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ERIM'S COM VOICE
Yew-cheen chef-faw... Bridge to Captain
Picard...

PICARD
Yes, Ensign...

PERIM'S COM VOICE
Command wants to know our ETA at
the Goren systsem...

PICARD
(to Riker)
The Goren system...?

RIKER
They need us to mediate some
territorial dispute...

PICARD
(frustrated)
We can't delay the archaeological
expedition to Hanoran Two. It
would put us into the middle of
monsoon season...

RIKER
(can't be helped)
The Diplomatic Corps is busy with
Dominion negotiations.

It's like an epsiode of TNG. And the Dominion War was still going at this point- really, shouldn't the Federation "flagship", the most advanced ship in the fleet (Geordi, First Contact) be at the front? What the hell is it doing involving itself with archaeological expeditions and petty territorial disputes? (not to mention wasting time with the midget aliens who only just got warp drive and so are effectively useless wartime allies).

Frankly, I can't believe they wasted their time on the entire plot when they had it set smack-dab in the middle of the Dominion War. Can anyone say colossal missed opportunity?

We've had this discussion what three hundred times?
The usual explain-away is something to do with propaganda, it'd be a major blow to the feds morale if the E-E went down to the dominion. (and being the best ship in the fleet they'd probably coincentrate on blowig it away)

Another Idea is that it could be to free up a lot of ships in the area. The ee is the biggest fastest meanest ship in the fleet, so if they set it patrollin anf waving the flag in the calmer parts of the federation you can fre up all the excelsiors and mirandas that would be patrolling there and send them to the front to be cannon-fodder.

Vympel wrote:And the Dominion War was still going at this point-

I'm pretty sure it's immediately post-war actually, while there are still negotiations on, the fighting's stopped, barring small scale skirmishes...

Crazedwraith wrote:We've had this discussion what three hundred times?

No. There have been discussions on where Soveriegn-class ships were during the Dominion War, where the Enteprise-E was specifically in the Dominion War, but not why the hell the Enterprise-E was wasting it's time on archaeological expeditions like it's a non-war Galaxy class pleasure liner in the hey-day of TNG.

I'm pretty sure it's immediately post-war actually, while there are still negotiations on, the fighting's stopped, barring small scale skirmishes...

No, it was at the 18 month mark (the Dominion War lasted 24 months)- Alyeska did some good reasoning on that point in a previous thread. There's also the matter that the film was made in 1998 and the Dominion War didn't end until DS9 Season 7 (1999).

Best answer is still waving the flag through the UFP.

With most of the fleet tied up fighting the war, realisticly, a single Sovereign class ship isn't going to make any real difference. And hte loss of the fleets flagship would be a huge blow of moral, let alone if the crew and ship were captured.

So, the Federation keeps her behind the lines, doing the most critical work that still has to be done. But with her resources, speed and experenced crew, they can keep 'putting out the brushfires' as it were.

Though I have no idea what they were doing with visiting planets for scientific research or whatever. Unless it was really critical to the UFP.

Though I have no idea what they were doing with visiting planets for scientific research or whatever. Unless it was really critical to the UFP.

PR, perhaps ? "Look, the war can't be that bad, we've got one of our big cruisers doing surveys..."

Or maybe there was more to the archeological expedition then meets the eye.

Same reason that in First Contact Starfleet sent the Enterprise-E away to gad about the Neutral Zone while the Borg were attacking Earth, because they were afraid of Picard going cuckoo for CocaPuffs instead of just temporarily relieving him of command, sticking him in a holding cell, and putting Riker in charge. The people in charge there are just not terribly bright when it comes to military matters, it seems.

because they were afraid of Picard going cuckoo for CocaPuffs

Because the Dominion had an alliance with the Bo...waidaminute...

instead of just temporarily relieving him of command, sticking him in a holding cell, and putting Riker in charge.

So they'd throw him in jail for...what, exactly ? It'd been nearly a decade since the BOBW events and Starfleet had no problems whatsoever giving Picard sensitive assignments. If you're going to whine about Starfleet, at least do it for the right reasons

Throwing him in a holding cell is somewhat of an exaggeration to emphasise the central point I'm making: if you're not going to use the most powerful and advanced ship in your fleet just because you're afraid the captain is going to act irresponsibly, then temporarily remove the captain and replace him with somebody who is more mentally stable instead of sending the whole ship and its crew away.

if you're not going to use the most powerful and advanced ship in your fleet just because you're afraid the captain is going to act irresponsibly

They did this *once* during the Borg invasion. Picard was perfectly capable of handling command.

Bounty wrote:

if you're not going to use the most powerful and advanced ship in your fleet just because you're afraid the captain is going to act irresponsibly

They did this *once* during the Borg invasion. Picard was perfectly capable of handling command.

And if anything, it taught them what a colossal screw-up it was, so that they wouldn't do it again.

Bounty wrote:

Though I have no idea what they were doing with visiting planets for scientific research or whatever. Unless it was really critical to the UFP.

PR, perhaps ? "Look, the war can't be that bad, we've got one of our big cruisers doing surveys..."

Or maybe there was more to the archeological expedition then meets the eye.

The brushfire theory's the most reasonable to me, but the dig... it's hard to think of it as being important enough to justify their involvement, but not important enough to bump it in favor of putting that beaded headband on Picard.

Bounty wrote:

if you're not going to use the most powerful and advanced ship in your fleet just because you're afraid the captain is going to act irresponsibly

They did this *once* during the Borg invasion. Picard was perfectly capable of handling command.

And they lost how many ships and how many crew members because of that decision? How does that even make any sense?

Picard may have been perfectly capable of handling his command but apparently his superiors in Starfleet didn't think so becaue they wouldn't let him take part in the fight against the Borg. Again, how does that make any sense?

Vympel wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:We've had this discussion what three hundred times?

No. There have been discussions on where Soveriegn-class ships were during the Dominion War, where the Enteprise-E was specifically in the Dominion War, but not why the hell the Enterprise-E was wasting it's time on archaeological expeditions like it's a non-war Galaxy class pleasure liner in the hey-day of TNG.

Oh I'm sorry because you phrased it slightly differently its a completely different topic. They all came down to the same thing. "why isn't the EE at the front lines?" just because you added a Inserrection quote doesn't change that.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Best answer is still waving the flag through the UFP.

With most of the fleet tied up fighting the war, realisticly, a single Sovereign class ship isn't going to make any real difference. And hte loss of the fleets flagship would be a huge blow of moral, let alone if the crew and ship were captured.

So, the Federation keeps her behind the lines, doing the most critical work that still has to be done. But with her resources, speed and experenced crew, they can keep 'putting out the brushfires' as it were.

Though I have no idea what they were doing with visiting planets for scientific research or whatever. Unless it was really critical to the UFP.

Sorry, doesn't work. That would have been sort of like pulling the New Jersey or the Essex out of the Pacific during the Philippines campaign to go around "showing the flag" instead of keeping them on the battleline where their firepower/airpower would have been of most use. Keeping a top-of-the-line battleship out of frontline combat service during a war of national survival for reasons of preserving prestige is, to put it simply, loony.

Using an older but well known Ambassador class ship with a strong reputation would have filled the same role as the Enterprise, had about the same prestige, and been much less of a drain on Starfleet.

As for the archaelogical dig, perhaps the E-E was "pulling an Excaliber," searching for any lost science or technology in the ruins of ancient civilizations like the T'Kon or Iconians that could shift the balance in the Federation's favor. As for the Sovereign, granted it has the firepower of at least 2 Galaxy-class starships in terms of torpedoes but the Enterprise-E is one ship part of a fleet of thousands by the height of the war. Recall that the Cardassian-Breen-Dominion alliance outnumbered the Klingon's Cardassian theatre fleet of around a couple thousand 15 to 1. As powerful as the Enterprise-E is, the tendency for ships named Enterprise to attract trouble like a black hole attracts matter as well as her crew's unusual luck in finding interesting things for the Federation to study, it makes for a decent enough political argument to put the E-E as far from the front as possible.

Not unlike Excaliber from B5, most powerful ship in known space or not, if there is even the slightest chance that Picard's diplomatic savy, the ship's top of the line systems and speed can simultaneously recruit allies, scour the ruins of the mountain of dead civilizations for anything useful and deter any ambitious minor races from opening a new front for the Federation to fight on then its worth it to pull the E-E.

Maybe the current leadership in the Federation was just screwy. Or maybe it was political (did Picard piss someone off in the Admiralty or something?) I mean, we did have the screwup where Janeway ended up an Admiral remember, so there's definittely something weird going on in that time period, methinks.

Crazedwraith wrote:
Oh I'm sorry because you phrased it slightly differently its a completely different topic. They all came down to the same thing. "why isn't the EE at the front lines?"

No, it's not the same topic. Because if the E-E is elsewhere that still leaves scope open for what it's actually doing and how important it is for the fucking Federation. An example of what it's doing is a different thing.

just because you added a Inserrection quote doesn't change that.

And if you were a moderator you could lock the thread. However, as far as everyone else is concerned, it seems like the topic is worthy of discussion, that's all I need for the thread to continue, and apparently Alyeska agrees. So you can kindly kiss my hairy Greek moderator arse.

Vympel wrote:No, it was at the 18 month mark (the Dominion War lasted 24 months)- Alyeska did some good reasoning on that point in a previous thread. There's also the matter that the film was made in 1998 and the Dominion War didn't end until DS9 Season 7 (1999).

I'm glad someone remembers that timeline I came up with. So many people get confused with the "Dominion Negotiations" statement.

It could be that the E-E had been fighting the war, went in for a refit or to repair damage, and given diplomatic/exploring duties while conducting a shakedown cruise, during a lull in the fighting as evidenced by the Dominion negotiations. When events fo the Briar patch flared up, the E-E was of course the only ship around to handle it.

Captain Picard is hardly a tactician. In FC, he's actually assigned away from the battlefield. Granted, due to his 'Borg problems'. A conflict of interest. However, his tactics were hardly brillent when he went against orders and engaged the Borg. He just happened to hear/know a point that was weak due to 'comm. traffic'.

I dont know why they didnt take the opporunity to write a few good books about the Enterprise's exploits during the Dominon War. That would surely clear things up a bit.

Pax Britannia wrote:I dont know why they didnt take the opporunity to write a few good books about the Enterprise's exploits during the Dominon War. That would surely clear things up a bit.

In the two Dominion Wars books it was in it was in a few skirmishes then spent the rest of the books in spacedock for repairs.

Sharp-kun wrote:

Pax Britannia wrote:I dont know why they didnt take the opporunity to write a few good books about the Enterprise's exploits during the Dominon War. That would surely clear things up a bit.

In the two Dominion Wars books it was in it was in a few skirmishes then spent the rest of the books in spacedock for repairs.

I guess that fits in with the idea that the Dominion would try to destroy her as a blow to Federation morale, making Starfleet wary of sending her back out to the front by the time of Insurrection. Then:

Deathstalker wrote:It could be that the E-E had been fighting the war, went in for a refit or to repair damage, and given diplomatic/exploring duties while conducting a shakedown cruise, during a lull in the fighting as evidenced by the Dominion negotiations. When events fo the Briar patch flared up, the E-E was of course the only ship around to handle it.

Now, the 'waving the flag' idea has been refuted since the E-E's combat abilities are wasted and another ship could do the job. Other missions where this applies are seeking out useful/advanced/niche tech from dead/degenerate civilisations (possibly the purpose of the archeological expedition) and from new allies (who might even be powerful enough to tip the balance). Picard's first-contact experience and diplomatic skills would be useful though.

For the 'freeing up ships' idea, it may be that the latest Starfleet military doctrine is that a small number of ships, fast enough to patrol several potential trouble spots and strong enough to deter incursions (the 'brushfire' idea), is better than tying up many slower, weaker ships that would be needed to repel a Falklands War that may never happen. The territorial dispute of the nouveau-warp aliens could have destabilised a known trouble area, that might have resulted in small factions attempting to capitalise on the Federation's strain. (alternatively, they could have had a useful technology which they would only share with the Federation after they helped resolve the dispute.)

After the events of Insurrection and the failure of Dominion negotiations they could have decided to keep the E-E out there for this reason. Picard's diplomatic skills (including recent success with the midget aliens) may have been a factor in choosing the E-E for these 'peacekeeping' duties. There might even have been some bureaucratic controversy over the decision.

So really, i see four possible reasons for keeping the E-E away:

• 1. Dominion propaganda victory. (Previous incident)
  2. Freeing-up ships e.g. from brushfire duty. (Strategic doctrine)
  3. Acquiring useful tech and making new, strong allies. (Picard's skills)
  4. Politico-military screw-up. (Close call controversy)