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I hope not.

I just downloaded a very bad quality version of Nemesis and noticed during the battle Enterprise-E had hull hugging shields and not the bubble type shields they used in TNG. And those shields are what I call very though, compare to other ships in the trek Universe. I assume the Reman disruptors are equal powerful to the Romulans. A Galaxy class starship in TNG couldn't even take few shots from a Warbird without loosing 30% of their shield strength, [TNG, Tin man] but Enterprise-E took salvo after salvo of shots from the Scimitar and they held very long in battle.

Dark Primus wrote:I hope not.

I just downloaded a very bad quality version of Nemesis and noticed during the battle Enterprise-E had hull hugging shields and not the bubble type shields they used in TNG. And those shields are what I call very though, compare to other ships in the trek Universe. I assume the Reman disruptors are equal powerful to the Romulans. A Galaxy class starship in TNG couldn't even take few shots from a Warbird without loosing 30% of their shield strength, [TNG, Tin man] but Enterprise-E took salvo after salvo of shots from the Scimitar and they held very long in battle.

It does seem that the Enterprise does have some seriously powerful shielding. Not only that but its hull hugging shields did better then the hull hugging shields of the Dominion war. Traditionally bubble shields offer greater protection against damage but do not last as long because of their total size. Hull hugging shields allow greater seepage through the shields but tend to last longer because of their smaller total size. It seems in the case of the Enterprise in Nemesis that it was getting bubble type protection with hull hugging shields. Its possible Starfleet has a new type of shielding in use. That or its possible that the Sovereign class has enough power generation to put up very strong shields compared to other ships. The Sovereign is most widely accepted as a combat first type of vesel. The original Galaxy class was not and its original shields depicted this.

Alyeska wrote:It does seem that the Enterprise does have some seriously powerful shielding. Not only that but its hull hugging shields did better then the hull hugging shields of the Dominion war. Traditionally bubble shields offer greater protection against damage but do not last as long because of their total size. Hull hugging shields allow greater seepage through the shields but tend to last longer because of their smaller total size. It seems in the case of the Enterprise in Nemesis that it was getting bubble type protection with hull hugging shields. Its possible Starfleet has a new type of shielding in use. That or its possible that the Sovereign class has enough power generation to put up very strong shields compared to other ships. The Sovereign is most widely accepted as a combat first type of vesel. The original Galaxy class was not and its original shields depicted this.

Though it seems that it's protection isn't good enough. It's warp drive was busted on the opening shots of the battle. Appearantly, the shields weren't good enough to protect one of the Enterprises most vital components and the one that would allow it to possibly withdrawl from battle.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:It does seem that the Enterprise does have some seriously powerful shielding. Not only that but its hull hugging shields did better then the hull hugging shields of the Dominion war. Traditionally bubble shields offer greater protection against damage but do not last as long because of their total size. Hull hugging shields allow greater seepage through the shields but tend to last longer because of their smaller total size. It seems in the case of the Enterprise in Nemesis that it was getting bubble type protection with hull hugging shields. Its possible Starfleet has a new type of shielding in use. That or its possible that the Sovereign class has enough power generation to put up very strong shields compared to other ships. The Sovereign is most widely accepted as a combat first type of vesel. The original Galaxy class was not and its original shields depicted this.

Though it seems that it's protection isn't good enough. It's warp drive was busted on the opening shots of the battle. Appearantly, the shields weren't good enough to protect one of the Enterprises most vital components and the one that would allow it to possibly withdrawl from battle.

That had me wondering too. That was about the ONLY thing that was taken out through the shields. Asside for that, the shields provided damned near absolute protection. I am inclinded to say that the Enterprise just wasn't prepared for battle that instant even though they were at battle stations. Thats about the only way to explain why the ship recieved relatively minor damage from that point foward.

closet sci-fi fan wrote:It's possible that greater seepage was deemed acceptable in exchange for stronger shields considering the fact that the E-E has ablative armor. Maybe the E-D had bubble shields due to the fact that its hull is considerably weaker than the E-E and could not afford the seepage.

That is indeed a good point. However the E-E only took ONE hull scorring with its shields up. The Defiant took much higher levels of damage with its hull hugging shields. Your theory is most likely correct, but it should also be noted that the apparent greater energy output of the Sovereign class also means for greater total protection even when using hull hugging shields.

Alyeska wrote:That had me wondering too. That was about the ONLY thing that was taken out through the shields. Asside for that, the shields provided damned near absolute protection. I am inclinded to say that the Enterprise just wasn't prepared for battle that instant even though they were at battle stations. Thats about the only way to explain why the ship recieved relatively minor damage from that point foward.

I'm not sure that that's a very satisfactory explaination. The Enterprise is alone in the middle of hostile territory with an established enemy, battle alert just went up, they've began handing out phasers meaning that they expect to be boarded, they know there is at least one mother of a ship after them and who knows how many other Romulan ships converging on their position to attack them, and the only known reinforcements available are seven ships that are much too far away. I can't conceive how they wouldn't be ready for battle at that point.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:That had me wondering too. That was about the ONLY thing that was taken out through the shields. Asside for that, the shields provided damned near absolute protection. I am inclinded to say that the Enterprise just wasn't prepared for battle that instant even though they were at battle stations. Thats about the only way to explain why the ship recieved relatively minor damage from that point foward.

I'm not sure that that's a very satisfactory explaination. The Enterprise is alone in the middle of hostile territory with an established enemy, battle alert just went up, they've began handing out phasers meaning that they expect to be boarded, they know there is at least one mother of a ship after them and who knows how many other Romulan ships converging on their position to attack them, and the only known reinforcements available are seven ships that are much too far away. I can't conceive how they wouldn't be ready for battle at that point.

The possibility is that the shields do infact offer better protection but they had been caught unaware by the Scimitar sneaking up behind them and firing through the cloak. The Scimitar's first shots were going after the warp drives. After that point the Enterprise was more prepared and when the Scimitar tried taking out its weapons the Enterprise was manuevering and firing back.

Alyeska wrote:The possibility is that the shields do infact offer better protection but they had been caught unaware by the Scimitar sneaking up behind them and firing through the cloak. The Scimitar's first shots were going after the warp drives. After that point the Enterprise was more prepared and when the Scimitar tried taking out its weapons the Enterprise was manuevering and firing back.

It wasn't a sneak attack, they knew that Scimitar was coming for them, they just didn't know precisely when it was going to attack. They even knew the direction it was coming from, since they we're making all possible speed to the border, the only direction the Scimitar could have come was from behind. Like I said, I can't conceive how they could be possibly less prepared to fight than they were. Please explain why the Enterprise wasn't on maximum readiness at the time.

Also, what difference does it make? I'm not sure I get what you are saying. What does crew readiness have to do with the shields not working? The shields should have protected them regardless of whether the crew was prepared to fight and long as they had the wit to turn them on, which we know they did because Riker called for shields to be raised.

closet sci-fi fan wrote:The E-E at that point wasn't taking evasive maneuvers. It was traveling in a straight line. Its quite possible that the shots were only as effective as they were because the Scimitar could use pinpoint accuracy with its first shots. After the E-E began evasive manuevers, Scimitar could no longer make as accurate shots.

IIRC, there were several scorch marks on the E-Es hull during the battle. Maybe the shots were making it through to some degree. They just may have not hit vital systems.

Those scorch marks mirror an attack that the Scimitar made on the E-E once its shields were extremely low.

I don't understand the explanation. We know that the E-E's shields were up when it was fired upon. How would that attack (which was by marginal surprise) have penetrated the ship's defenses, when other attacks when the Scimitar was cloaked were incapable of doing so. If the shields needed to know where the enemy ship was, we would expect that the Scimitar, firing while it was cloaked, would do vastly more damage than it actually did, seeing as how one such volley disabled the E-E's warp engines.

Master of Ossus wrote:I don't understand the explanation. We know that the E-E's shields were up when it was fired upon. How would that attack (which was by marginal surprise) have penetrated the ship's defenses, when other attacks when the Scimitar was cloaked were incapable of doing so. If the shields needed to know where the enemy ship was, we would expect that the Scimitar, firing while it was cloaked, would do vastly more damage than it actually did, seeing as how one such volley disabled the E-E's warp engines.

Either Schinzon got a lucky shot or had time to line up the shots on a non responding non manuevering Enterprise. That is about the only way to explain why the Warpcore was taken out yet once combat started the Enterprise was able to keep most of its systems.

Alyeska wrote:Either Schinzon got a lucky shot or had time to line up the shots on a non responding non manuevering Enterprise. That is about the only way to explain why the Warpcore was taken out yet once combat started the Enterprise was able to keep most of its systems.

I'm still not following you. What does maneuvering have to do with shield strength? As long as the weapon hits, it should do just as much damage as whether it's moving in a straight line or turning. Please explain how maneuvering makes an energy field more effective.

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Either Schinzon got a lucky shot or had time to line up the shots on a non responding non manuevering Enterprise. That is about the only way to explain why the Warpcore was taken out yet once combat started the Enterprise was able to keep most of its systems.

I'm still not following you. What does maneuvering have to do with shield strength? As long as the weapon hits, it should do just as much damage as whether it's moving in a straight line or turning. Please explain how maneuvering makes an energy field more effective.

What I am trying to say is that the Scimitar was able to precisely aim its shots. With the E-Es shields bleed through is not as much of a problem so more precise shots are required.

I too noticed the apparently huge leap in shield power for the E-E. Has anyone speculated on the shield's strength? I get a consevative upper limit of 17 megatons per disruptor pulse-kinda sad, compared to Wars- (I'll post my reasoning if anyone asks) My problem is I don't know how many hits the E-E sustained. Two dozen? Three? Four?
If anyone remembers more clearly, I'm open

In real life, a moving target makes it harder to achieve good "dwell time", because it's hard to keep the laser pointed at the same spot on the target for the duration of the shot.

The Silence and I wrote:I too noticed the apparently huge leap in shield power for the E-E. Has anyone speculated on the shield's strength? I get a consevative upper limit of 17 megatons per disruptor pulse-kinda sad, compared to Wars- (I'll post my reasoning if anyone asks) My problem is I don't know how many hits the E-E sustained. Two dozen? Three? Four?
If anyone remembers more clearly, I'm open

My most conservative estimates peg the shielding of the Scimitar at less than 100 kilotons. How did you derive your figures for the E-E?

Edit: The E-E appeared to withstand at least fifty disruptor hits, though until the DVD comes out it will be impossible to generate an accurate figure.

Here are my calculations for the Scimitar's disruptors:
Well, phaser firepower has bugged me for a while (still does) so I tried to find examples I could use to attempt to approximate the demonstrated firepower. Oh, and 17 megatons is my upper conservative figure-using (I think) conservative data I came up with a range from 400 KT to 17 megatons for the Scimitar's disruptors.

I first decided to use vaporization energy of iron as a standard, as I thought iron might represent the break-even point for phaser tech. That is, if phasers use a chain reaction with lighter elements "vaporised" more easily than heavy, dense, elements, iron would be the middle ground, requiring as much energy to "vaporise" as to vaporise. From the TOS episode: Day of the Dove I found a srceen shot showing the destruction of a D-7 battle cruiser, with an official mass of 120,000 tons. The Enterprise fired 4 blue phaser bursts at the powerless vessel, resulting in this:


It appears most of the vessel was "vaporized" perhaps as much as 2/3 by mass. Assuming most of the vessel is iron, I found the energy to vaporize was 144.76 KT. Divided among the 4 shots=36.19 KT each
(2/3 of 120,000 tons=80,000 tons--8E7 kg x 7.6 MJ/kg=6.08E8 MJ-144.76 KT total 4 shots fired=36.19 KT each.)
The rate of fire is more questionable, as the blue phasers are ussually bursts, but I don't know how long each burst is. I assumed each burst was 0.5 to 0.25 seconds long and set up a range of 72.38 KT to 144.76 KT per second for each phaser emitter.
Well, this is all well and good, except ST vessels almost never do that much damage to each other-shielded or not. The best example is probably ST-TWOK, where two unshielded ships beat each other up repeatedly. Damage sustained by the E-nil appeared to be 3 to 5 cubic meters of armor "vaporized" per second-only 42.85 to 71.43 Isotons (tons of TNT-funny, isn't it? ) So, what gives? Are federation hulls that much stronger than Klingon hulls? Doubtful. Both incidents involved shieldless vessels, the only major difference was the presence of SIFs on the Enterprise. This seems like pretty good evidence for SIFs as a second line of defence, after the shields. If this is true, then the SIF of a constitution refit could offer 1013.30 to 3378.30 times the protection bare iron could provide! If this range is reliable, then it presumably could be applied to other incidents as well, such as ST-N. After loosing shields, the E-E was hit at least twice by disruptor fire, resulting in hull breaches of an unkown size. I pegged the "vaporized" area at anywhere from 6 to 12 meters accross. Obviously this makes a big difference, but without screen shots I cannot be sure. I doubt the hull is even 3 meters thick, so the shots wouldn't have "vaporized" a solid hemispere 6-12 meters accross, instead maybie as much as 50-80%, taking in to account any materials under the hull, such as bulkheads, or *possibly* the presence of a second hull. This is 28.28 to 361.91 cubic meters, 0.40 to 5.17 KT to vaporize. So, adding the SIF, I find a range of 405.32 to 17,465.81 KT. Admittidly this is a huge range, but screenshots should help clean it up. I say this is a conservative range because it ignores both the apparent presence of ablative armor on the E-E, and the likely-hood SIFs have advanced over ~100 years. In fact, shortly after the impacts, a weakening of the SIFs is reported on the bridge, lending some support to my theory. Of course, I may have phaser tech. completely off, making this overly generous, but I feel low megaton weaponry should be well within the capabilities of the federation by the time of TNG.