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Posted: **2006-08-02 01:05am**

I was recently was going through The Search for Spock and The Voyage Home, and I can't figure out what rank Scotty is. He called the Excelsior's captain "sir," but was wearing a captain's insignia with command colors. Then he's back to commander and operations in TVH. Which movie has the costume error?

Posted: **2006-08-02 01:30am**

Scotty was told he'd be taking over as "captain of engineering" for Excelsior.

My bet would be on TVH having it wrong... wasn't he back to captain's insignia by TFF?

Posted: **2006-08-02 01:51am**

In the briefing at the beginning of TUC you can see a captain's insignia on his uniform, even though he's got the gold "services" strap and undershirt . I've always thought his staying in engineering was akin to Spock's remaining as science officer and first officer - he got promoted in rank but stayed with the job he knew and loved. In Ship of the Line he tells Picard that calling the captain "sir" is a an old habit and that he couldn't think of calling the captain anything else - except for a few choice adjectives now and then.

Funny, now that this has been brought up, it reminds me of that DS9 episode where O'Brien tells Worf that most of the engineering crew didn't even go to Starfleet Academy, which I assume means that they would have very limited promotion possibilities.

Posted: **2006-08-02 03:19pm**

Scotty was probably either just being formal or, as Quorthon mentions, using 'sir' out of habit. As well, the Captain commanding the ship takes predecence in the pecking order above a Captain in another section of the ship. Same reason why an Admiral might command a fleet, but the Captain commands the ship the Admiral's on.

Posted: **2006-08-02 08:51pm**

Also, Scotty would have been relatively junior-in-grade. Seniority amongst officers of the same nominal rank is always reckoned by date of promotion.

Posted: **2006-08-06 12:25pm**

Also, Scotty being an Engineer was a staff officer or restricted line officer or some-such. If he moved over to the white-collar, he'd have to go through something akin to the Royal Navy's perisher (or the USN equivalent) and spend a while learning how to be a ship Commander, probably spend some time being groomed for a Captaincy and given command of some corvette until he gets experiance enough to command a 1st rate ship like an Excelsior.

Posted: **2006-08-06 12:51pm**

Patrick Degan wrote:Also, Scotty would have been relatively junior-in-grade. Seniority amongst officers of the same nominal rank is always reckoned by date of promotion.

I'd figure it was more like how Sam calls Cameron 'Sir' in SG-1 due to Cam being the officer in command, despite their relative rank and Sam's relative seniority.

Posted: **2006-08-06 01:21pm**

Then he's back to commander and operations in TVH. Which movie has the costume error?

TVH has the error, possibly because Scotty never wore the captain's uniform after his promotion (he's only seen in his black jacket during most of TSFS and TVH) and they might've accidentally reused his Commander's uniform.

Funny, now that this has been brought up, it reminds me of that DS9 episode where O'Brien tells Worf that most of the engineering crew didn't even go to Starfleet Academy, which I assume means that they would have very limited promotion possibilities.

From the script of Starship Down:

Like Muniz and most of the other Engineering N.D.s, Stevens is an enlisted man. These guys didn't go to Starfleet Academy, they're not as polished as our people, and they have their own work habits and codes of behavior.

O'Brien himself was a non-Academy NCO but that didn't stop him from advancing through merit. He ended up as a Chief of Operations of a starbase, after all; an enlisted should be able to go up to Master Chief Petty Officer, but not into line officer ranks.

Posted: **2006-08-07 12:29am**

For what it's worth (re: very little) his biography over at StarTrek.com says he did in fact go to the academy, and that he was promoted to captain in 2285, the same year he was transferred to the Excelsior. Of course, it also says that he oversaw the test of Excelsior's transwarp drive. Maybe he was promoted to Captain earlier in the year before the Enterprise had her training mission, and was transferred to Excelsior upon his return. If, when Morrow said "report there tomorrow as Captain of engineering", he was giving Scotty a promotion and a transfer at the same time, that's the most peculiar promotion I've ever heard of.

Posted: **2006-08-07 12:50am**

O'Brien himself was a non-Academy NCO but that didn't stop him from advancing through merit. He ended up as a Chief of Operations of a starbase, after all; an enlisted should be able to go up to Master Chief Petty Officer, but not into line officer ranks.

I could have sworn, though he was originally suppost to be enlisted, they retconned him to a Chief Warrent Officer of some sort.

Posted: **2006-08-07 12:55am**

Knife wrote:
O'Brien himself was a non-Academy NCO but that didn't stop him from advancing through merit. He ended up as a Chief of Operations of a starbase, after all; an enlisted should be able to go up to Master Chief Petty Officer, but not into line officer ranks.
I could have sworn, though he was originally suppost to be enlisted, they retconned him to a Chief Warrent Officer of some sort.

Let's not forget his first Trek appearance ever, where he was an unnamed Lieutenant (or was it Ensign?) in "Encounter at Farpoint".

Posted: **2006-08-07 01:53am**

Ex Astris Scientia has a good blurb about O'Brian's weird rank errors.

Posted: **2006-08-07 11:35am**

Knife wrote:
O'Brien himself was a non-Academy NCO but that didn't stop him from advancing through merit. He ended up as a Chief of Operations of a starbase, after all; an enlisted should be able to go up to Master Chief Petty Officer, but not into line officer ranks.
I could have sworn, though he was originally suppost to be enlisted, they retconned him to a Chief Warrent Officer of some sort.

O'Brien even makes the "don't call me sir, I work for a living" comment so I'm pretty sure that eventually he was considered a Chief Petty Officer. Maybe by the time he was on DS9 and got his own funky rank insignia he might have been some sort of Warrant Officer but I haven't ever seen anything where Trek mentions Warrants.

I think in the episode of TNG where Worf's adoptive father tours the E-D they run into O'Brien and Worf's father comments about also having been a Chief Petty Officer.

EDIT: Starship Titanic's link actually covers about all I said and more accurately I would imagine.

Posted: **2006-08-07 07:18pm**

Darth Quorthon wrote:For what it's worth (re: very little) his biography over at StarTrek.com says he did in fact go to the academy, and that he was promoted to captain in 2285, the same year he was transferred to the Excelsior. Of course, it also says that he oversaw the test of Excelsior's transwarp drive. Maybe he was promoted to Captain earlier in the year before the Enterprise had her training mission, and was transferred to Excelsior upon his return. If, when Morrow said "report there tomorrow as Captain of engineering", he was giving Scotty a promotion and a transfer at the same time, that's the most peculiar promotion I've ever heard of.

I'd hardly call Scotty's promotion strange. He's being sent to oversee a major project for Starfleet. With the Enterprise being decomissioned, I'd say Starfleet was basically trying to make him a senior, possibly administrating officer in R&D or something like that. With his experience there's no reason not to.

Another note: In ST III Scotty is wearing the Commander's insignia during Morrow's comments. When we next see him on the Excelsior he has the Captain's insignia. So the promotion definetly seems to happen there.

I always thought it was interesting (and this confused me more for awhile) that when Scotty helped initiate the Ent-Nil's self-destruct, he identified himself as a Commander. I guess since the Ent-Nil was being decomissioned nobody bothered updating her memory banks or something...

Posted: **2006-08-08 05:31pm**

Stofsk wrote:Let's not forget his first Trek appearance ever, where he was an unnamed Lieutenant (or was it Ensign?) in "Encounter at Farpoint".

They later establish him as O'Brien in "All Good Things."

O'Brien is somewhat uncomfortable in the presence of
the new Captain. Picard finishes working and hands
O'Brien a PADD.

PICARD
Mister O'Brien, use these
specifications to bypass the
secondary plasma inducer.

O'Brien takes the PADD, concern showing on his face.

O'BRIEN
You have to realize, sir... this
isn't exactly my area of
expertise. The Chief Engineer
should be making these
modifications.

PICARD
But the Chief Engineer isn't on
board yet.
(beat)
Mister O'Brien... trust me. I
know you can do this.

STAR TREK: "All Good Things... " - 03/10/94 - ACT THREE 33.

34 CONTINUED:

He smiles at O'Brien, whom he knows well and fondly.

PICARD
All those years you spent as a
child... building model starship
engines... were well worth it.

O'BRIEN
(surprised)
How'd you know that, sir?

PICARD
From... your Starfleet records.

Posted: **2006-08-09 12:04am**

Skylon wrote:
Darth Quorthon wrote:For what it's worth (re: very little) his biography over at StarTrek.com says he did in fact go to the academy, and that he was promoted to captain in 2285, the same year he was transferred to the Excelsior. Of course, it also says that he oversaw the test of Excelsior's transwarp drive. Maybe he was promoted to Captain earlier in the year before the Enterprise had her training mission, and was transferred to Excelsior upon his return. If, when Morrow said "report there tomorrow as Captain of engineering", he was giving Scotty a promotion and a transfer at the same time, that's the most peculiar promotion I've ever heard of.
I'd hardly call Scotty's promotion strange. He's being sent to oversee a major project for Starfleet. With the Enterprise being decomissioned, I'd say Starfleet was basically trying to make him a senior, possibly administrating officer in R&D or something like that. With his experience there's no reason not to.

The only reason I thought it was odd was that it was so abrupt. Morrow just told him to report to the Excelsior and said nothing about a promotion to Captain, but perhaps that was covered off-screen.

Posted: **2006-08-09 12:10am**

He said Scotty was to report to Excelsior "as captain of engineering".

Posted: **2006-08-09 12:49am**

And Scotty tried to turn it down - what an ingrate.

At any rate, I guess what I feel is peculiar is pretty much irrelevant, so I'll drop it.

Posted: **2006-08-09 12:53am**

I'm pretty sure that Scotty has been consistently portrayed as a very unambitious officer whose first loyalty was to his ship and crew.

Posted: **2006-08-09 01:00am**

Uraniun235 wrote:I'm pretty sure that Scotty has been consistently portrayed as a very unambitious officer whose first loyalty was to his ship and crew.

As chief engineer he also has a love for the Enterprise in particular. ST3 showed us what he thought of Excelsior.

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When was Scotty Promoted to Captain?

When was Scotty Promoted to Captain?