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We only see 7 ships in the battle group, what if those are only the big ships, like soveirgns or Galaxy class, what if the rest are Defiants or Nebulas or Oberths? Its just a thought.

It lists the first one on it as being the USS Intrepid (aka. Voyager's class). The Intrepid is pretty small. It's unlikely that the listing would have included that but ignored warships such as a Defiant-class ship. Additionally, SF does appear to count small fighters in its ship counts, making it even less likely that they would ignore a ship like the Defiant.

BTW, the Nebula is pretty big. It's almost as large as the Galaxy class, which is one of the largest SF ship classes. I assume you mean "Saber" or some similar class.

Still, that was only ONE battle group, that was meant to meet with the Enterprise and escort it to Earth for defense of the planet. THey proably were shipping every other boat toward Earth for a Battle of the Line as it were.

Well, the largest known ship in the battle group was the USS Galaxy itself. Its possible that only the offensive ships were listed. Theoretically the Intrepid class is a Light Cruiser, so it would make the list. Any Sabres, Excelsiors, Mirandas, or Norway class ships wouldn't make the list IF that was how they were listing things.

FaxModem1 wrote:Still, that was only ONE battle group, that was meant to meet with the Enterprise and escort it to Earth for defense of the planet. THey proably were shipping every other boat toward Earth for a Battle of the Line as it were.

lol. They should have been moving their ships there for days. Besides, after talking with SF command, Picard was still convinced that the only chance for Earth was that Shinzon would go after the E-E first.

Master of Ossus wrote:It lists the first one on it as being the USS Intrepid (aka. Voyager's class). The Intrepid is pretty small. It's unlikely that the listing would have included that but ignored warships such as a Defiant-class ship.

It also included the USS Galaxy (Galaxy class), the USS Archer (unknown class) and some other ships.

Additionally, SF does appear to count small fighters in its ship counts, making it even less likely that they would ignore a ship like the Defiant.

I have never seen a single source for this claim that fighters are considered captial ships and included in fleet number counts which go's against logic AND Trek conventions (given that starship support craft like shuttles and the Captians Yacht) carry the hull number of the mothership. Is there any source at ALL that claims this given that no support craft (bar runabouts which are not support craft assigned to starships but are much larger multi purpose mini starships generaly assigned to starbases only) have their own number?

Chris O'Farrell wrote:I have never seen a single source for this claim that fighters are considered captial ships and included in fleet number counts which go's against logic AND Trek conventions (given that starship support craft like shuttles and the Captians Yacht) carry the hull number of the mothership. Is there any source at ALL that claims this given that no support craft (bar runabouts which are not support craft assigned to starships but are much larger multi purpose mini starships generaly assigned to starbases only) have their own number?

It's from Sacrifice of Angels, where they have Jem'Hadar fighters being counted amongst the fleet numbers. It's also confirmed later when Martok and Sisko are talking about how the Cardassians, Breen, and Dominion outnumber the Klingons 30,000 to 1,500. It would have been impossible for the Klingons to hold that, unless the Dominion's fighters were being counted. I also believe that they counted the ships just before the JH kamikazeed their fighters into the Klingon vessels and included the smallest Dominion vessels in the count.

Master of Ossus wrote:

FaxModem1 wrote:Still, that was only ONE battle group, that was meant to meet with the Enterprise and escort it to Earth for defense of the planet. THey proably were shipping every other boat toward Earth for a Battle of the Line as it were.

lol. They should have been moving their ships there for days.

Why? So there is an unknown situation on the Romulan homeworld, a new goverment comes into power that apparently wants to talk peace with the UFP....and your response is to flood the boarder with a massive number of starships? THATS a good way to start off with the new goverment. Further, do you have any proof that the battlegroup was the only one on the boarder or the only ships between Earth and Romulas? Given the speed of warp drive, you would make for the nearest group of Federation ships. Given the length of the boarder and the speed of warp drive, its not as if you could have thousands of ships at every point along the boarder. Nor would you need to dedicated more then the dozen ships shown to the engagement. A starfleet battelgroup of that size should be perfectly capable of taking down the warbird. If you get an entire fleet there, exactly WHAT do you think Shinzon is going to do? Say; "Hey its the entire 7th fleet! CHARGE!" or "Screw this, lets head to Earth".

Given that the ship is utterly invisable to any detection the UFP has, if he is scared off or does not follow the E-E and heads to Earth instead, your f*#ed. He can take out Earth at his leasure. He only needs one shot which with his cloak he can take at his pleasure.

Besides, after talking with SF command, Picard was still convinced that the only chance for Earth was that Shinzon would go after the E-E first.

Indeed given that you can't find the ship before it strikes, your only chance is to hope he engages you thinking the odds are reletivly even and not be scared off to head to Earth first THEN hunt down the E-E.

Chris O'Farrell wrote: Why? So there is an unknown situation on the Romulan homeworld, a new goverment comes into power that apparently wants to talk peace with the UFP....and your response is to flood the boarder with a massive number of starships? THATS a good way to start off with the new goverment.

Thats sure as hell what I'd do. At least get the fleet ready for deployment. Do you think the US military was at an above-average state of readiness when the wall fell?

Master of Ossus wrote:

Chris O'Farrell wrote:I have never seen a single source for this claim that fighters are considered captial ships and included in fleet number counts which go's against logic AND Trek conventions (given that starship support craft like shuttles and the Captians Yacht) carry the hull number of the mothership. Is there any source at ALL that claims this given that no support craft (bar runabouts which are not support craft assigned to starships but are much larger multi purpose mini starships generaly assigned to starbases only) have their own number?

It's from Sacrifice of Angels, where they have Jem'Hadar fighters being counted amongst the fleet numbers.

*sigh*

Jem'Hadar fighters are A HUNDRED METERS LONG!!! They are Corvette sized ships. They are NOT fighter craft. Granted, their name is Jem'Hadar fighters, a term that appears to have been addopted from the Dominion. None of this applies to the claim that FEDERATION FIGHTERS which are what, 15 meters long are counted in capital ship counts!

It's also confirmed later when Martok and Sisko are talking about how the Cardassians, Breen, and Dominion outnumber the Klingons 30,000 to 1,500. It would have been impossible for the Klingons to hold that, unless the Dominion's fighters were being counted.

Once more, we are not talking about the Jem'Hadar fighters, we are talking about Federation fighters. Now if you can provide me a source pointing to FEDERATION FIGHTERS being counted in their fleet numbers, thats fine. But if you expect me to belive that because the Federation counts what are VERY clearly capital ships in a fleet count (unless of course you think the definition of 'fighter' means a 100 meter long ship with a crew of fifty people) that they are going to count their own fighters which are a totaly different class, well, thats simply ilogical.

I also believe that they counted the ships just before the JH kamikazeed their fighters into the Klingon vessels and included the smallest Dominion vessels in the count.

Yes that was 5 squadrons of Jem'Hadar fighters. But all of this has no bearing on the UFP. Your attempting to say that because the UFP calls what is clearly a capital ship a fighter (a designation that appears to be a Dominion one or Romulan one and has been addopted through the AQ since then as an agreeed upon designation (TDIC) but NOT a UFP one) that their own fighters also apply under that rule, EVEN when they are a totaly different ship class AND it go's against their precedents with UFP support craft.

Sorry, try again.

Chris O'Farrell wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:

FaxModem1 wrote:Still, that was only ONE battle group, that was meant to meet with the Enterprise and escort it to Earth for defense of the planet. THey proably were shipping every other boat toward Earth for a Battle of the Line as it were.

lol. They should have been moving their ships there for days.

Why? So there is an unknown situation on the Romulan homeworld, a new goverment comes into power that apparently wants to talk peace with the UFP....and your response is to flood the boarder with a massive number of starships?

LMAO! Chris, are you purposely trying to play dumb, or is this an honest statement that SF's policy here was correct?

THATS a good way to start off with the new goverment. Further, do you have any proof that the battlegroup was the only one on the boarder or the only ships between Earth and Romulas? Given the speed of warp drive, you would make for the nearest group of Federation ships.

No. SF REROUTED the fleet to rendezvous with the E-E where it did.

Given the length of the boarder and the speed of warp drive, its not as if you could have thousands of ships at every point along the boarder. Nor would you need to dedicated more then the dozen ships shown to the engagement. A starfleet battelgroup of that size should be perfectly capable of taking down the warbird.

And what if Shinzon had taken more ships with him to attack the E-E? What if he had more ships? SF knew NOTHING about his capabilities. Additionally, the border was small enough so that in "Balance of Terror" a non-warp driven craft could cover a significant portion of the border.

If you get an entire fleet there, exactly WHAT do you think Shinzon is going to do? Say; "Hey its the entire 7th fleet! CHARGE!" or "Screw this, lets head to Earth".

He NEEDS to attack the E-E. He would likely call for reinforcements. But wait! He doesn't know that the SF ships are there. According to his intelligence, they would be somewhere else. All the E-E needs to do is to stall his ship long enough for the rest of the fleet to arrive.

Given that the ship is utterly invisable to any detection the UFP has, if he is scared off or does not follow the E-E and heads to Earth instead, your f*#ed. He can take out Earth at his leasure. He only needs one shot which with his cloak he can take at his pleasure.

And if he doesn't attack the E-E, he's fucked. What's your point?

Besides, after talking with SF command, Picard was still convinced that the only chance for Earth was that Shinzon would go after the E-E first.

Indeed given that you can't find the ship before it strikes, your only chance is to hope he engages you thinking the odds are reletivly even and not be scared off to head to Earth first THEN hunt down the E-E. [/quote]

He can't do that, Chris. Besides, SF obviously wasn't taking Shinzon's psychology into play, or they never would have moved the E-E through an area in which it could not communicate, AND without sending any ships out to assist it. Further, what do you recommend that the rest of the fleet do? Sit around Earth waiting for it to be destroyed?

Chris O'Farrell wrote:Yes that was 5 squadrons of Jem'Hadar fighters. But all of this has no bearing on the UFP. Your attempting to say that because the UFP calls what is clearly a capital ship a fighter (a designation that appears to be a Dominion one or Romulan one and has been addopted through the AQ since then as an agreeed upon designation (TDIC) but NOT a UFP one) that their own fighters also apply under that rule, EVEN when they are a totaly different ship class AND it go's against their precedents with UFP support craft.

Sorry, try again.

So the UFP counts its own ships and those of its enemies differently? How are they supposed to compare fleet sizes accurately (then again, they don't, as shown by Martok's little chat). Moreover, Maquis ships that ARE UFP fighters are referred to as their own "ships" whenever they are seen. Additionally, runabouts are used as support ships but they are also used as fighters. They are counted as ships. Peregrine fighters are known to be present in several engagements, but are not listed among the ship-counts that are generated separately (ie. We have four hundred ships and twelve squadrons of fighters), lending further weight to the assertion that the UFP counts fighters as ships. Finally, this whole discussion began because one Trekkie tried to claim that ships like Sabers and Defiants were not counted among the seven ships there. You have just admitted that this would violate all precedents established by the UFP for themselves and others. Concession accepted. Nice debating you, Chris.

Howedar wrote:

Chris O'Farrell wrote: Why? So there is an unknown situation on the Romulan homeworld, a new goverment comes into power that apparently wants to talk peace with the UFP....and your response is to flood the boarder with a massive number of starships? THATS a good way to start off with the new goverment.

Thats sure as hell what I'd do. At least get the fleet ready for deployment. Do you think the US military was at an above-average state of readiness when the wall fell?

Sure but did the US drive the first Armoured Division upto the German boarder and park it all along it like its apparently being suggested here to do with Starfleets fleets?

There is nothing signifiying that Starfleet was not watching or being careful. We know they had at least one group of ships in ready positino on the boarder. Between that and Sol we don't have the first clue. Its a LONG WAY, what fleets, defences and such there were we DON'T KNOW, but its not mentioned one way or the other in the movie what was going on. The fact that the only hope for Earth was Shinzon chasing the E-E does not equate to Starfleet not having any fleets or ships around. Heck we know for a fact they at LEAST have one battlegroup around. But as Riker said, that ship could pass within ten meters of every ship in the fleet and not so much as trip a sensor then suddenly fry Earth with no warning.

Chris O'Farrell wrote:There is nothing signifiying that Starfleet was not watching or being careful.

Demonstrate that they were. They had no file on Shinzon. They didn't even know that the coup was taking place, even though there had been a rebellion on Remus for months.

We know they had at least one group of ships in ready positino on the boarder. Between that and Sol we don't have the first clue. Its a LONG WAY, what fleets, defences and such there were we DON'T KNOW, but its not mentioned one way or the other in the movie what was going on.

THE FLEET is being sent to rendezvous with the E-E. Additionally, it's such a long distance that it's going to take the Scimitar hours to cross.

The fact that the only hope for Earth was Shinzon chasing the E-E does not equate to Starfleet not having any fleets or ships around. Heck we know for a fact they at LEAST have one battlegroup around. But as Riker said, that ship could pass within ten meters of every ship in the fleet and not so much as trip a sensor then suddenly fry Earth with no warning.

So why would they have their ships waiting around to be irradiated and then captured by Shinzon and his forces?

Master of Ossus wrote:

Chris O'Farrell wrote:Yes that was 5 squadrons of Jem'Hadar fighters. But all of this has no bearing on the UFP. Your attempting to say that because the UFP calls what is clearly a capital ship a fighter (a designation that appears to be a Dominion one or Romulan one and has been addopted through the AQ since then as an agreeed upon designation (TDIC) but NOT a UFP one) that their own fighters also apply under that rule, EVEN when they are a totaly different ship class AND it go's against their precedents with UFP support craft.

Sorry, try again.

So the UFP counts its own ships and those of its enemies differently? How are they supposed to compare fleet sizes accurately (then again, they don't, as shown by Martok's little chat).

No, the UFP simply used the term that everyone else used. At first they always calld the JH fighters "Jem'Hadar ships". The Romulan officer in TDIC was the first person to use the term 'Jem'Hadar fighter', even the Defiants crew in that episode still used 'Jem'Hadar ship' NOT fighter. Up until the outbreak of the Dominion war, the UFP NEVER used the term 'fighter' to describe the JH ships. Examples:

In DS9, 'The Ship', when they are traped on that downed JH fighter, they never use the term fighter. Just 'warpship' or 'attack ship' or at worst, 'ship'.

In DS9 'Blaze Of Glory', Sisko used the designation "Jem'Hadar warships" for the two fighters.

In DS9 'A Time To Stand', when talking to Admiral Ross about the ship from "The Ship" they captured, Sisko calls it a 'Jem'Hadar attack ship'. When the three ships came chasing the UFP ship that was chasing Sisko, Dax called them Jem'Hadar ships. Not fighters.

In fact, teh VERY first time the UFP used the term "Jem'Hadar fighters" was in Tears of the prophets....the same episode when the Romulans first joined with the UFP and KE in an attack on the DOminon surprise surprise.

What I am saying is that the designation is an addopted one, not that the UFP is clasing them as fighters when they have been calling them attack ships and warships.

Moreover, Maquis ships that ARE UFP fighters are referred to as their own "ships" whenever they are seen.

The Maquis raiders? They are refered to as raiders usualy. Except in the Maquis when they used civil versions of Tac Fighters which were later refered to as lightly armed shuttlecraft by that GCS captain.

Additionally, runabouts are used as support ships but they are also used as fighters.

Runaobuts are never used as support ships by starships. They are only ever stationed on starbases. DS9 has some. THe only time we saw one in TNG was when Picard and co were returning from a starbase to the E-D. They are much larger then fighters and a mini starship essentialy, not a support craft like a shuttle. Much longer range, higher speeds and their own NCC designation (which shuttles DON'T have).

They are counted as ships. Peregrine fighters are known to be present in several engagements, but are not listed among the ship-counts that are generated separately (ie. We have four hundred ships and twelve squadrons of fighters), lending further weight to the assertion that the UFP counts fighters as ships.

Why exactly would they talk abuot how many squadrons of fighters they have in the fleet count? The only time I recall such a number, it was:

"How large"
"Twelve hundred and fifty four ships"
"They outnumber us two to one"

Basiher here is simply pointing out they are outnumbered two to one. Nothing here about fighters or anything one way or the other.

Finally, this whole discussion began because one Trekkie tried to claim that ships like Sabers and Defiants were not counted among the seven ships there. You have just admitted that this would violate all precedents established by the UFP for themselves and others. Concession accepted. Nice debating you, Chris.

Oh shutup. Was I trying to support his point in this thread? No. Was I claiming Defiants or Sabres were not counted in a fleet like that? NO. ALL I was talking about was the fighter numbers and the claims of them being in fleets. Nothing more, nothing less.

Chris O'Farrell wrote:

Additionally, runabouts are used as support ships but they are also used as fighters.

Runaobuts are never used as support ships by starships. They are only ever stationed on starbases. DS9 has some. THe only time we saw one in TNG was when Picard and co were returning from a starbase to the E-D. They are much larger then fighters and a mini starship essentialy, not a support craft like a shuttle. Much longer range, higher speeds and their own NCC designation (which shuttles DON'T have).

Really? Even in "The Jem'Hadar" [DS9], when a GCS is escorted by a trio of runabouts? The runabouts, I guess, travelled all that distance without being carried by the ship? When the Enterprise-D delivered three runabouts to DS9, it was not carrying them in a manner so that they could have been used as support ships?

Master of Ossus wrote:

Chris O'Farrell wrote:

Additionally, runabouts are used as support ships but they are also used as fighters.

Runaobuts are never used as support ships by starships. They are only ever stationed on starbases. DS9 has some. THe only time we saw one in TNG was when Picard and co were returning from a starbase to the E-D. They are much larger then fighters and a mini starship essentialy, not a support craft like a shuttle. Much longer range, higher speeds and their own NCC designation (which shuttles DON'T have).

Really? Even in "The Jem'Hadar" [DS9], when a GCS is escorted by a trio of runabouts? The runabouts, I guess, travelled all that distance without being carried by the ship? When the Enterprise-D delivered three runabouts to DS9, it was not carrying them in a manner so that they could have been used as support ships?

In the case of the E-D it DELIVERED the Runabouts to DS9, they were not part of the ships standard manifest. As for the Odessey, those were quite clearly DS9 ships escorting the GCS because the DS9 crew has experience in the GQ. You should note that two of the three Runabouts were using sensor pods, they were running forward interfance. They were not attached to the ship as a standard compliment.

Runabouts typically act as small scale starships as evidence by their use in DS9.

I am not taking sides here but a thought did come to mind. Two fo teh ships in the "Fleet" mentioned are known ship types. This is the Galaxy and the Intrepid both of these ships are exploration/science focused ships if I remember right.

May SF realized that large numbers of standard ships would get pummeled so they only sent ships with superior sensors in the hope that they might pierce the cloak of the Scimitar and have a chance.

Just a thought.

The Intrepid, Galaxy, and Archer are all I caught as well, anyone see any other ship names?

Master of Ossus wrote:

Chris O'Farrell wrote:

Additionally, runabouts are used as support ships but they are also used as fighters.

Runaobuts are never used as support ships by starships. They are only ever stationed on starbases. DS9 has some. THe only time we saw one in TNG was when Picard and co were returning from a starbase to the E-D. They are much larger then fighters and a mini starship essentialy, not a support craft like a shuttle. Much longer range, higher speeds and their own NCC designation (which shuttles DON'T have).

Really? Even in "The Jem'Hadar" [DS9], when a GCS is escorted by a trio of runabouts?

You DO know that those runabouts were in fact DS9's three runaobuts that had come along for the trip because the command staff of DS9 had refused to stay behind...don't you?

The runabouts, I guess, travelled all that distance without being carried by the ship?

Don't see why not. Runabouts are designed to operate at warp speed for a period of time at least equal to fourty seven days (Timescape).

When the Enterprise-D delivered three runabouts to DS9, it was not carrying them in a manner so that they could have been used as support ships?

No, the E-D was on a mission to offload supplies and personal to DS9. It was scheduled to offload 3 runaobuts to DS9 as part of the scheduled deployments there. They did not belong to the E-D, it was simply acting as a carrier.