Page 1 of 1
Check out this guy's excuses for NEM
Posted: 2002-12-20 12:46am
by Master of Ossus
This is from Trekbbs.com. I'm finding the site to be enormously entertaining because a large portion of its population do things like this, and then claim that the movie is "100X better than Lucas' sorry AOTC." This was posted in response to someone who was pointing out some of the plot-holes in the movie, and the letters IN ALL CAPS were written to respond to the initial points, which are in regular letters. Note that the ALL CAPS thing was put in by the second poster. I did not edit his post in any way.
1. The Enterprise is being chased by one of the most powerful ships they've ever encountered... and what do they do? They fly straight into a cloud that cuts them off from a fleet of waiting starships. Not only that, they don't realize it until AFTER they've entered the cloud!
THEY FLEW INTO THE CLOUD ON PURPOSE BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T REACH THE FLEET IN TIME, HOPING THE CLOUD WOULD GIVE THEM SOME COVER. WERE YOU OUT GETTING MORE GUMMY BEARS?
2. The whole B-9 subplot was utterly unnecessary to the plot and exists solely to offset Data's death. Simply awful.
B-9 WAS A PLANT USED BY SHINZON TO GET INFORMATION FROM THE ENTERPRISE, AND ALSO A THEMATIC PARALLEL TO PICARD'S CLONE. THIS STORY WAS A STORY ABOUT IDENTITY. WAS IS GREAT LITERATURE? NO, BUT IT TACKLED A MEANINGUL ISSUE IN ITS OWN STAR TREK-Y WAY, AS THE BEST OF TREK HAS ALWAYS DONE.
3. The Reman boarding party. What the hell is going on here? The Enterprise has a crew of roughly 1,000 people. The Remans, a hostile force, board the ship and all Picard sends are FIVE security officers? What a crock! I have no military training, but even I wouldn't send FIVE security officers
A REAL NITPICK. AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY IN STAR TREK RIGHT FROM THE START? I MEAN, WHY DO YOU EXPECT UTTER AND TOTAL REALISM FROM THIS FILM? STAR TREK HAS ALWAYS DONE THIS.
4. The Scimitar is the most lethal, most powerful ship ever to come out of the Romulan empire. And what do the Romulans send to stop it? Two Warbirds. Two. That's like the United States trying to invade Iraq with two helicopters.
UMM, IF YOU DIDN'T PICK UP ON IT THEY HAD RATHER SHORT NOTICE. THOSE WERE OBVIOUSLY THE ONLY TWO CLOSE ENOUGH.
5. Really really REALLY REALLY bad plot devices. Picard beams over to the Scimitar... and guess what? Come on, you know what happens. BOOM! The transporter breaks.
WELL THEY HAD JUST BEEN PUMMELLED BY THE SCIMITAR. IT WAS QUITE PROBABLE. OR WERE YOU OUT GETTING EVEN MORE GUMMY BEARS?
THIS AGAIN, I DON'T UNDERSTAND. YOU LIKE TREK IN GENERAL I ASSUME, BUT PICK ON NEMESIS FOR PLOT TURNS THAT ARE FAR MORE PROBABLE THAN THOSE IN MOST TREK. EVER NOTICE HOW IN TOS, EVERY TIME THEY BEAMED DOWN TO A PLANET SOMETHING WOULD GO WRONG WITH THEIR COMMUNICATORS?
http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum31/HTML/002123.html
Re: Check out this guy's excuses for NEM
Posted: 2002-12-20 12:55am
by Darth Wong
Master of Ossus wrote:This is from Trekbbs.com. I'm finding the site to be enormously entertaining because a large portion of its population do things like this, and then claim that the movie is "100X better than Lucas' sorry AOTC." This was posted in response to someone who was pointing out some of the plot-holes in the movie, and the letters IN ALL CAPS were written to respond to the initial points, which are in regular letters. Note that the ALL CAPS thing was put in by the second poster. I did not edit his post in any way.
That guy's pathetic.
THEY FLEW INTO THE CLOUD ON PURPOSE BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T REACH THE FLEET IN TIME, HOPING THE CLOUD WOULD GIVE THEM SOME COVER. WERE YOU OUT GETTING MORE GUMMY BEARS?
How would this explain the fact that they didn't realize what the cloud would do to them until they were already in it? You obviously didn't plan something if you don't figure it out until after the fact.
B-9 WAS A PLANT USED BY SHINZON TO GET INFORMATION FROM THE ENTERPRISE, AND ALSO A THEMATIC PARALLEL TO PICARD'S CLONE. THIS STORY WAS A STORY ABOUT IDENTITY. WAS IS GREAT LITERATURE? NO, BUT IT TACKLED A MEANINGUL ISSUE IN ITS OWN STAR TREK-Y WAY, AS THE BEST OF TREK HAS ALWAYS DONE.
Ah, so it's OK to insert a ridiculous, transparent, and asinine plot device as long as it's done in a "Star Trek-y way?"
A REAL NITPICK. AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY IN STAR TREK RIGHT FROM THE START? I MEAN, WHY DO YOU EXPECT UTTER AND TOTAL REALISM FROM THIS FILM? STAR TREK HAS ALWAYS DONE THIS.
This is the best part. He thinks that sending more than 5 security officers to repel a boarding attempt would be "utter and total realism", and that Star Trek's predilection for this kind of stupidity is its own excuse.
UMM, IF YOU DIDN'T PICK UP ON IT THEY HAD RATHER SHORT NOTICE. THOSE WERE OBVIOUSLY THE ONLY TWO CLOSE ENOUGH.
Of course, no one would keep more than two warships close to their precious homeworld. Mind you, this form of stupidity is common in Star Trek (how many times have we heard that there's only one ship in range of Earth?), but common stupidity is still stupidity.
WELL THEY HAD JUST BEEN PUMMELLED BY THE SCIMITAR. IT WAS QUITE PROBABLE. OR WERE YOU OUT GETTING EVEN MORE GUMMY BEARS?
It was "probable" for the transporter to be damaged just enough to let Picard beam over but nobody else?
THIS AGAIN, I DON'T UNDERSTAND. YOU LIKE TREK IN GENERAL I ASSUME, BUT PICK ON NEMESIS FOR PLOT TURNS THAT ARE FAR MORE PROBABLE THAN THOSE IN MOST TREK. EVER NOTICE HOW IN TOS, EVERY TIME THEY BEAMED DOWN TO A PLANET SOMETHING WOULD GO WRONG WITH THEIR COMMUNICATORS?
I didn't notice that. Their communicators always worked unless there was some kind of jamming in effect, which is hardly as silly as a damaged transporter sending precisely one man perfectly before failing (and not having seen the movie, I must ask: why is Picard the point-man? Do people normally send their highest ranking officer into a hot zone as the point man?).
That's just sad, MoO. It must be either entertaining or depressing for you to be monitoring these clowns.
Posted: 2002-12-20 12:59am
by Master of Ossus
At times I find it hilariously funny, and at other times I find it infuriating. This guy is just funny, because he is so clearly willing to bend what actually happened in the movie in order to justify its plot-gaps. When they're saying that movies like AotC, TTT, and TWoK compare unfavorably with Nemesis, though, I get really mad at them, as I literally cannot see any reason why anyone would think that that is the case.
Re: Check out this guy's excuses for NEM
Posted: 2002-12-20 04:14am
by neoolong
Darth Wong wrote:WELL THEY HAD JUST BEEN PUMMELLED BY THE SCIMITAR. IT WAS QUITE PROBABLE. OR WERE YOU OUT GETTING EVEN MORE GUMMY BEARS?
It was "probable" for the transporter to be damaged just enough to let Picard beam over but nobody else?
Doesn't the Enterprise have shuttles? Don't shuttles have transporters? Couldn't someone run down to the shuttle bay after the Enterprise's transporters have been knocked out so they can then beam over?
Wait, what am I thinking. That would be the smart thing to do. Thus it is not Star Trek-y enough.
Posted: 2002-12-20 05:24am
by Gil Hamilton
THEY FLEW INTO THE CLOUD ON PURPOSE BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T REACH THE FLEET IN TIME, HOPING THE CLOUD WOULD GIVE THEM SOME COVER. WERE YOU OUT GETTING MORE GUMMY BEARS?
Actually, if this person wasn't out in the lobby getting gummy bears, he'd have realized that they weren't aware of the clouds properties when they were heading into it. Picard only realized when the screen went static-y (why did the screen go static-y, anyway when it was inside the ship) did he realize that it would be the perfect place for Shinzon to hit him (and his revelation was swiftly granted).
B-9 WAS A PLANT USED BY SHINZON TO GET INFORMATION FROM THE ENTERPRISE, AND ALSO A THEMATIC PARALLEL TO PICARD'S CLONE. THIS STORY WAS A STORY ABOUT IDENTITY. WAS IS GREAT LITERATURE? NO, BUT IT TACKLED A MEANINGUL ISSUE IN ITS OWN STAR TREK-Y WAY, AS THE BEST OF TREK HAS ALWAYS DONE.
Thematic paralell, my ass! Shinzon was evil and dangerous, B-4 had the android equivlent of mental retardation. Shinzon was in control of his actions and was more than a little crazy, B-4 was not in control of his actions at all. Shinzon was integrel to the plot, B-4 was a useless plot device that they could have safely left out of the movie (and should of, I though the B-4 subplot was sick).
A REAL NITPICK. AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT HASN'T ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY IN STAR TREK RIGHT FROM THE START? I MEAN, WHY DO YOU EXPECT UTTER AND TOTAL REALISM FROM THIS FILM? STAR TREK HAS ALWAYS DONE THIS.
No excuse, little Trekker.
UMM, IF YOU DIDN'T PICK UP ON IT THEY HAD RATHER SHORT NOTICE. THOSE WERE OBVIOUSLY THE ONLY TWO CLOSE ENOUGH.
They were spitting distance from Romulus. You'd think their be a bit more armed ships about.
WELL THEY HAD JUST BEEN PUMMELLED BY THE SCIMITAR. IT WAS QUITE PROBABLE. OR WERE YOU OUT GETTING EVEN MORE GUMMY BEARS?
Ah... so it was pummeled just enough to work once and then burn out? No redundant systems? Of course not.
Posted: 2002-12-20 07:20am
by Col. Crackpot
Why is there ALWAYS some damned magical cloud in space that disrupts the normal operation of the ship! most every combat situation in trek in TNG and the movies involes some damned foolish cloud of some sort! A big space ship eating cloud tried to destroy the earth, Kahn chased kirk into one, The Ent-A visited 'god' in the middle of one, the Borg chased picard into one, Jellico chased the Cardassians into another damned cloud, Janeway got lost and thrown halfway across the galaxy in some friggin cloud.....kirk and picard get sucked into a flashing sparkly cloud to live out their fantasies for eternity...and now this! i for one am sick of goddamned magic space clouds!
Posted: 2002-12-20 08:04am
by Steven Snyder
4. The Scimitar is the most lethal, most powerful ship ever to come out of the Romulan empire. And what do the Romulans send to stop it? Two Warbirds. Two. That's like the United States trying to invade Iraq with two helicopters.
UMM, IF YOU DIDN'T PICK UP ON IT THEY HAD RATHER SHORT NOTICE. THOSE WERE OBVIOUSLY THE ONLY TWO CLOSE ENOUGH.
I just realized something, though many of you have probably already reached this point earlier.
In Star Trek they send out their ships, even apparently warships, alone. I am quite sure that in our modern naval tactics we send out not single ships for a task, but battlegroups of multiple ships that complement each other's strengths.
Don't any of the ST civilizations have battlegroups that are routinely sent on patrol? After the Borg, Dominion War, and all the other combat that has happened, you would think that Star Fleet would realize that space is a dangerous place and start organizing some Task Forces to keep their borders and maybe even their home world safe.
An analogy to this kind of thinking would be that if a foreign power sent a powerful warship to destroy Washington DC, the US could only muster a ship or two to intercept that incoming vessel. Shouldn't there be some sort of 'home guard' there to defend earth, just in case yet another evil force comes to destroy it...I mean come on this is nearly a weekly event in the Trek universe.
Posted: 2002-12-20 11:32am
by Ghost Rider
Yes, but that requires logic and/or common sense...which has been shown throughout Trek as being suprisingly deficent since the TNG days.
Posted: 2002-12-20 01:28pm
by apocolypse
Okay, this is my take on only having two Valdur class ships attack the Scimitar. (note: I could easily be wrong) Shinzon had backing from the military in his plans, so most of them were content to let him do as he pleased, but the two that we saw wanted to oppose him and so they went on their own. I didn't think of it so much as the Romulans could only send those two ships as much as most of the military was in support, so they did nothing about it.
Posted: 2002-12-20 01:41pm
by Mr Bean
Intresting idea but sounds reaaly bad
Posted: 2002-12-20 01:43pm
by apocolypse
Just curious, how so?
Posted: 2002-12-20 01:46pm
by Mr Bean
The fact the Military Dicatorship in power has such little control over its military(Which it needs to stay in power)
Posted: 2002-12-20 01:49pm
by apocolypse
Oh...meaning that the military that seized control let the two Valdur class go rogue? Could be maybe they didn't think of them as much of a threat to the Scimitar? (they really didn't do much to the ship) I dunno, just my theory.
Posted: 2002-12-20 02:06pm
by Steven Snyder
Intresting idea but sounds reaaly bad
To elaborate on my opinion of why it sounds bad.
#1. Releasing an unstable, lab-grown, medical experiment, gone renegade being to go about the known galaxy and commit acts of genocide and destruction is a formula for disaster. There are other powers in the galaxy that would not look kindly on such behavior. The Klingons, Vulcans, and Cardassians all have a history of bad blood between themselves and the Romulans, and it is likely that each of them would rather go to war with the Romulans, rather than sit around and wait for their turn to be destroyed. No sane Romulan military commander is going to sit idly by while a genetic freak is about to plunge his homeland into a war they cannot possibly win.
#2. As #1 but remember that the Romulan military commander probably knows that it was his race (not the humans) that is ultimately responsible for all the pain and suffering of said genetic freak. It is likely that once he is done with the Federation, that freak will come back to Romulus to finish the job he started.
The Romulan military is in a lose-lose situation if they don't try and stop Shinzon. Either the freak starts a galactic war that Romulans cannot possibly win, or the Freak comes back to Romulus with a powerful weapon he could use to put himself (a human) in control of the Romulan Empire. The romulans have nothing to gain by helping Shinzon, and everything to lose if he succeeds.