Patrick Degan wrote:TheDarkling wrote:The Enterprise E at the time was going around seeking allies (Ref Insurrection), allies as in small little nations not big empires and again this is a red herring SF gave him his orders his carrying them out doesn't show disloyalty.
Sisko was ordered to leave the station to be captured intact by the Dominion? Do kindly quote the episode reference on
that one.
Sisko contacts SF and they tell him he isn't getting any backup, I'm also pretty sure at this point he was given his orders on what to do (they knew holding the station wasn't going to happen without more ships).
Or do you think SF simply didn't give him any orders on what to do although they did tell him all about why he couldn't have any ships.
The we move onto the fact that even if it was his choice (since you are acting like some wayward AI from TOS and shouting "does not compute" no the issue of SF actually giving orders) and I can't possibly understand how it could be there were still reasons for him not to do it (I'm sure killing neutrals in a war and destroying their civilians and personel is against some Federation codes of conduct).
As for "seeking allies", small little nations are hardly much of a help in a war with a superpower. You seek your allies among powers with the military force to tip the balance of the war to your side's favour. That is the logic of superpower relations in war, and alliances are forged out of mutual interest and convenience, not P.R. or idealism.
Yes and going around blowing up your allies installations is going to encourage people to sign up
even the Dominion got this concept which is why they treated Bajor correctly.
Military logic belongs in no discussion about the Feds and you know it
, seriously though what the Feds should have done has no bearing on Sisko’s loyalty.
It does indeed have a bearing if he sacrifices the one certain method for securing the Alpha Quadrant from invasion.
and he does this when again?
I asked for you to prove it was possible to close the wormhole, you can't since O'Brien doesn't think its possible even if it is the fault doesn't lie with Sisko.
That O'Brien is incapable of thinking of anything other than technowank solutions instead of basic, brute-force solutions is down to his incompetence. I've already demonstrated one possible method for closing the wormhole and a logical one at that.
Yes and subspace conforms to the laws of our universe... oh no wait.
and again you can't possibly atribute this to Sisko but you just seem to want to attack anything and everything to do with DS9 (you can see this right?).
O'Brien's incompentence (which again you still can't prove since his knowledge of wormholes outranks yours (there is a common tendancy among certain people here to rate their opinon about canon fact, if O'Brien says it can't be destroyed and you can't prove it can be then the fact stands)).
I have seen the episode and Sisko believed that aliens that could see the future were telling him something and surprise THEY WERE, by heeding their warning he helped both the Federation and Bajor.
Sisko's bablings about the Locusts had
zero effect on the unfolding of events, other than to demolish the Bajoran entry into the Federation. Bajor ended up under Dominion rule because Sisko did nothing to prevent the Dominion from flying in reinforcement convoys for
months before the outbreak of war. He did a half-assed job of blockading the wormhole access and one which in the end failed when the Cardassians figured out how to overwhelm the mine replication capacity, which was made possible in part because they had access to the station's computers which were rebuilt quickly enough by the Cardassian engineers. Without the intervention of the wormhole aliens, the Federation would have been conquered, but had there been no wormhole, there never would have been the danger of Gamma Quadrant reinforcements in the first place.
Yet again you expound on the wormhole being there is his fault, you have to PROVE this first and you havent been able to but only complain about O'Brien, which has no bearing on Sisko.
If Bajor had entered the Federation it would have had a very rough time compared to not having any troops on Bajor at all (you are either ignoring facts through dishonesty, stupidity or because you are so hell bent on being right you can't think straight).
You failed to address the point but continued to whine about the wormhole something which hacve still yet to prove displayed what you say it displayed (or even proved that the wormhole could have been destroyed).
Then the fact that you think Sisko should have mined the wormhole off his own back without getting orders (which in effect means Sisko declares war on the Dominion without his governments say so) is insane - please look at where this crusade agsint Sisko is taking you.
A mechanic examines my car just like the wormhole aliens can examine the future (since they can see it) therefore the wormholes aliens telling Sisko something is going to happen needed consideration.
Now Sisko can go with his gut and take it to be a message from the wormhole aliens or he can ignore it - he goes with his gut and makes the right decision something you seem eager to ignore.
I ignore nothing. I said Sisko's mental state was questionable; a condition following his exposure to the Orb of Prophecy. I said that his "vision" was not the same as hard intelligence discovered through observation and surveillance. In other words, actually examining hard evidence. And your pathetic argument that he "went with his gut" and made the decision which saved Bajor is belied by the fact that the planet ended up under Dominion rule anyway.
OK at this pouint I have to ask if you saw the show - Bajor didn't end up under Dominion rule anymore than it was under federation rule before hand - not noe Jem Hadar set foot omn Bajor, the government still ruled the planet and control of the station was shared as it was before.
If Bajor had been a Federation world it would have had troops ladning on it and it would have been placed under Dominion rule, the differance is between the setup they had with the Federation or the cardassian occupation - please tell me you either didn't watch the show or simply forgot because assuming the two setups are similiar is extreme idiocy.
You can complain about his mental state whihc may have been questionable but he acted on intel from aliens in the know and he DID make the right call.
If Bajor had been a Federation member world it would have been occupied and the Federation would have been forced to try and save it (thus meaning the attack SF deemed more important than the wormhole wouldn't have gone ahead). In the actual timeline Bajor was not occupied but simply switched defence partners from the Feds to the Dominion, therefore Sisko saved Bajor from occupation (and the resistance that would follow which would bring about death and destruction).
"Switched defence partners" in the same way as Vichy France did after the Germans moved in. You still had a Dominion military presence in the Bajoran system, which includes troops. The Bajorans wound up with foreign occupiers once again.
No troops set foot on Bajor (in fact after 3 months there was an uproar about 40 unarmed Vorta heading onto the lpanet) and on many ocassions Weyoun told Dukat that the Dominion had to honour its treaty and respect Bajors independance to prove they could be trusted to the AQ.
Again choice between the setup they had with teh Federation (sharing defense of Bajor and the station) compared to being occupied like the were by the Cardassians, if you can't see the distinction there is something wrong smewhere and if you can't see tjhat Sisko saved lives then I fear there is no hope for you.
You have yet to show him placing his rapport with the wormhole aliens above saving his nation
I guess not even trying to find a way to collapse the wormhole doesn't qualify as a demonstration.
His technical crew said it wasn't possible, he believed them and the people with the most understanding of wormhole physics would have been given the task of figuring out how to collapse it - that is outside Sisko purview and is done to the federation science council (or actually the trill science council who came up with the orignal plan).
he in fact ignores Bajor prophecy on at least one occasion, defies the prophets at least twice (to go to Chintoka and to get married)
For which he tries to vision-quest his way back into their favour, as seen in the opening three episodes of season 7.
No he tries to help out the wormhole aliens because they got injured on his watch and he felt respnosible (which to a degree he was).
and he goes to argue to help get aid for his nation even when the prophets frown on interfering in "the game".
A half-point on that one; Sisko convinces the wormhole aliens to intervene, but not for the Federation but rather for Bajor. In this instance, he makes the play that is likely to work (that it was a horrible
deus ex-machina is another issue entirely). But on the flip-side, you've got him having to ask the intervention of the wormhole aliens to prevent the Federation's defeat in a war which would not have been imminent or may never even have happened if he had put national interest first and collapsed the wormhole to begin with.
He can't collapse the wormhole stop stating your self deluding fantasy as fact, he tried, he failed and then it was out of his hands.
Sisko did not leave SF to go on a vision quest and when he goes to Tyree it is to reopen the wormhole the fact that the orb of the emissary also gives him a vision or two is immaterial.
Even you can't be dense enough not to recognise the metaphor.
Well Im not the one who can't tell the differance between an occupation and an alliance.
I care not about the metaphor - it wasn't a vision quest (you use that term as a subtle attack on Sisko) it was the use of a communication device to contact some aliens and aid them in winning a battle, nothing more.
Also you would do well to actually watch the episode for the parts you highlighted about him finding out about his past all come from his father and have nothing whatsoever to do with visions (he does get one vision of a face but he doesn't actually get any info from a vision quest just saying "hey dad who is this?") or his trip to Tyree.
That's right, Darkling, try to nitpick the issue to death to avoid facing the rather obvious answer to what Sisko is seeking —to regain the favour of the wormhole aliens.
You sayy this but where is your proof? you have this built up version of Sisko in your head but I think this thread has shown that your idea of Sisko (and Trek in general probably) bares nothing in common with actual trek and is not based in canon.
Given that you just misconstrued an entire episode yes I would actually like to see evidence rather than taking things on faith.
You can't misconstrue what is plain in the episode material. It is you who is trying to find every bullshit exception to deny what Sisko is truly seeking.
If its that obvious then it shouldn't be too hard to prove it - he wants to correct his errors sure but regain favour? I can't recall seeing him ever grasp for favuor with the wormhole aliens however you must have a wealth of evidence to present and I await this well thought out case.
You have three main gripes against Sisko.
1)He follows orders from SF and doesn't destroy the station (yeah following orders = disloyalty alright).
He leaves an intact military facility to fall into enemy hands so as not to "upset" the Bajorans. That is placing his role as Emissary over his duty as a Starfleet officer. And while that is not disloyalty, it is certainly a demonstration of conflicted loyalty.
Except he had orders on what to do and would have probably have been going against SF rules if he were to destroy a neutrals property (and he sure as hell would have failed in his mission to bring Bajor into the the Federation).
2)He believes his technical advisors when they tell him something cannot be done (and what they cannot be done may not be possible, something you have yet to prove is possible apart from saynig they mUST be wrong because you think they are).
I've pointed out a logical approach to the problem. Kindly outline how a brute-force application of sufficent energy to overcome the wormhole's field stability threshold is unfeasible, please.
I havent the faintest idea how artificially created wormholes function (in trek or otherwise) O'Brien does and he makes it cleart it can't be doen now lets see - O'Brien has studied wormholes, lives next door to one, has traveled through one.
You - thinks it should work against what a canon character states.
Your opinion < O'Briens statement (CANON)
3)He believes his "visions" to be messages from aliens who can see the future and acts on them (and in the process benefiting both the Federation and carrying out his standing orders which is to aid Bajor).
Since Bajor wound up a Dominion outpost, the "benefit" you keep yammering on about is questionable to say the least. It's funny to see you standing up and arguing that making decisions based upon psychic visions received while in a questionable mental state is even remotely sensible.
Not its isn't questionable its obvious to anyone with a brain , Alliance or occupation.
Psychic visions no however the Wormhole aliens do communicate in this manner and it has been shown they know the future and you keep dodging the fact he made the correct call.
4)When he believes himself unfit to command he has himself releaved of duty instead of carrying on and puting his crew in danger.
He left because he felt he failed as the Emissary first and failed as a Starfleet officer second. His guilt over ignoring the wormhole aliens was the driver of his decisions and not any rational assessment of his command abilities.
He states that he failed as both and the fact he failed for the first time ever as a SF officier seems to bother him more however thats just me opinion (see how I seperated that from fact).
He felt guilty because his ignoring he wormhole aliens lead to the death of his friend and harming of an entire race of people (the wormhole aliens), he sort a way to rectify his mistake which he did however it is clear that with the guilt he didn't feel upto command and having someone with unresolved issues that may affect his judgement in command isn't a good idea.
Well to me it seems in had only acted in a questionable manner in 3 where he went with his instincts (which proved to be correct), all you can say here is he is impulsive or stupid not that he favours Bajor's wellbeing over his nations.
Only if we ignore the fact that he puts his role as Emissary first, that he will not close off the Bajorans' phone connection to their gods, and pulls himself out of duty during a war of national survival to regain their favour when he feels he's failed as Pope Sisko I.
You haven't proved it was to regain their favour and you admit yourself guilt is a factor further up - make up your mind please.
You also have yet to prove he had the chocie to close the wormhole and didn't so please stop stating it as if you have proved it, I can prove that when he does have the choice he goes for it (Ref In purgatories Shadow) so please show you evidence (this is only the what? third time I have asked).
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Meanwhile I have given instances where he has gone against the will of the wormhole aliens (infact far more than you have provided) yet you came with an opinion that you have ingrained into yourself (you probably dislike the show or Sisko (which is fair enough) and thus invent these reasons (which isn't).
It is an opinion which is based upon what is actually in the TV show. Just as my opinion about the workings of gravity is based upon how it actually affects me.[/quote]
If it were rooted in canon bedrock you wouldn't be having such a hard time proving it.
Its clear you can't backup your claims yet you still cling to them - very odd behaviour indeed.
"Can't back my claims"? Oh, that's rich. All I have to do is keep pointing out the actual episode material for however long you wish to keep up composing your apologia for this series.
Yes all you have to down is point out episodes then twist what actually happens (Sisko wishes to regain favour) ignore what is actually said (O'Brien staes its not possible but you gloss over this) or simply forget (the incidents I have put forward that clash with your assement).
I have to wonder how long I shuld sit here and watch you state black is white over and over agian before I tire before your wall of ignorance (the fact that you blame Sisko for not closing the wormhole when he tried and failed and then was informed it culdn't be done shows you seem to have departed the land of reason a few miles back).
~Crayz9000
