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Did you notice that right when the enterprise was attacked entering the obigatory star trek space cloud du jour, they were traveling at "maximum warp". the scimitar hit the E-E with a volley of at the very least half a dozen torpedoes more likely 9. the salvo subsequently knocked the E-E out of warp.
were the ships shields up? i don't think so because just as Picard realized Shinzon's plot to attack them in the 'rift' he ordered the ship to red alert but not before the ship was rocked several times by incoming fire. the movie then cut to an external view and showed no less than 6 more torpedoes strike the ship knocking it out of warp (the E-E's sudden and rapid de-acceleration to sublight and the scimitar's rocketing past it illustrates this).

so what does this say? well using the 64-128 MT standard for romulan torpedoes we can hypothesise that the unshielded E-E was struck by a barrage equaling somewhere between 576 to 1152 megatons of expolsive force on the openeing volley. said volley was sufficient to disable the E-E'S FTL capability.

We also can safely say that the Reman Warbirds have the capability to precisely launch warp strafing attacks at high warp upon ships traveling at high warp.

We also can safely say that the Reman Warbirds have the capability to precisely launch warp strafing attacks at high warp upon ships traveling at high warp.

That was never in dispute, photon torpedoes are the only weapons that can be used at warp- but ONLY against other ships travelling at warp- when fired at warp they travel at warp velocities, however they cannon accelerate to warp velocity when fired at sublight.

This is hardly warp strafing- that's a tactic whereby the ship constantly remains at warp and attacks a ship at sublight. Needless to say, this has never been demonstrated- and maneuvers such as the Picard Maneuver put paid to the idea.

beyond warp combat, this gives us some good information regarding fed and romulan ship durability.

the 576-1152 MT opening salvo from the scimitar demonstrated, that while the Warp Drive is a fragile piece of crap unable to withstand sustained combat, the E-E herself, once her shields were up, is indeed much more durable than previously thought, withstanding many dozens of 64-128 megaton torpedo hits and many dozens of disruptor (how powerful?) hits. now bear in mind i am by no stretch of the imagination saying that it would be able to handle much in the way of medium or heavy turbolaser fire, but i think that the ST ships are somewhat more powerful than we tend to give them credit for.

Well firstly 64MT is the absolute theoretical upper limit for photon torpedoes. 128MT is the quantum torpedo number. Then, because they're not directed energy weapons and distribute their energy equally in all directions (see Q Who), cut the number in half for a theoretical maximum load of 32MT for a direct photon hit. This is of course making other generous assumptions- see the Photon Torpedo section on the main site.

So it's actually some 288MT, not 576MT. And they weren't quantums, so the thousand megaton figure goes right out the window.

As an aside, The Scimitar has an unheard of number of torpedo tubes: 27. As Lord Wong pointed out on another thread:

One must also question how much antimatter they can load into the tubes, and how quickly. Antimatter is obviously volatile and dangerous stuff; you don't pump it like gasoline. A high rate of fire requires high rates of antimatter flow from the tanks into the torps, and that is inherently dangerous because high-speed pumping is probably riskier.

They're probably launching weaker torps for that reason, in the hopes that volume makes up for it. Perhaps.

Vympel wrote:

We also can safely say that the Reman Warbirds have the capability to precisely launch warp strafing attacks at high warp upon ships traveling at high warp.

That was never in dispute, photon torpedoes are the only weapons that can be used at warp- but ONLY against other ships travelling at warp- when fired at warp they travel at warp velocities, however they cannon accelerate to warp velocity when fired at sublight.

This is hardly warp strafing- that's a tactic whereby the ship constantly remains at warp and attacks a ship at sublight. Needless to say, this has never been demonstrated- and maneuvers such as the Picard Maneuver put paid to the idea.

Incorrect. Phasers have been used at warp in multiple occassions. The most noteable example being VGR Message in a Bottle.

Alyeska wrote:
Incorrect. Phasers have been used at warp in multiple occassions. The most noteable example being VGR Message in a Bottle.

So it's MY fault that they threw out Gene's TNG writers guide?

Vympel wrote:

Alyeska wrote:
Incorrect. Phasers have been used at warp in multiple occassions. The most noteable example being VGR Message in a Bottle.

So it's MY fault that they threw out Gene's TNG writers guide?

And what is the point of that statement? We already know that there is contradictions between the series and the TMs.

Alyeska wrote:
And what is the point of that statement? We already know that there is contradictions between the series and the TMs.

It was demonstrating that I was not aware of the Voyager example in a non-boring, non-matter of fact way.

Vympel wrote:

Alyeska wrote:
And what is the point of that statement? We already know that there is contradictions between the series and the TMs.

It was demonstrating that I was not aware of the Voyager example in a non-boring, non-matter of fact way.

There is also a DS9 example in which a Runabout destroys a Jem'Hadar attackship at warp using phasers. The Enterprise also fired phasers at a target at warp once IIRC.

Alyeska wrote: There is also a DS9 example in which a Runabout destroys a Jem'Hadar attackship at warp using phasers. The Enterprise also fired phasers at a target at warp once IIRC.

E-D or TOS?

This is what I get for being deprived of DS9 by fucked up Aussie tv networks.

Vympel wrote:

Alyeska wrote: There is also a DS9 example in which a Runabout destroys a Jem'Hadar attackship at warp using phasers. The Enterprise also fired phasers at a target at warp once IIRC.

E-D or TOS?

This is what I get for being deprived of DS9 by fucked up Aussie tv networks.

E-D. I believe it was when that Probe that enhanced Barclay was chasing them. I think they fired from warp during their escape attempt.

Doesnt this also contradict what has been said many times before? The Enterprise took at least 7 direct hits from photon torps to their hull since shields were not up.

I did not think a Starfleet ship could take that many hits to a specific location and survive. Even more unusual is the fact that they took these hits without showing any major damage to the warp pylons. Sure they lost warp power but you would have expected that many hits to have ripped one or both of the pylons right off the ship.

Alyeska wrote:

Vympel wrote:

Alyeska wrote: There is also a DS9 example in which a Runabout destroys a Jem'Hadar attackship at warp using phasers. The Enterprise also fired phasers at a target at warp once IIRC.

E-D or TOS?

This is what I get for being deprived of DS9 by fucked up Aussie tv networks.

E-D. I believe it was when that Probe that enhanced Barclay was chasing them. I think they fired from warp during their escape attempt.

that is correct ,the enterprise was traveling at warp 9 and fired it's rear phasers at the probe. i think that is something, them firing the rear phasers that is. if they were to fire the forward phasers directly forward they would overtake the beam and damage themselves, would they not?

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Vympel wrote: E-D or TOS?

This is what I get for being deprived of DS9 by fucked up Aussie tv networks.

E-D. I believe it was when that Probe that enhanced Barclay was chasing them. I think they fired from warp during their escape attempt.

that is correct ,the enterprise was traveling at warp 9 and fired it's rear phasers at the probe. i think that is something, them firing the rear phasers that is. if they were to fire the forward phasers directly forward they would overtake the beam and damage themselves, would they not?

No. We have seen them fire phasers forward while at warp in both DS9 and VGR.

DocMoriartty wrote:Doesnt this also contradict what has been said many times before? The Enterprise took at least 7 direct hits from photon torps to their hull since shields were not up.

I did not think a Starfleet ship could take that many hits to a specific location and survive. Even more unusual is the fact that they took these hits without showing any major damage to the warp pylons. Sure they lost warp power but you would have expected that many hits to have ripped one or both of the pylons right off the ship.

the E-E is equipped with an ablative armor matrix like the defiant. in a DS9 episode the defiant was repeatedly hit by disrupters and torpedoes from klingon BOP's and Vor'Cha's while rescuing cardassians including gul dukat from a crippled galor class ship. the matrix held. this is another example of that.

Alyeska wrote:

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Alyeska wrote: E-D. I believe it was when that Probe that enhanced Barclay was chasing them. I think they fired from warp during their escape attempt.

that is correct ,the enterprise was traveling at warp 9 and fired it's rear phasers at the probe. i think that is something, them firing the rear phasers that is. if they were to fire the forward phasers directly forward they would overtake the beam and damage themselves, would they not?

No. We have seen them fire phasers forward while at warp in both DS9 and VGR.

how? they use a treknobable reverse modulating coaxial somethingorother?

Col. Crackpot wrote:

DocMoriartty wrote:Doesnt this also contradict what has been said many times before? The Enterprise took at least 7 direct hits from photon torps to their hull since shields were not up.

I did not think a Starfleet ship could take that many hits to a specific location and survive. Even more unusual is the fact that they took these hits without showing any major damage to the warp pylons. Sure they lost warp power but you would have expected that many hits to have ripped one or both of the pylons right off the ship.

the E-E is equipped with an ablative armor matrix like the defiant. in a DS9 episode the defiant was repeatedly hit by disrupters and torpedoes from klingon BOP's and Vor'Cha's while rescuing cardassians including gul dukat from a crippled galor class ship. the matrix held. this is another example of that.

Normally I would disagree with you because there was no stated evidence the Sovereign class has this. But since watching the trailers, I noted the damage pattern on the Enterprise and its damned near identical to that on the Defiant. It took relative damage to the area that was hit but there was very little damage spread across to other parts of the armor. Just like the Defiant in First Contact and when it was destroyed.

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Alyeska wrote:

Col. Crackpot wrote: that is correct ,the enterprise was traveling at warp 9 and fired it's rear phasers at the probe. i think that is something, them firing the rear phasers that is. if they were to fire the forward phasers directly forward they would overtake the beam and damage themselves, would they not?

No. We have seen them fire phasers forward while at warp in both DS9 and VGR.

how? they use a treknobable reverse modulating coaxial somethingorother?

We know phasers use Subspace just like the warp engines do. So it stands to reason that the phasers should be able to be fired while at warp just like they can communicate at warp. This is supported by the VGR and DS9 episodes. Its not technobable, it just is. Its better to leave something undescribed in Trek.

Alyeska wrote:

Col. Crackpot wrote:

DocMoriartty wrote:Doesnt this also contradict what has been said many times before? The Enterprise took at least 7 direct hits from photon torps to their hull since shields were not up.

I did not think a Starfleet ship could take that many hits to a specific location and survive. Even more unusual is the fact that they took these hits without showing any major damage to the warp pylons. Sure they lost warp power but you would have expected that many hits to have ripped one or both of the pylons right off the ship.

the E-E is equipped with an ablative armor matrix like the defiant. in a DS9 episode the defiant was repeatedly hit by disrupters and torpedoes from klingon BOP's and Vor'Cha's while rescuing cardassians including gul dukat from a crippled galor class ship. the matrix held. this is another example of that.

Normally I would disagree with you because there was no stated evidence the Sovereign class has this. But since watching the trailers, I noted the damage pattern on the Enterprise and its damned near identical to that on the Defiant. It took relative damage to the area that was hit but there was very little damage spread across to other parts of the armor. Just like the Defiant in First Contact and when it was destroyed.

there is a tremendous diference in how the GCS E-D and the Soverign E-E take damage. In generations, when the E-D was hit by a handfull of torpedoes and disrupters (practically) unshielded, the damage was so extensive they lost antimatter containment and the damn thing blew up. that is not so with the E-E in nemesis. it took over half a dozen torp hits unshielded and took many dozen hits each from torps and disrupters. it simply must be heavily armored, that is the only way to explain the vastly increased durability

Actually if you really want to talk about warp strafing the fact that the Scimitar drops out of warp to engage the Enterprise kinda finishes that argument off, doesn't it? It can be argued that he only wanted to *disable* the Enterprise so he could capture Picard, so if they *could* warp strafe with impunity they probably cannot target specific areas on a ship. It'd be sort of a "They're in that little area, open fire" sorta maneuver. Heck even when the Scimitar was trying to disable the Enterprise they still hit the bridge and ripped it open to space. Seems kinda like a stupid move if you're trying to capture the captain, so it was probably accidental.

We already know that that ST ships can engage another ship travelling in the same direction at about the same speed, so long as both sides are at warp. This has been demonstrated numerous times in the past. If anything, the fact that the Scimitar dropped out of warp to engage the Enterprise only further demonstrates that warp strafing is impossible.

What is the impact of Elaan of Troyilus on this issue? Or has that bit of TOS been completely annulled by later events in TNG?

Marcus wrote:What is the impact of Elaan of Troyilus on this issue? Or has that bit of TOS been completely annulled by later events in TNG?

Watch the episode. The Klingon ship is not moving at lightspeed, or even close to it. It's moving so slowly that Sulu can verbally count out distances in the tens of thousands of kilometres.

Ah, I have a feeling ive walked innocently, blindly, into a very old debate.

But, stop me where I get something wrong, here...

The Klingon ship is verbally reported to be travelling at Warp.

The fact that said ship is warp-capable, and the Enterprise is not, results in a purely one sided engagement until Elaan's necklace restores power to the Enterprise (yes, im well aware of the sillyness, there.)

We are left with a few choices-

1.) Sulu was wrong
2.) Whomever reported that the Klingon ship was at Warp was wrong (ive not seen the episode in some time)
3.) Warp Drive does not mean FTL (just silly, but included for completeness)
4.) Warp Drive provides power to the vessel in some way, shape, or form other than just making it go really, really fast, and that is why the lack of the Warp Drive was crippling the Enterprise. (note that this still requires either choice one or choice two, but goes a ways towards making the whole 'Warp is Important' angle make sense).

Marcus wrote:3.) Warp Drive does not mean FTL (just silly, but included for completeness)

Not silly, they used fractions of warp one in The Motion Picture.