make them out to be. The Federation needs ships on the borders, but not THAT many. The head of the Romulan inteligene agency is in the Federations pocket. Anything planned against the Federation by the Romulans would be quickly spotted.

Except, of course, the coup that they were unable to detect, even though "The dilithium mines on Remus haven't met their quota for months," clearly in reference to the coup attempt going on there.

Additionally, you are gambling the safety of the entire UFP on the loyalties of a single individual, AND all of their other external threats were more or less removed.

The coup and its changes are future effects. The Federation was protecting its border apropriately for its present and past information. I might as well point out that with the help of the Federation, the Romulans will be more helpful and thus their border defense was just fine.

Fact is, for the threat they calculated at the time with their agent in place, their border security was just fine. Any build up of Romulan assets would be imediately detected. For the Romulans to attack, they would need the Tal Shiar to conduct inteligence operations against the Federation. This would alert the Tal Shiar spy for the Federation, who just so happens to RUN the Tal Shiar. This in turn alerts the Federation, who takes apropriate measures to deal with the Romulans.

[Master of Ossus]

The coup and its changes are future effects. The Federation was protecting its border apropriately for its present and past information.

LMAO! What would happen if someone launched a coup d'etat in Iraq tomorrow? Do you think that the United States would pull all of its forces out of the Gulf, leaving only a token defense, without any information whatsoever on the new ruler? When you have a potential coup in a neighboring power you MUST respond by increasing border security, especially if you have little information on what is going on. In fact, it is almost more worrying that you DON'T know anything about the new guy.

I might as well point out that with the help of the Federation, the Romulans will be more helpful and thus their border defense was just fine.

What? I'm not sure I'm following this part.

Fact is, for the threat they calculated at the time with their agent in place, their border security was just fine.

So, you have the same security measures in place for an empire that is nominally an ally with you, and has gone to war with you in the past, as you do for that same group with a government about which you know nothing?

Any build up of Romulan assets would be imediately detected.

Is that what we saw in Nemesis?

For the Romulans to attack, they would need the Tal Shiar to conduct inteligence operations against the Federation. This would alert the Tal Shiar spy for the Federation, who just so happens to RUN the Tal Shiar. This in turn alerts the Federation, who takes apropriate measures to deal with the Romulans.

Okay, but why didn't SF know that a coup was in process before it happened? Moreover, why did the Tal Shiar not need to spy on the UFP prior to the attack? Shinzon has been planning this coup for months. He needed to find and modify B-4. He needed to construct the Scimitar. It is clear he's been working with some elements of the Romulan military for some time. We are told that it took him several months to do so by the Romulan senate. The Tal Shiar told SF nothing about him, other than his name, and SF did not have a file on this guy. How can this not mandate a military build-up on the part of the UFP?

[Alyeska]

Actually... You just brought up something VERY interesting. Scimitar, months you say? Not quite the multi year long building scheduels that some people love to trumpet for Trek.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually... You just brought up something VERY interesting. Scimitar, months you say? Not quite the multi year long building scheduels that some people love to trumpet for Trek.

No. It's obviously vastly more advanced than the Romulan designs of the time, as well as being built quickly.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: You dont know what assets the Feds had on the border - if they had sent everything they had to help Picard Shizon could have just gone around them (knowing he couldnt win) and head straight for earth, not only that but the Federation had to be prepared for the Romulans attacking conventionally (as was the plan before Shinzon began to lose it) so sending everything you have and leaving you nearby colonies and the entire border wide open for the regular Romulan Navy to have a field day with.
Sf sent enough ships for the job (I think 8 ships could have handled him), sending overkill would have left them open to attack elsewhere.


Alyeska: Isn't the trek ships take years to build idea already been put to rest? a bunch of Rebels with no shipyard (and no SF experience or probably ship building experience) built the Defiant in just a few months, while the Defiant is small it shows how easy it is to build fed ships.
This is why I have always takken Shelbys 40 ships within a year quote to mean that the fleet would be back on course within a year (40 additional ships to those already planned, so keeping fleet building on schedule without a hitch).

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: You dont know what assets the Feds had on the border - if they had sent everything they had to help Picard Shizon could have just gone around them (knowing he couldnt win) and head straight for earth, not only that but the Federation had to be prepared for the Romulans attacking conventionally (as was the plan before Shinzon began to lose it) so sending everything you have and leaving you nearby colonies and the entire border wide open for the regular Romulan Navy to have a field day with.
Sf sent enough ships for the job (I think 8 ships could have handled him), sending overkill would have left them open to attack elsewhere.

SF should have anticipated additional ships coming with Shinzon, and sent more ships in response. Moreover, we saw that Picard was expecting Shinzon to bring along more ships than he did, when he commented that the newly arrived Valdore class ships were probably Skippy's. SF's eight ships MIGHT have been enough to stop the Scimitar conventionally, but it also would have handicapped them by limiting the directions in which their ships could have fired. More importantly, eight ships would not have been enough to stop Skippy if he had taken a couple of D'Derix class ships with him during his attack. The fact that Shinzon was an idiot does not excuse SF's stupidity.